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I need off-topic torch and workshop help (glass)

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I need off-topic torch and workshop help (glass)

Old 03-31-22, 11:40 PM
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I need off-topic torch and workshop help (glass)

First post edit 12/3/22 with TL; DR what I've learned. O2 concentrators are about $400 for 5 lpm which is fine for a frame building torch but too small for glass. Glass torches need tens of lpm and a bottle. Possible solution with a concentrator is to attach an O2 compressor and fill your own bottles but it's by far a higher initial cost than just a welding bottle. Another possibility is to run concentrators in parallel to meet the capacity of your torch. Maybe worth it if you stick with it long enough or work hard enough to amortize. The attraction of medical castoffs is the price. Industrial concentrators exist but they are expensive.

---------------- the original below

My wife is a glass artist. So far she has been doing stained glass but she is developing her skills in lamp work. This is making beads and small figures out of glass, and some small scale blowing. For Christmas I got her a kit with a propane torch called a Hot Head, which is a little better but not different than a torch for plumbing. This is sufficient to do soda glass beads, but it's not sufficiently hot or nice enough to do figurines in borosilicate glass, which needs an O2-propane torch.

She's looking to me for help setting it up safely, and what to buy. I'm looking for advice or just opinions about same. Right now she is envisioning using the same workshop she does for her stained glass, which is a downstairs french-door bedroom. She wants the tanks outdoors and a vent hood or maybe just a fan set into the window. The torch is called a Nortel Minor, and mounts to a table. I gather some people use oxygen concentrators they pick up for pretty cheap, medical leftovers, but that's the limit what I know about it. Her workbench is not steel, it's a desk table made of particle board with a formica top, I think.

I don't know how much of this overlaps with frame building but I've definitely seen people talk about using propane-O2 and I've definitely seen photos of brazing benches with the torch fixed rather than the other way round.

Any help?
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Old 04-01-22, 05:21 AM
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I use a Devilbiss 525 oxygen concentrator and a BBQ propane tank for my torch. It worked well for a number of years, but has gotten a bit unreliable lately. I suspect the years of working in a dirty workshop environment have not been kind to it. I don't use it very often, since I switched to TIG welding, so I haven't put any time into troubleshooting it.

The setup is pretty simple, as you only need a regulator designed for propane and a check valve on the propane side. The O2 concentrator doesn't need a regulator or check valve. I just run mine at the max output and regulate it at the torch. The O2 concentrator has a nipple on the outlet that you can remove and the torch hose screws right on to the fitting.
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Old 04-01-22, 07:29 AM
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A friend makes glass beads and I tried to talk her into switching to propane/oxygen. She had oxy/acetylene though. Other than the torch being mounted to her bench, her setup looked pretty typical of what you would see in a framebuilding shop. I watched a documentary on glass pipe makers and everyone in it used oxy/propane. Glassblowing can take more heat that framebuilding, but some of the people that work in smaller pieces have setups that would work for either. When I started looking into getting a concentrator, there was a place that sold refurb medical concentrators specifically to glassblowers.
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Old 04-01-22, 07:42 AM
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What dsaul said. I've used an oxygen concentrator for brazing for years and have written descriptions of how to set them up and use them on framebuilding forums (like Velocipede Salon). Basically I'm encouraging their use for convenience and safety. There isn't much to using them actually. Unlike dsaul I don't keep my output wide open but they are easy enough to adjust the flow. Probably his issues are related to needing to change his filter.

There are many examples of my framebuilding class students finding them cheap but there is a lot of luck to that. A sensible approach is to buy a refurbished one at M&M Medical Equipment Repair (814) 487-7216, Beaverdale, PA 15921. They charge either $350 or sometimes $300 + shipping. I recommend the Deviliss 525. They have a greater oxygen output then other 5lpm brands. And their outlet is a B size welding hose fitting so you can screw your hose directly to the concentrator.

I'm not in my shop where I can take a picture but here are some photos of my set up. One of my students made me this great cart I can keep my entire unit on. The picture was documenting repainting some Schwinn Super Sports but you can see my Devilbiss 515 on the cart and an Invacare Perfecto 2 just happen to be sitting on the left side of the picture. In the other picture is a 525.

