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Bike build, what frame?

Old 08-03-21, 02:04 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
My Soma, like a lot of road racing geometry frames, has 40cm long chainstays, my gravel bike (and others) have 42.5 or so, so right there you've got some increased frame weight,. My wheels are old school narrower 19mm wide rim brake rims, my gravel rims are 25mm, more metal, more weight. 28mm slick road tire is going to be lighter than a semi-knobby 43mmm tire. Tubes are heavier as well. It all adds up, maybe not 5 lbs, but I didn't say that, I said maybe 3 lbs to 25 + or so,
Meh...I think you're reaching now. Of course a longer chain stay will weigh more, as will the seat stays, because geometry dictates they'll be longer. But, they won't weight a lot more, a few grams at best. Also, wheels...internal; width of the rim is not a linear indicator of rim weight, my 25mm internal width deep section carbon rims on my gravel bike weigh less than a set of 19mm internal width aluminum low profile rims I still have hanging in the garage. I give you the tires, that's noticeable, a few hundred grams, but tubes v tubeless sealant? The 5 pounds was to my build at 9kg, but even getting a steel frame like the OP is seeking to bloat up to 25 pounds would take more effort than shaving it down to the 20-21 range. The days of riding boat anchors are now entirely down to bad choices, at any budget.

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Old 08-03-21, 07:37 AM
  #27  
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I've been off the forums for...well...idk years... so this might be an outdated recommendation. How about a Salsa Vaya. I'm a southern VT rider and haven't found any gravel/trails it cant handle yet. Not the most spritely on the road though. In fact I may move on from it for that reason, however in the 7 years I've been abusing it, this bike hasn't left me stranded yet. Bike will go fast but it is not fast.
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Old 08-03-21, 07:49 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Wspsux View Post
I've been off the forums for...well...idk years... so this might be an outdated recommendation. How about a Salsa Vaya. I'm a southern VT rider and haven't found any gravel/trails it cant handle yet. Not the most spritely on the road though. In fact I may move on from it for that reason, however in the 7 years I've been abusing it, this bike hasn't left me stranded yet. Bike will go fast but it is not fast.
I considered the Vaya, but it has quite low tire clearances. 700c x 38 and 650b x 45.

One interesting, and very affordable option is the Sonder Camino Al. Aluminium frame and carbon fork, 700c x 50 and 650b x 2.1" clearances, $360.
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Old 08-03-21, 07:53 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by chiefsilverback View Post
I considered the Vaya, but it has quite low tire clearances. 700c x 38 and 650b x 45.

One interesting, and very affordable option is the Sonder Camino Al. Aluminium frame and carbon fork, 700c x 50 and 650b x 2.1" clearances, $360.
I'd be curious to know where you got those specs, my 2016 came stock with 41 mm Surly Knards. At a glance Im 90% certrain I can go bigger than what I've got in there (still run Knards)
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Old 08-03-21, 07:55 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Wspsux View Post
I'd be curious to know where you got those specs, my 2016 came stock with 41 mm Surly Knards. At a glance Im 90% certrain I can go bigger than what I've got in there (still run Knards)
My mistake, I misread the specs, they have 700c with fenders and 700c without fenders. 45 with, 38 without, but not 650b compatible?
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Old 08-03-21, 08:34 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by chiefsilverback View Post
My mistake, I misread the specs, they have 700c with fenders and 700c without fenders. 45 with, 38 without, but not 650b compatible?
I haven't run 650B although I've kicked the idea around in the past. I know other people have, might lower your BB.

Check out this thread on MTBR, its probably the most vast resource for Vaya stuff. However I'm happy to talk about that bike all day.

Vaya Builds | Mountain Bike Reviews Forum (mtbr.com)

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Old 08-03-21, 12:06 PM
  #32  
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Slight tangent as it's out of budget, but Salsa Cutthroat frameset is $2500, built Cutthroat Apex 1 is $2900. Does the built bike use the same frame, $400 for everything else you need to build a bike seems crazy cheap!?!?
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Old 08-03-21, 12:12 PM
  #33  
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I think this is the frame around which I will be building my next bike.

