jyl

Okay, after a long hiatus, I'm building a bike.

Actually, I'm not personally building my bike, but my friend is.

What happened is, he got tired of seeing the ex-Velocult NOS Look Bernard Hinault frameset hanging in my living room, and said he had a bunch of NOS and lightly used Campagnolo 9 and 10 speed groups that we could put on it. He said this three or four times over a year. Finally, he came over and dang-near *ordered* me to get the frame over to his basement shop for a build. I mean, kind of nervy, go to a man's house, drink his wine, and slap him around until he cries Uncle and agrees to let you hang some carbon Campy on his frame. But I'm a wimp, I guess, so he prevailed.

I need to find a post, stem, and wheels.

The post is easy. It will be a Campagnolo Record Carbon 27.2 mm, not hard to find. Unless the stem ends up being a Look, in which case it will be a Look Ergostem 27.2 mm, also not hard to find.

The wheels are easy too, although spendy. They will be Zipp 303 or similar carbon medium section wheels, possibly tubular.

Wait, you ask, what's this build about? Sounds kinda weird already!

So the idea is that we are in a parallel universe, which is exactly like our current universe, except that the laws of physics are a tiny bit different. Very tiny bit. The only difference is that carbon fiber turned out to be an unsuitable material for road bike frames. Oh, they tried, but after horrific crashes and dozens of riders and spectators maimed by asploding carbon frames and flying carbon shrapnel, the ASO and UCI outlawed carbon fiber frames. That was back in the 1990s. You probably remember the terrifying crash on the Champs when a fragmenting carbon frame killed a gendarme and crippled several riders while bringing down half the peloton. I'll post the video in a sec.

Thus, every TdF has been won on a steel framed bike. The 2019 Tour de France was won by Egan Bernal riding a Pinarello steel frame with carbon everything else. We're building a racebike for the Parallel Universe 2020 Tour, folks!

Back to the problem at hand. It is the stem. The fork has a steel threaded 1" steerer, so I need a quill stem. I don't like the threaded-to-threadless adapters or stems larger in diameter than the frame tubes. But I want an open face stem. Just, well, because. Oh, and it has to be long (120-140mm) and look really goooood when *slammed*.

After some research, it looks like my choices for quill + open face stems are:

Cinelli Oyster

Cinelli Frog

3T Motus

3T Mutant

3T Evol

added - Deda Murex

added - Mavic 370

Or, if I wanted to riff on the "Look", the other choice might be:

Look Ergostem

Help me battle these choices out. Which actually worked well as stems? Which tend to break or slip? Which look goooood? Which would you choose?

Extra credit: The bare frame is 1833 g and the bare fork is 673 g. Any guesses on final bike weight?

Gary Fountain

I'm sorry I can't help as I know absolutely nothing about this era but I really did enjoy the story.

Oh..... I would go the LOOK Ergostem as I remember these stems on Look bikes in the TDF. They're probably relatively heavy and unnecessarily over-complicated but I couldn't resist a Look stem on a look bike.

Bike weight: easily lifted above your head with one arm.

jyl

This is the vid, 1994 - just LOOK at how the carbon frame shatters under the power of the final sprint, throwing the rider into the luckless gendarme while carbon shrapnel takes down the dozen nearest riders.


This was just one of the terrible crashes and injuries caused by asploding carbon fiber bicycle frames, but it was the last straw. I believe all carbon frames were outlawed in UCI competition within a month after this, and soon thereafter you couldn't give a carbon frame away.

Remember the flood of orders that swamped the steel framebuilding industry then? The bike company executives pleading and pushing containers of cash and new Ferraris at framebuilders? How all us grubby C&V bike hoarders bought big houses with the money that our stashes of lugged steel suddenly fetched, while our wives looked on adoringly and promised to let us buy as many bikes as we would ever want and keep them in all the bedrooms of our new mansions?

RiddleOfSteel

For this industrial/transportation designer, he (I) lament the post straight-arm stems a la Cinelli 1A and really anything else Nitto/Specialized etc.

I really do like the quill stem adapters and running a round-bodied stem in the "slammed" position right off the headset. It's the only correct look, and with all the carbon and black *modern* componentry going on the thing, a stem conversion with a bar clamp diameter of 31.8mm would look awesome.

(sigh...) Barring that, of your choices presented, I like the Cinelli Oyster the best as it's a clean look and has a generally horizontal or straight top line/profile--this is important to me as it's going on a bike with straight tubes. Gotta match aesthetics! And not distract from the frame. The 3T Motus is my next choice, but has that funky forehead in the front, even if its top line/profile is actually dead straight (and thus the best in that regard).

