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Sidewards slide on the saddle.

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Sidewards slide on the saddle.

Old 05-11-21, 11:37 PM
  #26  
phughes
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Have you guys got any references for these WILD claims?
Seriously.

Being too high will cause you to rock and you will know quite quickly that your uncomfortable at that height. No injuries though. Seriously. What can you injure from being too high?
Being too low will cause you to grind on the cranks and put too much stress on your knees. The risks are well known.

I think his cranks are too long and this is the source of his problems. Adjusting the seat height probably won't fix his problems however I want to see his seat height up in order to confirm that his closed up leg angles aren't simply from a low saddle height.
There is a lot of truth in that. I went with shorter cranks as well. I had to lower the seat height, so the shorter cranks helped up top so my hips didn't close up too much.I was reaching at the bottom, but my hips were fine up top with the original cranks. Lowering the saddle helped at the bottom, but the shorter cranks felt better with the lower seat height. As far as seat height goes though, dropping to one side is a big indicator of a too high seat height, that coupled with the fact he is pedaling toes down pretty much cinches it.

As for a too high of a seat height not causing injuries, baloney, dropping to one side as he does is horrible on the hips, and lower back. Your body will accommodate a slightly lower saddle, more readily than a too high seat height. Once you make a change though, you shouldn't just mash away, you need tome to adjust to the position, though honestly, if you follow Steve Hogg's method of setting seat height, when you are done, you will spin more efficiently, and should be more comfortable all the way around.
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Old 05-11-21, 11:54 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by willhub View Post
I'll try 5mm lower tonight on the turbo see how it feels

Seriously read Hogg's article on seat height, and try his method. It really does work. He has you make changes in 3mm increments. If you are dropping to one side, you may have to drop more than 5mm. After being set up initially, I had to drop around 20mm total. That's a lot, and getting the saddle down made me much more stable on the bike. As I said before, I was really resistant to dropping it the last 5mm, I got it close, and went months before dropping it the rest of the way. I shouldn't have been so stubborn.

Keep this in mind as well. If you try the heel test, putting your heel on the pedal to measure seat height, measure with the crank arm in line with the seat tube, not perpendicular to the ground. Inline with the seat tube will give you the longest point of the pedal stroke in relation to the seat, and interestingly, is pretty much where my seat height is now, after going through all these gyrations. If you set it with the crank perpendicular to the ground, as most people do, you end up with a higher seat, and you will be reaching when the pedal is at the actual bottom of the stroke, which is when the crank is inline with the seat tube.
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Old 05-12-21, 12:03 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Have you guys got any references for these WILD claims?
Seriously.

.
These are not wild claims. Read the links I posted from Hogg's website. Also check out Bikefitmaes on Instagram. Also check out this page: https://neillsbikefit.com.au/?page_id=364 Here is a quote from that article, "Torque measurements through the crank arm show us time and time again that power output drops off rapidly if the seat is too high, but only slightly if the seat is too low due to the hamstring’s relative contribution to the pedal stroke. It is usually better to be slightly too low than slightly too high."
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Old 05-12-21, 12:41 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by phughes View Post
These are not wild claims. Read the links I posted from Hogg's website. Also check out Bikefitmaes on Instagram. Also check out this page: https://neillsbikefit.com.au/?page_id=364 Here is a quote from that article, "Torque measurements through the crank arm show us time and time again that power output drops off rapidly if the seat is too high, but only slightly if the seat is too low due to the hamstring’s relative contribution to the pedal stroke. It is usually better to be slightly too low than slightly too high."

To be honest I'm not a fan of Hogg as he has posted some ridiculous things on crank length.
Anyway, If the OP's saddle was too high I would expect to see a straight knee at the bottom of the stroke. I'm looking at the bend in his knee at the bottom and I want to see it straightened out a little.
I really think that the cranks are too long on this bike and sorting out any leg discrepancies is key here as well.
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Old 05-12-21, 03:35 AM
  #30  
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I thought 170mm cranks were short already, are they really going to be too long? I think I have some 165 to try but I never assumed they'd be too long, I used to use 172.5 on my commuter. So addition 165mm cranks will mean raise saddle 5mm as well?

also on the subject of stopping my feet scrubbing and hitting frame, if I do that I feel like I push my heel out. Look at my stance
Found 165mm 50 34 as well


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Old 05-12-21, 05:12 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by willhub View Post
I thought 170mm cranks were short already, are they really going to be too long? I think I have some 165 to try but I never assumed they'd be too long, I used to use 172.5 on my commuter. So addition 165mm cranks will mean raise saddle 5mm as well?

also on the subject of stopping my feet scrubbing and hitting frame, if I do that I feel like I push my heel out. Look at my stance
Found 165mm 50 34 as well
Yes, your getting conflicting advice left right and centre here.
Personally I would like to isolate one issue at a time and work through them first.

