gazman22

Hello,

As I read about others bikes and have posted images of a few of mine, I often see inquiries about wether a front end collision has occurred. Regarding my bikes, these are bikes I do not know the history of. After people have inquired I have inspected the frames closely, and while in both cases there were signs of some paint cracking at or near the brazing at the head tube connections (neither bike was lugged), there was no signs of any weld cracking or chipping, as well there was no signs of any deformation to any steel tube.

So, I would like to hear from people with more knowledge and experience than me. If a steel framed bike shows some paint cracks near joints, but shows no sign of any deformation or material failure, is it a cause for concern? I had generally thought one of the benefits of steel is how it can move and return to its original state with no weakening occurring. Or, it can even be mildly bent and not lose strength (cold setting). Or, if a ding or dent occurs at lower stress points on a tube it is not cause for concern. If the steel does not deform or crease it is OK.

Thanks,
Gary

SJX426 

If there is not deformation then the elastic limit has not been breached. It is safe. Paint may not have the same level of elasticity, therefore cracks.
I have a frame with this condition, no sight of any deformation except cracked paint. I bought the bike that was a project by the PO. The fork was not original and I think I know why.
P1040379 on Flickr

bark_eater 

I bought a higher end Mondia frame that looked fine. When I got it in the stand I found a gentle bend to the top tube and almost 1 degree of increase in the headtube angle. The fork looks ok but I haven't really measured the rake. When I pulled the fork I discovered a chip of chrome missing on Campagnolo top race edge facing forward . The seller denied all knowledge and could have been riding it like that in the 80's after he got a deal from his "best friend" Its a nice bike so it may have been crashed and straitened back when frame repair wasn't such a black art and insurance nightmare for bike shops.

Classtime 

I bought a PX-10 for twenty bucks that experienced a front end collision. The fork was fine but the TT and DT had some deformation and an expert at a long gone LBS informed me that someone with skill had straightened it and did a good job. He estimated the frame was 95% original strength. Best part was that this 1969 PX-10 now had a steeper HT and was a nicer handling bike than stock.

xiaoman1 

I agree with @SJX426, I don't think there would be any issues riding it...enjoy the ride!
Best, Ben.

Drillium Dude 

This '69 Masi Special had long ago been involved in a front-end collision according to the seller. As he explained it, the fork suffered no damage (and there's no evidence of prior damage there), but the top and down tubes were slightly buckled. Frame was straightened - and passed the string test - but the evidence clearly shows somebody in the bike's past met with some sort of unyielding object

Note the loss of paint at the point of the top tube lug - and the tiny crack in the paint about 1/2" aft of the lug point:



Underside of top tube; loss of paint at the tip of the top tube lug spoon - and a spot of missing paint 1/2" inch aft of the spoon. There is a tiny bulge there, which caused the paint to lift and flake off:



More cracks in the paint 1/2" below the lug point on the down tube lug. Note this didn't lose any paint from the lug point; I figure the top tube lug took a bit more of the strain than this one:



Underside of down tube shows evidence of creasing; note the large flaked-off area of the paint, similar to what happened at the slight bulge on the underside of the top tube. Btw, neither bulge can be felt anymore, but they are classic signs of a collision:



Since sold, the bike is ridden with confidence these days by Bob Freeman - a man who knows his stuff when it comes to vintage bikes from every corner of the world.

Since this is the only bike I've ever owned with any signs of being crashed, I made sure to get good photos of the evidence. Well, that, and the fact it's a '69 Masi Spcial!

Hope this helps.

DD

ClydeClydeson

It used to not be uncommon for an LBS to repair a frame that had suffered a serious front end collision and had the headtube pushed back and some rippling of the top and down tubes - there was a tool that consisted of a rigid bar that passed through the headtube connected by a hinge to a 'turnbuckle' style adjustable-length bar that was braced against the bottom bracket - turn the turnbuckle to increase its length and it would push the headtube out and straighten the top and downtubes back to close to their original position. THis repair would always leave the paint cracked like is shown in the photos above. An impact that does not cause wrinkles in the top and downtube would likely not cause such significant damage to the paint. And the original crash that exceeded the elastic limit, and the repair, would always weaken the frame in the location of the damage. After the first damage and repair, the crash to make the same thing happen would not have to be as dramatic.

gazman22

Very helpful.

Please correct me if I am wrong with any of the following— you were/are comfortable with a frame that showed actual deformation to the steel. And, while it was nice that the frame could be brought back to proper alignment for riding performance, that did not actually improve any weakening that occurred from the collision. I think I too would ride that bike.

I guess I started this thread because when these paint cracks were first brought up to me, I thought people might be implying the bike could have a catastrophic failure (not that anyone outright said so!). My layman's engineering knowledge/intuition really though that unlikely.

79pmooney

A comment on my appreciation of steel in front end collisions. All that plastic bending after the yield point is reached - energy absorbed that the rider's body doesn't have to see. I"d love to see a study of how much energy is absorbed in a bike braking crash, for lesser resistance of the far less strong steel times the much greater distance of deflection comes out to more energy absorbed than the far greater force resistance of CF times the rather small deflection before it snaps. If this ran in CF's favor, we would have heard long ago of the energy adsorption of CF as a safety factor.)

Fun film footage - "Stars and Water Bottle Carriers" (think I got the name right) to the 1971(?) Giro d'Italia. Early on, footage of a big peloton crash. In the aftermath a rider straightens his fork with his bare hands, jumps on the bike and chases the peloton. Far, far from an isolated event. Steel bikes have been seeing that treatment forever.