BUT....skip all of that!

Go for a Mavic 370!!

All the grace and low profile-ness of a classic quill stem, but with the best and most clever party trick! Comes in 26.0mm clamp sizes, and it's even going on a French bike.



I am in love.

jyl

OMG, how could I have forgotten the Mavic. That would be parfait indeed.

Yes, there was an unfortunate wave of curvy humpbacked quill stems back then. I don't like the plastic bits either.

The problem with the adapters is the ones I've seen all add height to the stack. Don't they?

By the way, I forgot to mention I'm looking for a headset too, but on that I'm already aiming for a needle bearing Stronglight - in fact, I think I have one somewhere here. But mine doesn't say "B. Hinault", so there's that.

unworthy1

seems to me I once had an alloy top nut with B. Hinault printed on, it's not super-durable printing IIRC so may not be in pristine shape. Assuming I find that would you care to swap with me for a plain-Jane top nut from SL A-9? Hopefully we have matching threading, do you have/ need EN or FR threading?

dddd

I've done the slammed quill stem thing on a couple of frame-too-large builds, it looks ok because my saddle height is at least a couple of inches up on the height of the top of the bars. But two out of three don't qualify with the requisite removable face plate.

That LOOK bike posted by RiddleOfSteel with the electronic derailers and (presumably) the French quill stem is quite a display. Matching pedals!

Look fork on this one (crummy photo, sorry), but it's a Centurion frame. Stem is a Control-Tech quill stem that looks more modern.

The Steel Centurion rides well for such an oversized bike. It's stem is actually hyper-slammed into a modified steerer and headset!

The Merckx Ti EX has a Deda open-face 3-bolt quill stem, also slammed. I get such good deals on big bikes that few can ride.

jyl

Yes, likely would do. PM me if you find the B. Hinault top nut from your Stronglight B10, I'll PM you if I find the Stronglight A9! We'll exchange threading details too.

CliffordK

I've used these on a couple of bikes.

Blcycle Quill Stem 31.8mm

https://www.ebay.com/itm/J-L-NOS-Thr...s/153655631661

https://www.ebay.com/itm/351784121927

https://www.ebay.com/itm/253289874010

It looks like they're listed as 80mm and 90mm. I'm not sure if they are the same or different.



I've read theoretical complaints about the 2-bolt, but so far it has worked for me.



It looks like Nitto also has a welded steel 31.8 stem.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nitto-Ui-12...r/192887329028



Also a few MTB and adjustable stems.

Spaghetti Legs 

Origin 8 makes a face plate quill stem. If you look quickly you might think it’s a Cinelli Grammo

droppedandlost 

not all adapters/conversions look bad (innicycle conversion headset)

CliffordK

Hmmm...

I'm wondering about the concept of merging one of these Nitto style stems with a Llewellyn style stem.







I'm wondering how far down one could rotate the faceplate, and still safely attach it with the 4 bolts. I'm thinking rotating the faceplate say 45° downward. But, that still leaves the bolts pretty well out front. Possibly slightly past the 45° point if one goes with a larger handlebar tube than stem tube.

jyl

Wow, there are more quill open face choices than I thought, and the newer ones take modern fatty bars!

It seems that the ultra long stems are harder to find in modern quills. Back in the day, 130 and 140 mm were not uncommon. But the Nitto and other current quills are often only available up to 120 mm.

Perhaps the modern hand position on the hoods, way out there, has made ultra long stems less needed, even by misshapen humans like me. I dunno, my Vitus 997 has Campagnolo 10 brifters on ergo bars, and I still wish it had a longer stem.

CliffordK

I've wondered a bit about that.

I never used to ride the hoods until I started upgrading. Now, I get out there a lot (but still like the tops).

I always used to have the seat and bars close to level.

And, I used to ride the drops a fair amount. 50%?

Now, I've experimented with more bar drop. Modern brakes. Use the hoods a lot. And hardly hit the drops.

And, of course, am older.

But, if you are modernizing, it might be worth trying a shorter stem.

jyl

Hey, as long as we're talking about the cockpit.

When Bernal won the Tour this year, on his steel Pinarello, was he using carbon bars? I mean, I know there are carbon drop bars, but are the TdF pros actually using them?

jyl

I keep forgetting. Habits die hard.

We're not building a true C & V here! We're building a modern racebike for the 2020 Parallel Universe Tour de France!

