Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Winter Cycling
Reload this Page >

Black Ice | WEDGE ISSUE WARNING

Notices
Winter Cycling Don't let snow and ice discourage you this winter. The key element to year-round cycling is proper attire! Check out this winter cycling forum to chat with other ice bike fanatics.

Black Ice | WEDGE ISSUE WARNING

Old 01-09-22, 08:56 PM
  #26  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,000

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times in 234 Posts
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
just don't try to put a foot down & get off the bike! ;-)
Yes, I was very much aware that the tires had much better traction than my feet!
sweeks is offline  
Likes For sweeks:
Old 01-10-22, 04:31 AM
  #27  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 27,152

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4471 Post(s)
Liked 2,063 Times in 1,418 Posts
Originally Posted by sweeks View Post
Yes, I was very much aware that the tires had much better traction than my feet!
only mentioned it cuz I went down myself for that reason the other night
rumrunn6 is online now  
Likes For rumrunn6:
Old 01-10-22, 05:58 AM
  #28  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,000

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times in 234 Posts
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
only mentioned it cuz I went down myself for that reason the other night
BTDT!!
sweeks is offline  
Likes For sweeks:
Old 01-10-22, 07:35 AM
  #29  
shelbyfv
Senior Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 10,039
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2970 Post(s)
Liked 3,752 Times in 1,930 Posts
You guys are cycling studs, riding in those conditions. My arbitrary cut off is 32 and I've been re-thinking that this year.
shelbyfv is offline  
Likes For shelbyfv:
Old 01-10-22, 07:57 AM
  #30  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 27,152

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4471 Post(s)
Liked 2,063 Times in 1,418 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
You guys are cycling studs, riding in those conditions. My arbitrary cut off is 32 and I've been re-thinking that this year.
go for it. your odds of regretting it are 50/50 hehe. it's like buying a car, always be willing to walk away. meaning, if it's truly horrible, just stop & got home

Last edited by rumrunn6; 01-11-22 at 04:50 AM.
rumrunn6 is online now  
Likes For rumrunn6:
Old 01-10-22, 08:20 AM
  #31  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 4,555

Bikes: 21 CoMotion Java; 21 Bianchi Infinito; 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1046 Post(s)
Liked 857 Times in 450 Posts
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
just don't try to put a foot down & get off the bike! ;-)
BTDT x2

Long story from before I moved to a home office: we had slushy snow falling on frozen & untreated roads, I was happily biking home from work on the shoulder of a county road without a clue how bad the roads were. After 6-8 miles, I was coming up to a red light and put a foot down, my boot slipped out, and I barely stayed upright. Then I noticed cars where locking up, spinning, and sliding on the road. I quickly rerouted to the longer route on separated bike trails.

Winter tires on a bike a amazing!

Last edited by Hypno Toad; 01-11-22 at 07:31 AM.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Likes For Hypno Toad:
Old 01-10-22, 08:21 AM
  #32  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,896

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3417 Post(s)
Liked 2,371 Times in 1,439 Posts
Personally, I don't ride on frozen lakes. Also, this year I've been riding mostly without studs, favoring wide (43 mm) gravel tires at low pressure. This is where Hypnotoad and I differ. Both of us go down now and again. On Saturday it was warm (in the 20s) and I went down emerging from a driveway and hitting something in between thick slush and hardpack, just as I cornered onto the street. I don't think that was a studs vs. no studs issue - the whole corner of frozen stuff gave way and the fault was mostly my inattention. Just a bruise on my hip to show for it.

And yesterday it was colder.... (graph is in °F, high temperatures are of course the time it takes for the Wahoo to cool down after I leave the house). No studs on the tires. Not one in the saddle either really. It's not so bad when you know how to dress.

MinnMan is offline  
Likes For MinnMan:
Old 01-10-22, 08:36 AM
  #33  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,896

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3417 Post(s)
Liked 2,371 Times in 1,439 Posts
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
BTDT x2

Long story from before I moved to a home office: we had slushy snow falling on frozen & untreated roads, I was happily biking home from work on the shoulder of a county road without a clue how bad the roads were. After 6-8 miles, I was coming up to a red light and put a foot down, my boot slipped out, and I barely stayed upright. Than I noticed cars where locking up, spinning, and sliding on the road. I quickly rerouted to the longer route on separated bike trails.

