cudak888 

That was James Terburg's frame; he posted it to the forum a few months ago (before selling it, obviously). Presently, this is the only information contained about it in the Registry:

There is little more about it in his forum thread: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...Identification

I have it down as a P12, for I don't believe the cable stops were ever mentioned. Let me know if you would like me to update its ownership.

Stan, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the P12's come with stamped horizontal dropouts?

-Kurt

VaAu

Scupper (Stan) said:

"Many P12s were ordered with chrome plated head lugs, fork blade tips, and rear triangle tips, so the fact that the subject bike has chrome doesn't necessarily mean it's a P11."

OK, best I can do is conclude it is P11 or P12.

I'll spend some time trying to track down a fork (obviously it won't be THE G78 fork). Not yet sure how I will confirm that potential forks are even Paramounts early 60s. May have to settle for an early 60s vintage 531 fork that is 'identical' to original fork.

A few months from now you may see this frame on Ebay ! The mystery part is almost as much fun as the bike !!!

VaAu

cudak888
(Kurt)

Precisely. I bought it from James last week. I will review the thread you mention.

Thanks!

VaAu

You said:
"Stan, correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the P12's come with stamped horizontal dropouts?"

Earlier in this thread Stan posted catalogue picture of a P12. Looks like the dropouts are not horizontal in the pic. Possibly horizontal was only for track bike?.

Anyhow, I think the best guess for the frame is P11 OR P12.
The rear brake guides were either removed or were never present IF this frame was somehow a special order (which seems somewhat unlikely).

Thanks for referring me to the other thread...I now know that there should be steerer tube markings on potential forks I find that would confirm if fork is Paramount.

James, if your out there...did the fellow you bought the frame from pass any info along to you?

Thanks

Scooper

I don't think so, Kurt. The P14s came with horizontal stamped track ends, but I believe both the P11 and P12 models had Campy 1010 Gran Sport dropouts.

Isn't this your '61 P12?

Scooper

All of the P11 and P12 catalog pictures I've posted in this thread show what appear to be Campy 1010 Gran Sport (eyelets) horizontal dropouts with adjusting screws.

VaAu

Stan,

I just noticed that the BB shell has no brazed-on guides or channels under the shell.

Did the 1961 P11/12s rely on some type of guide that would attach to seat tube?

Scooper

Yes; I believe the Campy 626 Gear Cable Clip was used as it was in the 1960 Campagnolo catalog. Later, the 626A Twin Gear Cable Clip that appeared in the 1968 catalog was used.

pastorbobnlnh 

The Campy derailleur cable guide actually attaches to the down tube. You can see it by peeking through my chainrings. Just follow the cable.

Scooper

Right, Bob. I missed that. Here's my cable guide looking down.

Scooper

Regarding the dropouts, here's the 1968 catalog identifying the 1010 dropouts as belonging to the Record group, but the 1960 catalog identified them as Gran Sport.

well biked

Thanks Scooper, that makes sense.

JohnDThompson 

The 1010 "Record" dropouts were forged; the 1010 "Sport" dropouts were stamped.

Scooper

Right; the stamped dropouts were designated 1010/1 and didn't have the raised clamping surfaces, nor did they have adjusting bolts. In earlier catalogs the forged 1010 dropouts with the raised clamping surface and the adjusting bolts were called "Gran Sport".

Note that the red and white 1964 specifications for the P11 and P12 on the first page of this thread state that both frames had Campagnolo Gran Sport rear fork ends.

VaAu

Great! Thanks for the education.

Pastor Bob:
Great PICs of the cable clip-on.

cudak888 

The P12 and 13 have the 1010/1010A's, but I thought some of the early tourist frames had conventional stamped dropouts as on the electroforged Schwinn frames.

The 1010 Record dropouts began their life as the Gran Sport offering. Campagnolo bumped them up to the Record nameplate once Record replaced Gran Sport as their top group.

-Kurt

Scooper

Kurt, in the fifties they did, but by 1961 they had changed to the Campy 1010. Here's a 1950 Paramount tourist (3-speed S-A hub) with stamped rear track ends.

cld_hrtd

I am out here! THis was my frame, but no; I didn't get any information from the seller that would be applicable past what's been mentioned here. I wish I could help more. Seemed to have wonderful potential. I'll keep tabs on this thread to see what you find!! BTW, the proceeds from the Paramount went into my frame building fund. Let me know if I can help you with anything at all in the future!

-JT

cudak888 

Sorry for bumping up an old thread, but does VaAu still have this frame?

-Kurt

753proguy

A P-11 with the chrome option perhaps? Anyways, looks nice. Schwinn's chrome was outstanding quality (those darn Schwinn Engineers were picky!), so it is entirely possible that the chrome is original to the frame.

The serial number and the Sport derailleur spring hole both support early 1960s dating. I have a '59 that is a 'C' serial, and a '63 that is a 'P' serial.

cudak888 

There's no question as to what it is with the G78 serial, though it's definitely not a P11, unless it was ordered as a 5 or 10 speed. Second-gen P11's, despite having Campagnolo dropouts, had their hangers removed if ordered as 3-speeds.

-Kurt

753proguy

Definitely not a P-11 unless it is a P-11....

Definitely not a P-12 unless it is a P-12.....

Glad we solved that!

Jim5

I have a 1961 Schwinn Paramount with a serial number of G76. Nervex lugs 61 and 64 degrees D22 2 E38. It's at Waterford for a badly needed paint job. It did have cable bosses on the top tube which Richard Schwinn said were added later since they weren't put on originally; also he said it was a special order bicycle. It had white paint with a red primer, which was unusual but not unheard of.

kc0yef 

Someone loved it a MICHE sealed bottom bracket

guettler

I am reading this thread that includes the G76 and G78 with must interest since I just obtained G77. I will attached pics when possible.
Great information.