A Devilbiss model 525

2 oxygen concentrators just happen to be in this picture of Schwinn Super Sports being repainted.
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Old 04-01-22, 11:08 AM
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Thanks so much, useful info so far.

Any thoughts on flooring? The room has engineered hardwood right now. Doubt it would catch fire but surely would melt and char if attacked. So it needs something covering it.

She got a little kiln for annealing her lamp work and doing fuse glass and pottery with the kids but it wouldn't fit a vase. Guessing about a foot by a foot square by half a foot high.

Proper glass blowing is likely in the future but is a whole different discussion. She's nerving up and saving up. It needs a focused shop and a lot of large tools, a furnace, a glory hole, a bigger annealer, and a special work bench. She picked up a broken down furnace for cheap (the crucible you melt the glass in to dip the blow pipe). Supposedly it only needs a new thermocouple, but it's mothballed for now. She says she can use it for a glory hole too, the thing you use to keep heating up the work. I think she's misunderstanding. It might convert from one to the other but I don't think you could do both in one setup.
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Old 04-01-22, 12:55 PM
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There are welding mats. They seem to be made of rubber.
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Old 04-01-22, 05:41 PM
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My shop in Raleigh NC had carpeting, only burned a few small holes in it during the 10 years I was there. Not something I would want to deal with again if possible.

The glassblowing thing is really interesting. Here in the Finger lakes of NYS we have one of the nation's better glass producing company, Corning Glass. As a school age kid we visited it a few times and I was always impressed how the glass would flow and stiffen during the process. I still sometimes think about this as I chase filler about a joint.

I don't think i would want my fuel tank to be so far away from the work station. Or if it has to be (to make other's feel safe) at least install a shut off valve at your work station. I have only had to close the fuel tank valve in a hurry once, in hindsight it wasn't really needed but in the moment I was sure glad I could reach that valve quickly. (and this is why one opens the fuel valve only enough to allow full flow and no more.) Andy
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Old 04-11-22, 02:53 PM
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just for fun some semi local references for glassblowing classes (I hang on C&V...by definition I am an enabler ) not sure what your wife's background skill is there

San jose https://www.bagi.org/
oakland https://www.thecrucible.org/departments/glass-blowing/
half moon bay https://www.hmbartglass.com/
sacramento Design with Fire
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Old 07-14-22, 07:01 PM
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My wife got her torch but hasn't gotten the concentrator yet. It's summer so it's really hot and extra money is going to daycare summer camp
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Old 07-15-22, 07:52 AM
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Someone recently was trying to sell some fixturing and was going to throw in a concentrator. I would have tried to talk them out of it if I was closer to New York
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Old 07-15-22, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty
My wife got her torch but hasn't gotten the concentrator yet. It's summer so it's really hot and extra money is going to daycare summer camp
I have a small O2 tank you could use in the mean time if you want to test a set up. I'm in the Downtown Sac area.
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Old 07-27-22, 01:58 PM
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For additional cheapness, some of these guys are tapped into their natural gas lines. If you can do it for a BBQ, why not this. That way you don't have any high pressure cylinders, or acetylene which is pretty crazy stuff, and not clear the benefit for brazing, or even light welding.

Got a fire hose handy, and a really beefy rolling art? Otherwise you could be dealing with while it was chained to your wall,and using a box of baking soda...


Here are 3 rules for acetylene use, And there are a lot more than three rules...

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Old 07-27-22, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MassiveD
Here are 3 rules for acetylene use, And there are a lot more than three rules...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEVBoc4tLoI
That vid is out of date; it gives the acetylene withdrawal rate as 1/7th of tank capacity per hour. But the welding powers-that-be have since decided that's too generous, and even at 1/7th you can get into trouble, so they lowered it to 1/10th.

I don't know how bad it is to withdraw at 1/7th, which used to be considered safe — for decades, I think. So maybe 1/10th is too conservative? All I know is, I have exceeded the max (don't know at what withdrawal rate) and gotten liquid acetone coming through the line. It can rapidly degrade the hose and regulator, causing a leak or explosion later. If you have had acetone come out the torch, best to replace the hose and overhaul the regulator with a new diaphragm ASAP.