I think your leg angles are too closed up (your knee is getting too high at the top and not particularly straight at the bottom) and lowering the saddle will make it worse yet others are claiming that your saddle is currently too high.
What the shorter cranks will do is to allow your leg angles to open up while the saddle is in a relatively lower position.

I'm guessing that you have asymmetrical issues with your legs that are making things worse.
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Old 05-12-21, 05:58 AM
  #32  
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So leave all as is and try 165mm cranks first ? (Also adjust saddle up 5mm?)
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Old 05-12-21, 07:00 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by willhub View Post
So leave all as is and try 165mm cranks first ? (Also adjust saddle up 5mm?)
I'd like to see you try putting the saddle up 5mm and see what happens. Try putting down 5mm and see what happens.
Take notes of how it feels/works for you.
The shorter cranks will help to smooth you out and should make you more stable on the saddle.
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Old 05-12-21, 08:36 AM
  #34  
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IME, way too much is made of tiny changes in crank length. Makes no sense. Going to shorter cranks is a fad right now, the solution to everything. 5.5 X your inseam (pubic bone to floor in socks) = crank length in mm. Measure and see what that is. My number is 165, but I ride 175 cranks with no issues. My wife's number is 149, but she rides 165s with no issues. Pantani rode 180s. My wife and I may be anomalous however: we've been hiking and riding and gymming together for almost 50 years. Being fit makes a difference.
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Old 05-12-21, 09:13 AM
  #35  
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I do have to say though that I rode my son's trainer last night and was worn out trying to keep even 75 as my cadence while in a low gear and almost no resistance. He has one of his old 29er's on it that has 170 mm cranks. Yes I agree not much, but that extra 5 mm up and 5 mm down of leg travel wore me out and I felt like I was thrashing right from the start.

On my bike in the real world with 165 mm cranks, I find myself sometimes cruising at over 100 cadence and not thinking anything of it. And perfectly comfortable. Similarly, my wife's stationary bike that I use sometimes has 160 mm cranks and I can stay on it as long as I can my bike.

May son's trainer, I was worn out after 30 minutes. Not sure if that's a good type of getting worn out or a bad type of getting worn out. The only obvious difference so far is the crank length. But I'm going to try and look into it more as I get a chance.
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Old 05-12-21, 12:26 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
To be honest I'm not a fan of Hogg as he has posted some ridiculous things on crank length.
Anyway, If the OP's saddle was too high I would expect to see a straight knee at the bottom of the stroke. I'm looking at the bend in his knee at the bottom and I want to see it straightened out a little.
I really think that the cranks are too long on this bike and sorting out any leg discrepancies is key here as well.
Just because Hogg has some things you don't agree with, doesn't mean everything he says doesn't have merit. Hogg isn't the only one who holds these views, I quoted others as well, it is just that Hogg has two really good articles on how to set seat height so that you can pedal fluidly through the entire pedal stroke, and prevent injuries, and be more stable on the bike.

You do not need a straight leg to have a too high seat height, in fact, that is what is wrong with many people's idea of seat height today, they think the leg should be basically straight. You need some bend. You also aren't taking into account differing flexibility level between riders.

In the OP's case, it is fairly obvious, he is dropping off the saddle to one side, and he is pedaling toes down, so he is reaching for the pedal. I guarantee he is not pedaling smoothly throughout the pedaling stoke, but instead, loses power at the bottom of each stroke.
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Old 05-12-21, 02:26 PM
  #37  
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I've got the 165mm cranks on, then I realised no stages power meter, I'm going to be lost without my stages

I'm prepared to give it a try if it might improve my position. Saddle left the same so that's 5mm lower.

Not going to get to test it tonight the GF will kill me as she's gone to sleep.