Winter tires on a bike a amazing!
Yes, this is an issue. There are times when I trust my control better than that of the cars around me. We're lucky to have so many bike trails around here, and that many of them are plowed well and efficiently.
MinnMan is offline  
Likes For MinnMan:
Old 01-10-22, 10:14 AM
  #34  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 4,555

Bikes: 21 CoMotion Java; 21 Bianchi Infinito; 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1046 Post(s)
Liked 857 Times in 450 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Personally, I don't ride on frozen lakes. Also, this year I've been riding mostly without studs, favoring wide (43 mm) gravel tires at low pressure. This is where Hypnotoad and I differ. Both of us go down now and again. On Saturday it was warm (in the 20s) and I went down emerging from a driveway and hitting something in between thick slush and hardpack, just as I cornered onto the street. I don't think that was a studs vs. no studs issue - the whole corner of frozen stuff gave way and the fault was mostly my inattention. Just a bruise on my hip to show for it.
Cross-street sluff is awful on every tire I've tried, I tried it with studs, without studs, and from 28mm to 4". The snow-sludge cars drag from quiet local streets/driveways onto the shoulders of busy streets just sucks! It's unpredictable and difficult to control. I'll move to the traffic lane when I can, and when I can't ... try to float it and pucker up!

Hope your bruises heal up quick ... I always hate those hip bruises waking me up at night when I roll on to 'the wrong side'.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Likes For Hypno Toad:
Old 01-10-22, 07:30 PM
  #35  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,000

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times in 234 Posts
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
... try to float it and pucker up!
"pucker up"!
sweeks is offline  
Likes For sweeks:
Old 01-10-22, 07:35 PM
  #36  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,000

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times in 234 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
There are times when I trust my control better than that of the cars around me.
With studded tires, you *have* better control than the cars!
At the train station in my town, I have on occasion had friendly competition with cars to see who can get to the stop sign at the parking lot's exit at the top of a hill. When there's snow or ice on the street, I can easily beat a car, which is invariably spinning its tires and going nowhere. I'm not sure if the drivers understand that it's not a fair fight!
sweeks is offline  
Likes For sweeks:
Old 01-10-22, 07:39 PM
  #37  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,000

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times in 234 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
You guys are cycling studs, riding in those conditions. My arbitrary cut off is 32 and I've been re-thinking that this year.
If you have the right clothing, the cold is nothing to fear. I've been out in minus 20 F and come back sweating (which could be a problem in itself!
sweeks is offline  
Likes For sweeks:
Old 01-14-22, 10:09 PM
  #38  
Pugs2xLove
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 75 Times in 57 Posts
Originally Posted by sweeks View Post
If you have the right clothing, the cold is nothing to fear. I've been out in minus 20 F and come back sweating (which could be a problem in itself!
Don't mind the cold with the right clothing. It's the wind chills and freezing rain that hit home hard.
Pugs2xLove is offline  
Old 01-15-22, 05:03 AM
  #39  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 27,152

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 106 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4471 Post(s)
Liked 2,063 Times in 1,418 Posts
Originally Posted by Pugs2xLove View Post
Don't mind the cold with the right clothing. It's the wind chills and freezing rain that hit home hard.
cold rain, or worse, cold snow, right around freezing, that clings to anything, is pretty rough
rumrunn6 is online now  
Old 01-15-22, 08:48 AM
  #40  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,000

