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Zipp 303s versus Winspace Hyper Lun 45s

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Zipp 303s versus Winspace Hyper Lun 45s

Old 03-25-23, 11:24 PM
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Zipp 303s versus Winspace Hyper Lun 45s

I have ENVE Foundation 45 wheels now. I love them, no issues at all. I am thinking of a second wheelset just for fun and have been thinking about the Hyper 45 set or maybe the Zipp 303s. I love the idea of the Hyper 45 wheels with their staggard setup front and rear. There are tons of great reviews on them too. Zipps are better supported, easier to repair and maintain, plus have a fantastic warranty/guarantee. Both are similarly priced too. What say you guys? Big thing keeping me away from the Hyper 45s is the 21mm width.

Should I just stick with the Foundation 45s? Or do I go Zipp or Winspace?

https://www.winspace.cc/product/hype...rake-wheelset/

https://www.racycles.com/wheels/zipp...3?sku=10121322
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Old 03-26-23, 06:14 AM
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I have the 303 and I’m totally satisfied with them. Personally, I wouldn’t buy the Winspace because of the 21mm inner width and silly carbon spokes.
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Old 03-26-23, 07:52 AM
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I'm into maximizing the rim internal width and going hookless for lower tire pressure and a better ride. I have 303s wheels that I bought over a year ago. They're fine, except in gusty winds. I decided to go with shallower 29mm depth and wider 25mm hookless rims that require no rim tape, from BTLOS. My last pair with extra light rims and Bitex 312 hubs came in at 1340 grams and cost about $800. They offer rims depths of up to 44mm, with the 25mm IW. Right now, build times are longer than usual. My first set took 30 days to deliver and the last took 42 days.

With a 25mm IW, 28mm tires are the narrowest tires that can be used and they'll measure around 31mm in width. ZIPP recommends 52/56psi for a 140lb rider.


​​​​​https://btlos.com/ar-clincher-hook-l...arbon-wheelset
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Old 03-26-23, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by InvertedMP
Big thing keeping me away from the Hyper 45s is the 21mm width.
What size tires do you run?
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Old 03-26-23, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
What size tires do you run?
28mm
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Old 03-26-23, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by InvertedMP
28mm
The Winspace wheels claim to be optimized for 25-28, so what’s the hesitation?
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Old 03-26-23, 09:54 AM
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I use the Zipp pressure calculator to help me decide. The suggested pressure for a 160 lb rider with 21mm hooked tubeless rims is 62/67, 23mm hookless 56/60 and 25mm 54/57.

Last year I used 30mm Pirelli tires at 52/54, based on a 140 lb rider. This year I'm running 28 front and 30 rear on the 303s wheels at 54/54.

https://axs.sram.com/guides/tire/pressure
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Old 03-26-23, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
The Winspace wheels claim to be optimized for 25-28, so what’s the hesitation?
23mm seems to be better aero for 28mm than 21mm. My Foundation 45s are 21mm internal, and they are great so no real hesitation, but for wheels around the same price, I am running the pros and cons of buying either or. I think both are great options, I am just torn.
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Old 03-26-23, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by InvertedMP
23mm seems to be better aero for 28mm than 21mm. My Foundation 45s are 21mm internal, and they are great so no real hesitation, but for wheels around the same price, I am running the pros and cons of buying either or. I think both are great options, I am just torn.
All else equal, I think the aero difference between 28 tires on 21 internal and 28 tires on 23 internal is in the noise.
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Old 03-26-23, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
All else equal, I think the aero difference between 28 tires on 21 internal and 28 tires on 23 internal is in the noise.
I think so too. Especially for me as I am not going to ride hardcore enough to probably notice any difference.
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Old 03-26-23, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
All else equal, I think the aero difference between 28 tires on 21 internal and 28 tires on 23 internal is in the noise.
I didn't notice any difference in ride quality or tire-fit appearance. I did notice going from a 37>50mm wheel made riding in the winds less comfortable. On the 37s the wind could be blowing however hard and I didn't notice any tug on the handlebars. The 50s aren't wildly uncontrollable, but I wouldn't take my hands off when it gusts.

28mm tire on a 23mm internal, with 30mm external becomes flush. The 28mm inflates to 30mm.
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Old 03-26-23, 01:15 PM
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I have Zipp 303S.
The wheels ride great and the warranty is outstanding - Zipp will even cover crash damage while racing. I've never noticed any issues with crosswinds. Zipp uses standards Sapim CX Sprint spokes (prior to 2022 they used CX Ray) - so if you need replacements they are easy to find. The wider internal rim width works well with 28mm road tires. I was torn between these and building up a custom set from LB, and the Zipp lifetime warranty tipped the scale for me. Zipp will even cover crash damage that occurs during a race.