https://www.rodeo-labs.com/shop/framesets/flaanimal5/
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Old 08-03-21, 01:50 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by chiefsilverback View Post
Slight tangent as it's out of budget, but Salsa Cutthroat frameset is $2500, built Cutthroat Apex 1 is $2900. Does the built bike use the same frame, $400 for everything else you need to build a bike seems crazy cheap!?!?
The fully built bike isnt crazy cheap, the frame is just crazy steep.
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Old 08-03-21, 02:00 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by chiefsilverback View Post
Slight tangent as it's out of budget, but Salsa Cutthroat frameset is $2500, built Cutthroat Apex 1 is $2900. Does the built bike use the same frame, $400 for everything else you need to build a bike seems crazy cheap!?!?
That’s what I was driving at in post #7: it probably makes sense for you to be looking at complete bike. Needing frameset, wheels, brakes, brifters and rotors, it’s going to cost you more to piecemeal than buy complete.
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Old 08-03-21, 02:30 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
That’s what I was driving at in post #7: it probably makes sense for you to be looking at complete bike. Needing frameset, wheels, brakes, brifters and rotors, it’s going to cost you more to piecemeal than buy complete.
I have a full drivetrain including brifters, tires, bar and stem, and saddle, so I need frame, fork, headset, seat post and wheels. I know I want to invest in a good set of wheels (~$500), which I'm not going to get on a ~$1500 built bike. All I would end up with is a lot of parts that I'm never going to use in my spares box and spending more than I need to.
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Old 08-03-21, 02:46 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
The fully built bike isnt crazy cheap, the frame is just crazy steep.
The Fargo Apex 1 and the Cutthroat Apex 1 have near identical builds, but on paper you're only paying $400 for the build kit on the Cutthroat, but $1300 for the same kit on the Fargo where the frameset is available for $1200...
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Old 08-03-21, 02:56 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by chiefsilverback View Post
I have a full drivetrain including brifters, tires, bar and stem, and saddle, so I need frame, fork, headset, seat post and wheels. I know I want to invest in a good set of wheels (~$500), which I'm not going to get on a ~$1500 built bike. All I would end up with is a lot of parts that I'm never going to use in my spares box and spending more than I need to.
I dunno what you have exactly, but it sounded like a Quick 4 with V brakes, so a 9 speed Altus/Deore mix? I’m pretty comfy saying you’re not going backwards on the Quick’s component spec with a new bike, and would probably do better…newer, at least, but probably 10 spd, too, though I realize 1x9 is your jam.

I guess you could use your existing brifters if you’re fine with cable actuated discs, but you still need brake calipers. Something road lever pull compatible like Avid BB7 Road are probably $70/ea, plus $30 rotors, so call it $100/wheel. Maybe JuinTech has something less pricey, and TRP HyRd would be somewhat more.

Anyway, speaking as someone who’s built several frame up bikes between my first in ‘92 and most recent 5 months ago, it’s not at all obvious to me that going piecemeal with what you’ve got is gong to land you anything better or less expensive than buying complete, but maybe you can make it work.
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Old 08-03-21, 02:59 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by chiefsilverback View Post
The Fargo Apex 1 and the Cutthroat Apex 1 have near identical builds, but on paper you're only paying $400 for the build kit on the Cutthroat, but $1300 for the same kit on the Fargo where the frameset is available for $1200...
Yeah, frame costs are crazy and pretty arbitrary. Ive found this especially true with QBP brands.
Pre-pandemic, I could take an AllCity frame, buy components at full retail price online, and build a higher spec bike for the same cost as their drop bar gravel and road full build offerings.

Trek, Cervelo, and many more are similar- the frame price is 80% of the full build's price.
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Old 08-03-21, 03:03 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I dunno what you have exactly, but it sounded like a Quick 4 with V brakes, so a 9 speed Altus/Deore mix? I’m pretty comfy saying you’re not going backwards on the Quick’s component spec with a new bike, and would probably do better…newer, at least, but probably 10 spd, too, though I realize 1x9 is your jam.
I've got a Microshift Advent X drivetrain with 11-48 cassette, Eaton EA90 cranks and BB, Wolf Tooth Components chainring, Brooks C17 saddle, PNW Components Coast bar and stem, and a pair of lightly used WTB 700cx40 Byways.

I'm planning ~$500 for wheels, ~$200 for brakes and rotors (probably TRP Spyres), and then the frameset/fork and headset.
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Old 08-04-21, 03:33 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by chiefsilverback View Post
I've got a Microshift Advent X drivetrain with 11-48 cassette, Eaton EA90 cranks and BB, Wolf Tooth Components chainring, Brooks C17 saddle, PNW Components Coast bar and stem, and a pair of lightly used WTB 700cx40 Byways.

I'm planning ~$500 for wheels, ~$200 for brakes and rotors (probably TRP Spyres), and then the frameset/fork and headset.
Cool. Get the $360 Sonder frameset, an appropriate headset, and port over your pre-existing stuff for a $1100 10spd Microshift mech brake and save $350 compared to a fully outfitted Sonder Camino AL Apex 1x11 with hydro brakes at $1,449.

The Breezer Radar X is similarly spec’d to the Sonder with Apex 1x11 at $1.5k, suggesting there are other complete bike options at that pricepoint.