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times in 234 Posts
Originally Posted by Pugs2xLove View Post
Don't mind the cold with the right clothing. It's the wind chills and freezing rain that hit home hard.
Heh... there's always going to be wind chill unless you're walking your bike! Freezing rain is a problem, but the right clothing makes it survivable.
The clothing I wear in the winter is waterproof, and also wind-proof. SOmetimes my eyes water though!
sweeks is offline  
Old 01-15-22, 08:54 AM
  #41  
Pugs2xLove
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 75 Times in 57 Posts
Originally Posted by sweeks View Post
Heh... there's always going to be wind chill unless you're walking your bike! Freezing rain is a problem, but the right clothing makes it survivable.
The clothing I wear in the winter is waterproof, and also wind-proof. SOmetimes my eyes water though!
I rarely have issues with watery eyes (goggles fix that problem). Seeing where you're at, how much snow dump did you get in your area? We got about a foot in my town from yesterday's storm.
Pugs2xLove is offline  
Old 01-15-22, 11:00 AM
  #42  
sweeks
Senior Member
 
sweeks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 2,000

Bikes: Airborne "Carpe Diem", Motobecane "Mirage", Trek 6000, Strida 2, Dahon "Helios XL", Dahon "Mu XL", Tern "Verge S11i"

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 769 Post(s)
Liked 323 Times in 234 Posts
Originally Posted by Pugs2xLove View Post
I rarely have issues with watery eyes (goggles fix that problem). Seeing where you're at, how much snow dump did you get in your area? We got about a foot in my town from yesterday's storm.
I've tried to find goggles that I can wear over my (very necessary) glasses, but haven't been successful. Luckily, the eye-watering only lasts a few minutes and then I'm fine.
We haven't had *any* snow lately.* I can see the odd flake now, but we've had no accumulation for a couple weeks. I'm hoping it stays that way so I can go out on the lake again... the last few days have been above freezing, so it may take time to re-freeze to a safe depth. If I see ice fishing, I feel safe.
*I'm about 40 miles NW of the City.
sweeks is offline  
Old 01-16-22, 01:54 PM
  #43  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 12,167
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2316 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
just don't try to put a foot down & get off the bike! ;-)
chuckled at that one, last winter i rode on a river that looked a lot like the ones shown here, and all was fine if i kept the bike vertical enough for the studs to properly contact, and yes, veeeeeeeery carefully put a foot down.

a real laugh riding on that river, almost like glass in places.
rode on a frozen skating canal as a kid, but most of the ice had been skated on and slightly snowy, so it wad doable.
going back 45 years probably.
djb is offline  
Likes For djb:
Old 01-16-22, 03:52 PM
  #44  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 12,167
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2316 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by gecho View Post
Ponded water that freezes is super hard studs will scratch it but not get much grip. I encounter that mostly when riding on a creek and going under a bridge that keeps the ice clear of snow. Also a big problem in the spring during the nightly re-freezes.

Freezing rain is similar in its hardness to pond ice. Maybe its not so much the hardness as the uniformity. Other types of ice have a jagged texture where grip can be found.

With either of those types of ice you have to be super careful with any kind of side sloping on the road / path. Gravity pulls you to the low side, trying to steer against the pull will make the front tire slip out. Sometimes I'll just let it carry me off into the grass. Many times that isn't an option because the low side has curb, railing or pile of snow so I just come to a stop before trying to get out of the hole.


I like breaking frozen puddles, but you need be be careful doing that. If the ice is really thin it just shatters. But at a certain thickness you just carve a channel the same width as your wheel. Its like riding in a really narrow rut and the wheel will fight any attempt to steer which can throw off your balance. Not much of a problem on a short puddle, but beyond about a bicycle length you could get into trouble.

One of my fav kinds of ice is refrozen slush, grippy and makes a nice popping noise.
this thread is fun to read. I'm in Canada and have skated, skied, biked, driven and even motorcycled in the snow and ice, so its neat to read of the observations written here about the varying surfaces of ice, snow , whatever that we encounter on two wheels.

Ice really does have so many different textures doesnt it?, and now that Ive been using studded tires for winter commuting, its less mental work of having to be ultra observant of what the surface is and going with experience what traction you are going to have for a given tire situation.

I like to see the comment about off camber situations and ice, and just letting the bike go with the camber sometimes , ie not leaning, and just let yourself go until you get to snow or textured ice or whatever where you can get some grip. You learn that downhill and cross coiuntry skiing, there are times you just dont fight it and go until you come to a different surface, no point in putting in turning input or leaning, just like with skiis, cuz you'll be on your arse fast.

what ive found interesting is that with friends I ride with, some have no instincts for this stuff, and its hard sometimes to explain to someone stuff who didnt goof around on bikes as a kid where you learn all about crashing and sliding out, and this stuff stays with you--well, I guess some people just dont have the aptitude and never learn, but those of us who loved doing it as kids or as adults, it certainly makes like easier on two wheels for sussing out traction and instinctively knowing body language to use for given situations.