The main downside to Zipp 303S is that it's hookless, so the PSI limits are lower. If you're committed to tubeless this is likely a non-factor, but if you're planning to run tubes on the Zipp 303S you're still limited to the 72psi max, which might be problematic for a 28mm tire.
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Old 03-26-23, 02:27 PM
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I currently have the ENVE Foundation 45s. I have only used them for maybe 200 miles. I got a case of upgrade fever though. I like the 303s a lot and those are the ones I would recommend. I ended up going with a custom build, to a degree and am getting the ZIPP 303 Firecrest Disc laced to DT 240 EXPs with CK Rays (not my fav spokes but they are strong and easier to lace with straight-pull hubs I'm using). ZIPP wheels always ride so well. ENVEs seems stiffer and slightly quicker power transfer but I'm not worthy of all that. I prefer comfort and prefer the 303s. I also am now committed to tubeless and with that width of a rim, I prefer 32 tires so staying under 70 PSI is a must anyway. At 175 lbs now, I use 55/60.

Last edited by Chandne; 03-26-23 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 03-26-23, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la
I have Zipp 303S.
The wheels ride great and the warranty is outstanding - Zipp will even cover crash damage while racing. I've never noticed any issues with crosswinds. Zipp uses standards Sapim CX Sprint spokes (prior to 2022 they used CX Ray) - so if you need replacements they are easy to find. The wider internal rim width works well with 28mm road tires. I was torn between these and building up a custom set from LB, and the Zipp lifetime warranty tipped the scale for me. Zipp will even cover crash damage that occurs during a race.

The main downside to Zipp 303S is that it's hookless, so the PSI limits are lower. If you're committed to tubeless this is likely a non-factor, but if you're planning to run tubes on the Zipp 303S you're still limited to the 72psi max, which might be problematic for a 28mm tire.
Tubes can be used to get home with a damaged tire, but hookless rims aren't expected to be used with tubes. A 28mm tubeless tire can be used at a 73 psi maximum pressure and support a 240 lb rider. Heavy riders need to use wider tires. Zipp lists a maximum 286 lb system weight.

The 303s rims are 27mm wide. My 28mm P- zero tires measure about 29mm wide on those rims. Use 25mm IW rims and you'll get about 31mm.

https://www.sram.com/en/zipp/models/wh-303-stld-a1

If you don't want tubeless, buy a hooked rim.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 03-26-23 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 03-26-23, 05:49 PM
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I recently debated between Zipp 303S and Lun Hyper R45, and decided to go with the Hyper. I think the Hyper are a more feature-packed, premium style wheelset than the 303S.

In particular, I think the Hyper hubs are much better, primarily for the improved bracing angles with the differential flange heights on the rear and widely spaced fronts. I also trust and prefer triplet lacing, something carried over from old American Classic wheelsets, which I think were way ahead of their time and maybe the smartest wheelsets of their era. Those hub design features on the Hyper are the same elements which AC used, too (at least for Argent and precursor Road Tubeless).

I also preferred the straight-pull, wider, bladed (carbon fiber) Hyper spokes to the round, J-bend on the 303– the bend is spokes so often fail— and that the Hypers have partially recessed nipples unlike the more fully exposed and probably less aero 303S nipples. Winspace also supple 3 spare spoke/nipple sets should they be needed.

I also think that the different front/rear rim profiles on the Hyper is cool; it’s a design feature which makes sense, at least. They heights are not just staggered, but the rim cross section is different as well, their claim being the front being optimized for leading edge airflow performance and the rear for trailing edge performance.

The Hyper being 200g lighter had appeal, too, as did the hooked rim design, since I like the handling feel of higher pressures and prefer to run, for now, 25s tubeless at around 90psi. Even if I go lower pressure and/or wider rubber, since I’m rarely under 245lbs, I didn’t think getting down to 70psi or so would likely be in the cards, so hookless was too risky (or extreme; 30mm rubber? I’m not ready!).

