One x drivetrain... Hoping I made the right decision
06-19-21, 02:11 PM
#51
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So I did a quick and dirty calculation that basically took the BB center-to-center to rear axle measurement and 1/2 a cassette width. The CTC varies but around 15.5 to 16 is probably close enough. 400mm splits the difference and is a nice round number. This is pretty rudimentary and is not intended to analyze any other factors. But I wanted to know what angles are we really talking about.
For a 1x11, I used 400mm and 20mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get a roughly calculated angle of 2.86 degrees. Which is the maximum chain angle running at either end of the cassette.
For a 1x6, I used 400mm and 15mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get an angle of 2.15 degrees maximum chain angle.
Just for fun I took a 2x8 setup and cross chained it. Using 400mm and 20.2mm (1/2 cassette width of 17.7 + 2.5mm chainring adjustment) to get an angle of 2.89 degrees. This would be big-big or small-small.
Where does the cross chain "angle" become an issue? Is 2 degrees the limit? 2.5 degrees?
An obvious response is anything beyond a single speed causes theoretical wear.
I was pretty surprised that the angle we are talking about is less than a degree.
John
For a 1x11, I used 400mm and 20mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get a roughly calculated angle of 2.86 degrees. Which is the maximum chain angle running at either end of the cassette.
For a 1x6, I used 400mm and 15mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get an angle of 2.15 degrees maximum chain angle.
Just for fun I took a 2x8 setup and cross chained it. Using 400mm and 20.2mm (1/2 cassette width of 17.7 + 2.5mm chainring adjustment) to get an angle of 2.89 degrees. This would be big-big or small-small.
Where does the cross chain "angle" become an issue? Is 2 degrees the limit? 2.5 degrees?
An obvious response is anything beyond a single speed causes theoretical wear.
I was pretty surprised that the angle we are talking about is less than a degree.
John
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/f...oper-shifting/
According to the article, on a typical road bike, the most drag is in small-small 39-11, which has 3 watts more drag than the nearly equivalent 53-15. The smaller cog and chainring as well as the chain angle contribute to the increased drag.
The source of the data was from a company called Friction Facts, which was acquired by Ceramic Speed, and the data doesn't seem to be freely available now.
06-19-21, 02:41 PM
#52
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that’s exactly why we went from two chainrings to three. This whole 1x doesn’t make any sense to me. If you need more climbing range then get it with a triple. When I see a single chain ring with a gigantic cluster in the back I break out laughing. Like the one they gave Boris Johnson at the recent G7 meeting. What a joke.
Almost as funny as those tiny little cassettes that you need an extra shifter, derailleur, and muliple rings to make work.
Last edited by Kapusta; 06-19-21 at 02:45 PM.
06-19-21, 03:08 PM
#53
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I understand your point as well and you are 100% incorrect that a 1x causes more cross chaining. The school which awarded you an engineering degree should be returning your monies. If you do not have an engineering degree then perhaps that is why you do not understand the issue and now feel need to turn to semantics (rhetoric) to try to salvage your spurious argument.
Nice try. I accept fully that you do not understand. At all.
The biggest negative about cross chaining is chain rub on front derailleur. It is not a myth. It really happens. And it is absolutely eliminated when there is no front derailleur. Is there something about this that you do not understand? Yhat is what the argument really comes down to and why cross chaining is a negative. All the other reasons why it was bad previously have mostly been eliminated by modern techs.
I repeat it: Cross chaining leads to chain rub on a front derailleur (a negative) and this is eliminated when there is no front derailleur.
Understand or still want to take a piss on this?
Ima go ride my 1x now, on some really big hills here, and 'cross chain' my way into a better day then dealing with silliness.
Nice try. I accept fully that you do not understand. At all.
The biggest negative about cross chaining is chain rub on front derailleur. It is not a myth. It really happens. And it is absolutely eliminated when there is no front derailleur. Is there something about this that you do not understand? Yhat is what the argument really comes down to and why cross chaining is a negative. All the other reasons why it was bad previously have mostly been eliminated by modern techs.
I repeat it: Cross chaining leads to chain rub on a front derailleur (a negative) and this is eliminated when there is no front derailleur.
Understand or still want to take a piss on this?
Ima go ride my 1x now, on some really big hills here, and 'cross chain' my way into a better day then dealing with silliness.
Case in point, I have a Tiagra triple drivetrain on my road bike. 12-30 10-speed cassette and Tiagra 4603 50-39-30 crank. The FD is a Tiagra triple FD-4603, rear is a Tiagra 4601 SS (short cage). I have ridden in all rear cogs on all three chainwheels, and the FD has never rubbed. Now I do not usually use the small/small or large/large combos, but tried it as I had never had a triple and wanted to see if there was more rubbing. There was not. That has been my experiences with real riding. This is on a bike with a 425mm chainestay and 130mm hub. Others may have different experiences with the same or different setups.