So I went to see what bars the pros are riding today, or at least what they were riding at the start of the 2018 season.


Looky there, hardly a round alloy bar in sight. Most are using carbon integrated aero stem/bars with flat tops, a mix of ergo and traditional drops, internal cable routing.

Hmm. What's the closest we can get to that in our Parallel Universe where there are no carbon fiber frames?

There is the incredibly cool innicycle integrated 1" headset/threadless steerer.

There are carbon integrated aero stem/bars. Some terribly pricey, some not so much.

Can't fully bury the cables, but we can run them as cleanly and under the tape as possible.

We are not Parallel Universe Team Sky, by the way. We are one of those French wild card Pro Conti entries. That's why we don't have electronic shifting. Or discs. We are kind of the Parallel Universe version of this:

https://road.cc/sites/default/files/...?itok=spG9l6wf

I'm not entirely in my comfort zone, thinking about this newfangled stuff. But the logic of our premise points in this direction.

rosefarts

I have a pretty good idea. My Tallerico has a similar frame weight and the steel fork is 650g. I switched to carbon since I needed a slightly higher cockpit and I refused to have a stem pointing to the sky.

I have a pair of Campy Chorus hubs built on Open Pros, also a pair of Stan's 3.30ti wheels. There's about 400 grams difference between the two. The Stans are pretty similar to the weight of your Zipper 303.

I do have the earlier 10sp aluminum Ergo's and derailleurs, yours are carbon so that'll help. I run a Chorus ti seatpost with SLR cutout. You won't get much lighter than that regardless of material.

Drumroll. Spec'd as you've shown in the other thread. The bike should be 17.5-18 lbs.

Try not to think about this universe, where a carbon frame and fork are almost 3lbs lighter than your frame and fork.

Kuromori

Profile and other adapters that don't have gradual tapers can be set up so the stem is slammed against the locknut. I believe Ullrich won the '97 TdF on a threadless steel fork.

jyl

Thank you for that answer!

If it comes in there, this will be one of the lightest bikes I own, probably the lightest.

Yeah, in the Parallel Universe there are no 6 kg roadfeathers.

verktyg 

All the hoopla about aero this and aero that and then people use ugly open faced stems that look like they belong on a BMX rig....

I can see the advantage of open faced stems, especially on MTBs or where someone messes around with their bars and stems a lot.

For me after riding derailleur bikes for almost 55 years, I know what bars and stems work for me and my adjustments are only a few degrees of tilt or a few mm of height changes.

Carbon Destructive Material Failure Test...



verktyg

rosefarts

Jyl, light builds, that don't have light frames are all about the wheels. But you probably want to ride the bike too.

Low spoke count carbon tubulars from LBW and the lightest hubs Bitex makes would exactly suit this bike. It'd also give you an 1100gm or lighter wheelset for probably $6-700 if you know how to build wheels. That plus the lack of clinchers would make the bike super light. Probably 3-400gm lighter than my previous estimates.

I didn't really suggest this since you seem like you just want to ride around. Clinchers, whether tubed or not, are a lot simpler for everyday use. They're heavier though.

I had plenty of race day carbon and aluminum tubies. That's where they stay, race day. No doubt though, in this alternate reality, the bikes all have tubulars.

jyl

This will be a tubular build - I like tubulars and the Parallel Universe World Tour peloton rides mostly tubulars. I have clincher bikes for JRA :-)

Cyclist753

..

jyl

I've bought a couple of quill stems for this project, but have decided to go threadless just because I really should try it. I've found some threadless stems that look good e.g. the Zipp Sprint Stem and the much more affordable Ritchey Chicane Stem. The tricky thing is that quill stems commonly come in -17 degree, but not that many threadless stems do. When the top tube is slightly sloping as in carbon frames, a slightly upward sloping stem doesn't look terrible, but when the top tube is horizontal, and the stem is slammed, a horizontal stem looks best to me.

rosefarts

Your project has my attention because it's something I would do. For a few seconds I was even temped to do it to my new old Spectrum. It's too original, so I'll leave it alone.

Threadless is superior in every way except one, easily raising and lowering the stem. I need mine higher and even though I had a threadless steel fork, the previous owner had slammed it. I had to get a new fork to get the fit and aesthetics I wanted.

If you know someone totally competent, you can have a sleeve brazed into the steerer and a piece of 1" Columbus on to the sleeve. This should be reliable and allow you to run threadless on that fork. It'll be spendy, will probably require you to repaint it, and will add a dash of weight.

Or you can get a brand new 1" carbon fork for $100 from China/eBay