Here is a side look at my bike, as you can see it's a saddle that sweeps up and the bike fitter had my tilt it down a bit to allow my pelvis to rotate more.

The drop seems very low but in person there is more of a visible drop between the bar and saddle

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Old 05-12-21, 09:08 PM
  #38  
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Nice bike! Yeah, so what is your measured pubic bone to floor measurement? That looks like a fairly small bike. The saddle and bar setup looks fine to me.
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Old 05-13-21, 12:01 AM
  #39  
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I've noted more info before sorry if boggling peopel's mind it's just as this info comes to me I mention it.

I haven't measured that.

It's a 52, or around around 53.4 top tube, my commuter is a 54. I'm 5ft 10 most people always thought my 54 planet X I used to have was too small but I used to ride 56cm frames and I was always stretched out, saddle pushed as far forward as possible and a short 6cm stem.

This 52 has a 11cm stem and the saddle is about half way on the rails.

I don't know how to measure that, shoes off ram a hard book up your crotch and measure?

Years ago I remember I can't remember if it was 175mm or 172.5mm cranks but I got horrendous knee pain and other pains in my leg not sure if it was coincidence but I swiftly went back to 170. Must have been 175 as my commuter used to have 172.5.

Not sure if it's insignificant but I can never get 100% comfy in my shorts in 2016 I had testicular cancer and my right testicle was removed and sometimes I wonder if this causes some discomfort.

I started actually properly cycling again last year in April due to lockdown and quickly picked fork up and managing 50 mile rides 3 days in a row, I was doing this on my carrera which was I'll fitting 56cm fully forward saddle on seat post, at the time was a flat saddle not a scooped one, 6cm stem and didn't have many concerns.

Got my Trek in June started riding it was ok initial, then one day I was on a rose felt unstable and realised that left sit bone wasn't in contact with saddle at all, and from that day on I couldn't work with the bike.

I've always suffered with neck pain as well which hopefully s video might identify and I've got a massage tomorrow at a physio place and going through OH referral at my workplace to see if I can get my back looked at.

I have tried many different stem lengths, different bar width (42, 38 and 40) of which 40cm seems the only width I like, different bar tild, different saddles, Selle Italia, Pro Lite I think it was, Specialized Bridge (145 and 155 both had same symptom of slipping off, kept 145 as 155 seemed a bit wide), different setback, different tilts.

Briefly rode with SPD rather than SPD SL, but they hurt on more than 25 mile rides. But did feel a bit more stable.

I also tried another Specialized saddle, it was a short nose saddle, that felt a lot more stable but really hurt around my right sitbone, felt like it gave me some soft tissue damage, that had to go.

My vision is to be able to be at a similar form I used to be 100 mile rides at a nice pace, 19 to 20mph average was always the sweet spot for me.

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Old 05-13-21, 06:09 AM
  #40  
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saddle height unchanged just with 165mm cranks
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Old 05-13-21, 07:02 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by willhub View Post

saddle height unchanged just with 165mm cranks
OK, well that definitely looks better to my eye. Your knee isn't rising so high at the top of the stroke. How does it feel?
And now I agree that the saddle doesn't look low as is. You must have been rocking in the previous pictures which changed my perception of how high your saddle was.
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Old 05-13-21, 08:21 AM
  #42  
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I'm going to give it a try on the road tonight, just sat on it it didn't feel weird, felt ok, but riding might be different.
I've realised my "KOPS" will be off now as knee 5mm further forward but not moving anything yet.

I really hope I haven't had a stroke, I don't feel weird, can't walk straight I'm a bit wonky but always have been.

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Old 05-13-21, 10:33 AM
  #43  
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The 165mm cranks haven't made any difference, I felt even more wonky!

Definitely need to get a video on the Kickr. I think based on the no improvement of 165mm that the 170 are ok, I'd hope to use them and not then need a new power meter.

Raised saddle 5mm to match what it was like with 170mm and see how that's like oh the way back.
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Old 05-13-21, 11:18 AM
  #44  
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Yes, to measure inseam take your outer pants and shoes off, stand against a wall with your feet maybe 8" apart, put a book between your legs and against the wall, slide it up until it won't go any higher, measure.