06-19-21, 04:06 PM
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Chain rub is a non-issue.
06-19-21, 04:35 PM
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that’s exactly why we went from two chainrings to three. This whole 1x doesn’t make any sense to me. If you need more climbing range then get it with a triple. When I see a single chain ring with a gigantic cluster in the back I break out laughing. Like the one they gave Boris Johnson at the recent G7 meeting. What a joke.
06-19-21, 04:37 PM
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I bought a Sirrus X5.0 with a 1x drivetrain a little bit back..I live in very hilly New England finding myself in the cross chain situation a lot for the lower gears. Just read a article on how the 1x drivetrain wears out much faster because of this...Has this been a issue for anyone or am I just worrying to worry? I'm hoping Specialized somehow accommodated for this with beefed up chainrings etc.
Thanks
Thanks
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06-21-21, 08:50 AM
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I live in a hilly area and my road bike has a 2x 50/34 crank and 11-34 cassette. I can't remember the last time I used the 34t chainring.
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06-21-21, 08:56 AM
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The biggest negative about cross chaining is chain rub on front derailleur. It is not a myth. It really happens. And it is absolutely eliminated when there is no front derailleur. Is there something about this that you do not understand? Yhat is what the argument really comes down to and why cross chaining is a negative. All the other reasons why it was bad previously have mostly been eliminated by modern techs.
I repeat it: Cross chaining leads to chain rub on a front derailleur (a negative) and this is eliminated when there is no front derailleur..
I repeat it: Cross chaining leads to chain rub on a front derailleur (a negative) and this is eliminated when there is no front derailleur..
06-22-21, 02:23 PM
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Patiently waiting for unterhausen to draw the respective 1X and 2X free body diagrams. Hell, make a 3X just for kicks!
06-23-21, 02:29 PM
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I finally had my bike shop check the noise out..He definitely heard I in the first 3 low gears... Actually while on the bike stand with no weight or tension on it you could actually see the chain want to jump a little on only the very lowest gear...He checked all adjustments and alignments..oiled the chain took it for another ride and checked everything on the stand again and came to the conclusion that it was unfortunately normal due to the large cassette and position of chain while going over to the big lowest gear...He showed me the chain angle which was really crossed in that configuration and basically said it was the nature of the set up...so I guess I just ride and enjoy and not let the noise bother me.
06-23-21, 03:21 PM
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I finally had my bike shop check the noise out..He definitely heard I in the first 3 low gears... Actually while on the bike stand with no weight or tension on it you could actually see the chain want to jump a little on only the very lowest gear...He checked all adjustments and alignments..oiled the chain took it for another ride and checked everything on the stand again and came to the conclusion that it was unfortunately normal due to the large cassette and position of chain while going over to the big lowest gear...He showed me the chain angle which was really crossed in that configuration and basically said it was the nature of the set up...so I guess I just ride and enjoy and not let the noise bother me.
06-23-21, 03:40 PM
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that’s exactly why we went from two chainrings to three. This whole 1x doesn’t make any sense to me. If you need more climbing range then get it with a triple. When I see a single chain ring with a gigantic cluster in the back I break out laughing. Like the one they gave Boris Johnson at the recent G7 meeting. What a joke.
06-24-21, 12:45 PM
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Range isn’t the issue with 1x it’s the steps on the cassette some folks are sensitive to bigger jumps which is probably why 2x and 3x won’t go away.
06-24-21, 01:58 PM
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While I will avoid the more academic discussion as to what constitutes cross chaining, in common precautionary parlance for triples, it refers to shifting into the opposite spectrum of cassette cogs from the chain ring you are currently in.
If you are in the large chain ring, avoid the low end of the cassette. If you are in the small chain ring, avoid the higher range cogs. The middle chain ring usually shifts the full range of the cog.
It is not just to avoid chain angle but also chain tension/sag. On a wider range cassette you can stretch and jam the rear derailer in high/low or have way too much sag in low high, depending.
1x is the same as running up and down the middle chainring, thus avoiding cross chaining.
With a double and tight road cluster you may never experience that.
If you are in the large chain ring, avoid the low end of the cassette. If you are in the small chain ring, avoid the higher range cogs. The middle chain ring usually shifts the full range of the cog.
It is not just to avoid chain angle but also chain tension/sag. On a wider range cassette you can stretch and jam the rear derailer in high/low or have way too much sag in low high, depending.
1x is the same as running up and down the middle chainring, thus avoiding cross chaining.
With a double and tight road cluster you may never experience that.