Arguably, the 303S has a more sophisticated finish look; the bold weave on the Hyper is kinda wild, or at least a “thing.” Maybe Winspace are just out front on the next styling trend!
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Old 03-27-23, 02:53 PM
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All else being equal, isn't the 303S lighter, faster and less expensive because it's hookless?
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Old 03-27-23, 03:42 PM
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I have been browsing the Winspace site as well. Are the house-brand hubs a concern? I mean versus a custom made set with name brand hubs.
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Old 03-27-23, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
All else being equal, isn't the 303S lighter, faster and less expensive because it's hookless?
It seems reasonable to conclude that the hookless Zipp 303S would be lighter, faster and less expensive than a theoretical hooked Zipp 303S, but that wheelset doesn't exist.
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Old 03-27-23, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la
It seems reasonable to conclude that the hookless Zipp 303S would be lighter, faster and less expensive than a theoretical hooked Zipp 303S, but that wheelset doesn't exist.
Makes sense. So the hookless advantage is theoretical.
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Old 03-27-23, 07:05 PM
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I thought Zipp still made the hookless ones but for rim-brake only. They were a bit heavier (1,530 vs. 1,350) than the hookless disc ones. I am talking about the Firecrest versions. The hookless ones will have a stronger bead hook area..basically the sticking-up part of the rim that gets hit if you get a flat. The hooked ones will hold on to a tubeless tire better at high PSI. They used to use hooked in the MTB world too but now it is all hookless due to the superior impact resistance and impacts occur much more often. Well, weight too since there are a lot of weight weenies in the MTB world.
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Old 03-28-23, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by bblair
I have been browsing the Winspace site as well. Are the house-brand hubs a concern? I mean versus a custom made set with name brand hubs.
I would say no, there is no concern. Though we can see several indicators of quality and/or thoughtfulness in the hub design, but it’s really the largely invisible stuff that ultimately determines quality, like the bearing fit and whether the hub can properly support the bearings under load. That kind of stuff is revealed over extended use and through critical examination, and there are several serious engineering types on YouTube, like Hambini, Peak Torque, and Leuscher Technik who, having ridden for thousands of miles, are in accordance that not only are the hubs good, but that the Hyper wheel system is good; the bits can be good, but only as good as the whole wheel system.

As a good introduction on how to understand the elements of wheel quality, I’d recommend the following video as it’s about assessing the Hypers specifically:


It’s even more encouraging when you consider most of the reviews are of the old, pre-2023 Hyper models. For 2023, Winspace instituted hub improvements based on critiques and further enhanced quality. For example, the axle is hard anodized for increased durability, the spoke head beds in the flange now prevent twisting of the spokes, and all spokes were realigned to be fully tangential to the hub flange, to resist wind-up.
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Old 03-28-23, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Chandne
I thought Zipp still made the hookless ones but for rim-brake only. They were a bit heavier (1,530 vs. 1,350) than the hookless disc ones. I am talking about the Firecrest versions. The hookless ones will have a stronger bead hook area..basically the sticking-up part of the rim that gets hit if you get a flat. The hooked ones will hold on to a tubeless tire better at high PSI. They used to use hooked in the MTB world too but now it is all hookless due to the superior impact resistance and impacts occur much more often. Well, weight too since there are a lot of weight weenies in the MTB world.
Oh, right. I forget that there's a more direct hooked/hookless comparison in Zipp's lineup with the 303 Firecrest.

Hooked rim brake 303 Firecrest. https://www.sram.com/en/zipp/models/wh-303-ftlr-a1
19mm internal width
hooked tubeless rim/125psi limit
1530g
$2200

Hookless disc version is https://www.sram.com/en/zipp/models/wh-303-ftld-a1
25mm internal width
hookless tubeless rim/73psi limit
1352g
$2050

A non-theoretical comparison shows hookless is wider, lighter and cheaper. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the wider rim is also more aero and Zipp claims that wider/lower PSI is also faster.

So, there's that I guess...
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Old 03-28-23, 10:12 AM
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So I own the 2023 Winspace Hyper D45 Disc and I think they are simply a superior wheel in that: lighter, more aero, ceramic bearings, carbon spokes, they aren't hookless rims, and with a coupon code they can be cheaper. I will say the big catch is you are buying them directly from the manufacture in China, so even with the upgraded FEDEX/UPS it will take bare min 2-3 weeks. My back wheel was defective and while Winspace was responsive they kind of did nothing for a week and a half until I threatened to do a chargeback. They then sent me a brand new back wheel and didn't ask for the other wheel back. With this said the biggest selling point for Zipp is that you can go into most LBS and pickup a pair that day and if the wheel is defective or crashed the replacements are hassle free.

So IMO it comes down to brand/LBS experience/warranty vs performance/price
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Old 03-28-23, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
All else being equal, isn't the 303S lighter, faster and less expensive because it's hookless?
No. 303S are 1558g before sealant and heavier tires while D45 Disc are 1420g. 303S are 45mm deep front and back while the D45 is 46mm front and 54mm back. Zipp 303S are normally $1400 but sometimes you can find for $1300. D45 are $1300 but they always have a 10% coupon, free shipping, and don't have sales tax nor are most people charged import tax so the true cost is more like $1170
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Old 03-28-23, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Jrasero
I will say the big catch is you are buying them directly from the manufacture in China, so even with the upgraded FEDEX/UPS it will take bare min 2-3 weeks.
My 2023 Hypers came superfast, literally in 5 days! I ordered 3/12 and FEDEX delivered 3/17; I just checked my email records.
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