Thinking about that saddle some more, it seems to me that one can't hang one sit bone off the saddle and still pedal. The saddle horn will prevent that - unless you're so far forward that you're sitting on it. Then it's possible to slide sideways enough to hang one side off. Seems to me that if you just push back and the saddle horn is between your legs as you pedal, both sides will have to be on the saddle. Unless the saddle is too narrow, that is. What's your sit bone measurement and how wide is your current saddle?

While riding, if you sight your top tube against your down tube, and your stem against your front wheel, does it seem that your head is on the centerline of the bike or are you tilted one way or the other?

The right side and left side photos are interesting in that the leg you complain off being off the saddle looks shorter than the leg that's fine. Might you have a bit of scoliosis? Are your hips tilted a bit?

KOPS is not a thing. Set your saddle set-back by balance, not by where the pedals are. My fit primer is here: https://www.bikeforums.net/21296948-post3.html
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Old 05-13-21, 01:58 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by willhub View Post
The 165mm cranks haven't made any difference, I felt even more wonky!

Definitely need to get a video on the Kickr. I think based on the no improvement of 165mm that the 170 are ok, I'd hope to use them and not then need a new power meter.

Raised saddle 5mm to match what it was like with 170mm and see how that's like oh the way back.
In your last pictures, you are still toes down on the left side, but the right side doesn't look as bad. Your seat is too high.
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Old 05-13-21, 02:34 PM
  #46  
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I can't see front wheel axle when on the bike, my head seems in the right position.

I'll try the saddle lower, just feels crazy like my right leg wants to be snapped when Its lowered.

As an example of the orientation when I'm on the bike, I'm sort of tilted to the right it seems, if I force myself straight, both knees roughly same distance from top tube I'm a lot more stable but I can't keep it forced there.

This photo isn't ideal but it's pretty much the direction my legs are when on the bike, I endevour to get a video done tomorrow.

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Old 05-13-21, 07:40 PM
  #47  
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You definitely looked better with the 165mm cranks.

Your talk of using a power meter is definitely a big clue. Your trying to push to hard/use too much power without first having sorted out your own personal balance/asymmetry issues.
You must slow down and sort out your balance/asymmetry issues as a matter of priority.
I really can't see you fixing this while going full steam ahead. Even PRO athletes have to take a step back sometimes.
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Old 05-14-21, 03:14 AM
  #48  
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I'm terrible with Giving all the info.

Would panniers effect bike position?

As I mention I started properly cycling again in April last year, before that I was still getting miles but purely commuter miles, I had 2 panniers, the left side had clothes in, the right pannier has 17" laptop, d lock and various other bits.

When it came to cycling without panniers I was all over the place.

I've since been balancing the panniers out.

Could that also cause an imbalance riding with a very heavy pannier on one side?

Re the 165mm cranks and the 5mm power effective saddle height. I found it ok coasting and hardly using any effort, but if it came to any slight inclines I just felt that I couldn't get the pedals around and even stablise myself.

​​​​​​In the process of moving house so it's making it hard for me to set the turbo up and do a video, perhaps I'll manage today.

I'll try shimming the left by 2 then 4mm

Power wise last check FTP over 1 hour was 287W, the rides I've been doing I've not been able to get power down due to bike instability and average power of 200w which is an easy ride.

Last edited by willhub; 05-14-21 at 03:51 AM.
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Old 05-14-21, 09:17 AM
  #49  
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Ok hopefully these help.

Uploaded 4 videos 1 for each side, um sorry about the shorts, won't be using those outside anymore apart from with thermals over the top!

Hope they are clear enough.

Next video


Next Video


Last Video


Here is a video from 9 years ago in TT position, thought it may be of use as you can see my position then.


And thus one

https://youtu.be/z8bEfBAnA3g



Ive looked at my videos and also after watching a video on saddle height on Cam Nicholls YouTube channel it would seem I'm "snatching" at the bottom which would suggest maybe my saddle is indeed too high ?

Questions with that is why have I never had any instability like this in the past despite having up to 74.5cm saddle height rather than the 73 it's at now and how would a reputable bike fitter not identify this?

Also when I tried those shorter cranks as mentioned the effect of half a cm saddle difference was crippling me on a 4% incline wobbling all over and no power.

Should I try 1cm lower on the turbo?
Should I try widening stance with the 2mm extenders?

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Old 05-15-21, 01:38 AM
  #50  
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How big of a shim would I need for the left side ? I tried a 2mm shim that sloped down from the right but it didn't seem to make much difference at all.
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