You could probably sell the complete Quick for $200-$300, reducing your total outlay for a complete, new bike to $1150, virtually the same cost as the inferior spec rebuild.

The leftover from the rebuild, however (i.e. the stripped Quick frameset with v brakes), is probably worth zero $,

Even if a totally new bike cost $200 or $300 more than the rebuild, I’d consider that pretty comparable. Of course if your budget is tighter and/or you don’t want the risk of reselling the old bike, or if you don’t want a second bike, that’ll tip the scales. I have 10 bikes, so I’m inclined to think that having more than one bike is a good thing, but I get not everyone is the same on that.
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Old 08-04-21, 07:00 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Cool. Get the $360 Sonder frameset, an appropriate headset, and port over your pre-existing stuff for a $1100 10spd Microshift mech brake and save $350 compared to a fully outfitted Sonder Camino AL Apex 1x11 with hydro brakes at $1,449.

The Breezer Radar X is similarly spec’d to the Sonder with Apex 1x11 at $1.5k, suggesting there are other complete bike options at that pricepoint.

You could probably sell the complete Quick for $200-$300, reducing your total outlay for a complete, new bike to $1150, virtually the same cost as the inferior spec rebuild.

The leftover from the rebuild, however (i.e. the stripped Quick frameset with v brakes), is probably worth zero $,

Even if a totally new bike cost $200 or $300 more than the rebuild, I’d consider that pretty comparable. Of course if your budget is tighter and/or you don’t want the risk of reselling the old bike, or if you don’t want a second bike, that’ll tip the scales. I have 10 bikes, so I’m inclined to think that having more than one bike is a good thing, but I get not everyone is the same on that.
I appreciate the comments, and I've got 12 bikes in the family fleet at the moment so I do a fair bit of wrenching and upgrading.

I'm not sure how you can argue that the wider range Advent X drivetrain is inferior to the Apex 1? I'm not a good enough cyclist to worry about that one extra ratio somewhere in the cassette. As for the brakes, the TRP Spyres are specced on some pretty expensive bikes and they always seem to be well reviewed. Also all the other bikes I have fitted with hydraulic brakes are either Shimano or Tektro/TRP using mineral oil, I don't want to muck around having to get bleed kits for SRAM DOT based brakes for one bike.

Also you focus on the brakes/drivetrain, but what about wheels? I've never ridden a bike with a 'good' wheel set, but every article I've read, or video I've watched about upgrading bikes suggests that an upgraded wheelset makes the biggest single improvement. Buying a $1500 built bike won't give me a good wheelset so I'd still need to spend another $500+...
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Old 08-04-21, 07:58 AM
  #43  
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When it comes to building bikes, I like to prioritize: frame, fork, wheels, everything else; in that order.

Frame and fork are the basis of the build, the wheels are the most important component. This is based on where and how you want to ride. It will also enable certain drivetrains or not.

After this, I like to look at cranks...
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Old 08-04-21, 08:48 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by chiefsilverback View Post
I appreciate the comments, and I've got 12 bikes in the family fleet at the moment so I do a fair bit of wrenching and upgrading.

I'm not sure how you can argue that the wider range Advent X drivetrain is inferior to the Apex 1? I'm not a good enough cyclist to worry about that one extra ratio somewhere in the cassette. As for the brakes, the TRP Spyres are specced on some pretty expensive bikes and they always seem to be well reviewed. Also all the other bikes I have fitted with hydraulic brakes are either Shimano or Tektro/TRP using mineral oil, I don't want to muck around having to get bleed kits for SRAM DOT based brakes for one bike.

Also you focus on the brakes/drivetrain, but what about wheels? I've never ridden a bike with a 'good' wheel set, but every article I've read, or video I've watched about upgrading bikes suggests that an upgraded wheelset makes the biggest single improvement. Buying a $1500 built bike won't give me a good wheelset so I'd still need to spend another $500+...
I could point out that the Breezer Radar X I mentioned uses TRP Hy/Rd semi-hydro brakes and not SRAMs, that its spec’d WTB i25 wheelset is the one you said you wanted the Journeyman have, and that swapping a $20 30t chainring— something you already do and like doing— onto it yields the same gear inches as your low 34/48 combo, but you seem to have it all figured out to your tastes, so I’ll just say the Sonder Camino frameset seems to be a stompin’ deal, and please do post a review of the thing if you get it; I’m not familiar with the brand at all.
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Old 08-06-21, 06:53 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by dwmckee View Post
For about the same price as the entry level Hunts you can get Easton EA70s or Shimano GRX wheels which are more durable and both have better hubs. Both come with straigt pull spokes.
Perhaps this is region dependent, but the Eastons and Shimanos are waaaay more expensive than the Hunts where I live. So it's a bit apples / oranges.
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