Last edited by djb; 01-16-22 at 09:15 PM.
djb is offline  
Old 01-16-22, 04:04 PM
  #45  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 12,167
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2316 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Cross-street sluff is awful on every tire I've tried, I tried it with studs, without studs, and from 28mm to 4". The snow-sludge cars drag from quiet local streets/driveways onto the shoulders of busy streets just sucks! It's unpredictable and difficult
I've found that these "snow sludge" conditions that happen here with steady heavy snowfall mixed in with salt, are the hardest to ride in.
Completely slippy and "greasy" as I call it, and the most workout I ever get riding to work. I haven't ridden on as many tire combos as you, but a few, and its always been just plain hard and a heck of a workout.
Riding in this stuff certainly adds to my tally of not putting a foot down while getting a serious front end push and big understeer and maintaining power to keep moving so the understeer finishes and you keep going.

tomorrow we are supposed to be getting 15-25cms and a high of -5c so it probably is going to get greasy.....
djb is offline  
Likes For djb:
Old 01-16-22, 08:30 PM
  #46  
chaadster
Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 11,368

Bikes: '15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, '76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, '17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, '12 Breezer Venturi, '09 Dahon Mariner, '12 Mercier Nano, '95 DeKerf Team SL, '19 Tern Rally, ‘21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, ‘19 T-Lab X3

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1999 Post(s)
Liked 1,077 Times in 653 Posts
Originally Posted by djb View Post
what ive found interesting is that with friends I ride with, some have no instincts for this stuff, and its hard sometimes to explain to someone stuff who didnt goof around on bikes as a kid where you learn all about crashing and sliding out, and this stuff stays with you--well, I guess some people just dont have the aptitude and never learn, but those of us who loved doing it as kids or as adults, it certainly makes like easier on two wheels for sussing out traction and instinctively knowing body language to use for given situations.
I think that is insightful and so true. I actually took my 9 year old out on the bike during the last snowfall expressly to teach him about locking up the rear, powersliding, fishtailing and that kind of stuff. He rides somewhat, like with us on errands or to school, but he really doesn’t go out and play on his bike like I used to. He’s very much a kid of the computer era, if you know what I mean.


chaadster is online now  
Likes For chaadster:
Old 01-16-22, 09:25 PM
  #47  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 12,167
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2316 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 569 Posts
If figure all the times ive crashed on two wheels has gone into a database in my brain that hopefully helps not repeat the same crash, touch wood.
djb is offline  
Likes For djb:
Old 01-16-22, 10:16 PM
  #48  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 4,896

Bikes: 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3417 Post(s)
Liked 2,371 Times in 1,439 Posts
Originally Posted by djb View Post
If figure all the times ive crashed on two wheels has gone into a database in my brain that hopefully helps not repeat the same crash, touch wood.
There's a section that used to be on one of my frequent winter routes that had a hazard - a crevice that the plows partially exposed, and then covered over with a light coating of packed snow - on the right hand side, over near the cur. I managed to find it and go down twice in the same winter. Same exact place.

I hope your brain's database is better than mine.
MinnMan is offline  
Old 01-16-22, 10:30 PM
  #49  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 12,167
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2316 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
I hope your brain's database is better than mine.
unlikely, I'll probably crash tomorrow like a dumbass..... (I'm still touching wood here! )

Last edited by djb; 01-18-22 at 08:32 AM.
djb is offline  
Old 01-16-22, 10:39 PM
  #50  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 12,167
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2316 Post(s)
Liked 674 Times in 569 Posts
Originally Posted by Hypno Toad View Post
Also, been there, done that ... and I've got it on YouTube (of course I do! )
https://youtu.be/p58OCgvqDgo
As a "Glas half full " sort of guy, what i immediately thought was at least you didn't fall into the damn creek!
djb is offline  
Likes For djb:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.