Edit: These paragraphs refer to the old steel, up through 531, the earlier Columbus, etc. and the old '1" tubes', not the later hjigh strength alloys and thin walled and larger diameter steel tubes. Traditional lugged and brazed construction.

Drillium Dude 

That's the strangest win/win I've heard on this Forum!

Perhaps Poo-joe should have made them that way from the jump

DD

Drillium Dude 

There you go. Same tool and method was used by the PO to rectify - and extend the working life of - the Masi Special pictured above.

DD

Drillium Dude 

In my case, the Masi was definitely bought with the intention of riding (ended up a tad too small, however), and I didn't have any worries about it failing after the PO explained the repair process. Since it passed the string test and the slight bumps on the underside of the top and down tubes were 'ironed out', I felt confident that the frame had retained most of its original strength. @SJX426 noted the estimation that his frame's strength was reduced by a mere 5%; not being a frame-builder, I don't know about the numbers, but they sound about right considering his damage is largely confined to the paint. Neither his example nor mine suffered terribly obvious buckling, bending - or the worst case scenario, depicted below:







Full disclosure: I didn't buy the Freschi in that sorry condition; that's the result of a meeting of the minds between the shipping crate the bike was inside, and a forklift driver who must have been out of his mind at the time.

Regarding my pointing out the paint cracks in the Viscount: more of a 'public service', if you will. I suppose the fact that the fork was known to fail, and the cracking in the paint, had me just that bit concerned because I don't believe the quality of the tubing was up there with what the Masi was built with - and of course, the Masi's fork didn't suffer at all. Figured the fork failed, and possibly resulted in the frame taking some heat, too. Also - and again, I'm not a frame-builder - the lack of lugs on the Viscount made me wonder if that joint was stressed more than what the Masi went through.

As others have stated, I'd have no problems riding it in that condition, especially with a reliable fork - but I would pay close attention for any change in ride quality simply because it lost some of its original frame integrity (if in fact it's been crashed). How much, it's impossible to say. I do know Columbus SL can take a beating; not sure (I haven't personal experience) the limitations inherent in the tubing used by Viscount.

DD

Kabuki12

Years ago i had a friend with a 1987 Schwinn Circuit that he hit head on into the side of a car . He ended up launching into the air and landed on the other side of the car. Of course the front wheel looked like a taco and he had several stitches in his head. After he healed, he replaced the front wheel and kept riding the bike. I couldn’t believe the fork and the rest of the frame had no visible trauma. I felt around the down tube and top tube but I couldn’t find any damage , and yes, the fork seemed ok! The frame was Columbus and the fork was Tange. A year later the head tube cracked open while riding on a flat city road. Sometimes I think the stress on a frame doesn’t show right away , but can reveal itself much later.

Drillium Dude 

Woah - did he suffer another accident as a result of the split head tube? Or was he lucky, and able to make either the "walk of shame" or "call of shame"?

DD

iab

It my be just the picture and me, but I think your fork may be bent Drillium Dude.

Drillium Dude 

Ain't that the truth.

However, the net result was a turning circle tighter than that of a Rigi

DD

Kabuki12

No, this time he lucked out . He thought he had a flat because the bike was acting wonky, when he pulled over, he discovered the crack. He called his wife and used up his get out of jail card! I had never seen a head tube crack like that, it was in a spiral shape that was almost diagonal to the front of the HT.

John E

My first Capo, a 1960 Modell Campagnolo given to me by a college pal, suffered the classic head tube pushback in my one-and-only encounter of the wrong kind with a motor vehicle (typical "I didn't see him" left-cross). It also left me with two bumps where my left clavicle had been fractured, a concussion, and a dueling scar on my left cheekbone. The Reynolds 531 in the downtube and the top tube crumpled a bit just behind the butting. I had it straightened at my trusted LBS and rode it for about 6 more years until a crack started to open up in the downtube during an out-of-saddle climb. I gingerly rode it home and gave the frame to another friend who taught bicycle repair and auto shop.

jethin

If you try to ride a steel bike that’s been in even a minor front end collision it will immediately catch fire and carry you to directly to the fiery pits of hell!!!

Man I miss the old days on this forum.

I’m in the process of building up an artificially aggro’ed frame. It’s revised geometry makes track bikes look tame.

[But seriously be safe out there.]

Chuck M 

I don't know why, maybe it has been due to my never having a front end collision with anything, but whenever this comes up I have a hard time getting my head around how it was apparently so common that bike shops invested in a dedicated tool for it. That being said, I hope I haven't jinxed myself into having a front end collision now.

Dean51 

Similar story.... I purchased a Ciocc Mockba 80 frame several years ago. If was offered sans fork....which was my first clue to look for evidence of a front ender. Sure enough, I could feel/see a small bulge under the head tube lugs. I took the frame home for $25. Once I got it home, I measure the head tube and found it to be 2 degrees steeper than spec. An old school frame builder in my area use the same tooling described by ClydeClydeson and brought it back to 1/2 degree steeper than spec in about 10 minutes. He charged me $15. I picked up a suitable fork and have put a heap of miles on this bike.

Dean

MooneyBloke

Those Freschi pictures make me a very unhappy bunny. What did that poor frame do to deserve such an end?

gazman22

Awesome! without the pain of a frame failure induced accident!

Mr. 66

To much coke
to much smoke
oak tree you're in my way

Trakhak

Agreed. That is very painful to look at. Reminds me of losing control of my Cannondale mountain bike on a rough downhill trail and running into a tree at speed. The aluminum frame just laughed off the impact, but the steel fork was bent pretty severely.