So now when I have a big heating job that needs a quite large tip such as a rosebud, I use Propane/LP — with oxy of course. Unforunately propane needs considerably more O2 than acetylene, so the biggest flame is probably beyond what a 5 lpm concentrator can do. Doug Fattic reports running a rosebud on one, but in my experience the flame was not as big as what I can get on bottled O2. Maybe a 10 lpm concentraor would convince me to ditch my O2 bottles? Dunno, I keep looking for one cheap enough for me, but I'm really cheap. 5 lpm is enough for anything short of the biggest heating jobs though.

People reading this forum tend to be amateurs or small-scale pros who tend to have smaller acetylene bottles. If you absolutely need to run a big rosebud on O/A, without enormous Acetylene bottles, the only other solution is a manifold that pulls from several bottles at once. I don't know anyone that does that in the bike biz, though I hear it is done sometimes (or used to be done?) in industry.

Mark B
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Old 07-27-22, 06:05 PM
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I have torch tips that will draw acetylene faster than 1/7. I used to like using a larger tip for everything, now I swap around, and I don't use the tips that are too big for my tank. The size I can use with my tank is a bit limiting. I think the way you can tell you are drawing acetone is that it burns purple. I didn't find any confirming information during a short online search though.
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Old 07-27-22, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MassiveD
For additional cheapness, some of these guys are tapped into their natural gas lines. If you can do it for a BBQ, why not this. That way you don't have any high pressure cylinders, or acetylene which is pretty crazy stuff, and not clear the benefit for brazing, or even light welding.
Using natural gas would be great except it doesn't have enough pressure coming out of the wall. G-tec makes a unit to increase gas line pressure so it can be used for brazing. Unfortunately it costs $2000 so the only buyers are schools and such.

Mark did you see that Jihoon over on VS did a lot of work researching and rebuilding his oxygen concentrator? His description was directed to you.
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Old 12-03-22, 04:18 PM
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I went to buy for Christmas and learned some things.

Lampwork torches breathe hard. Boro glass is like this...

Critical temperatures for clear:
  • Working temperature: 2228 degrees F
  • Softening temperature: 1508 degrees F
  • Annealing temperature: 1050 degrees F
  • Strain temperature: 960 degrees F
So that's as hot as metal work, larger flame if you are doing a figurine...and it's an insulator. When the technique was invented in the 1300's they used foot powered bellows and an oil wick. Given the prices on these O2 things, maybe they still should. Some of the big torches can eat 70 lpm. In light of this the 5 lpm concentrators you initially recommended are nearly insufficient. They will run the very smallest popular torch for making beads. They are not going to do figurines or little blowing projects. As a hobbyist, the setup for getting the flow rate you want for any larger work is a bottle. If you do want to use a concentrator, to get out of the O2 cylinder filling business, you are likely going to hook it up to an O2 compressor and use it to fill up a bottle (both fortunately also available from the same sources).

I was briefly set back not being able to determine make or model of my wife's torch that she got secondhand. I finally found it - a Carlisle Wildcat.
​​​​​​​Fuel gas and oxygen consumption for the WildCat is extremely economical, with a standard usage of approximately 3 LPM (Liters Per Minute) of propane and only 15 LPM of oxygen.
See?

The guy she got it from was a real character and he handed over a few other crates of stuff, eager to share.

There are also industrial concentrators that are quite sufficient thank you. The entire attraction of using the medical castoffs is the low price. I'm finding that buyers do sometimes find them for free, but most sellers trying to get rid of one know it's valuable. Buying a 5 lpm from a reputable business that will give you a year warranty costs usually like $400 minimum (as Doug said early on). There are some places just wiping down old ones and putting them back on the street with no warranty for about half that.
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Old 12-20-22, 11:29 AM
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Just spoke to Harris Industrial Gases in the nearby suburb of Roseville. They will sell a 50cf or 80 cf cylinder or rent a 150cf. Renting would be in the range of 40 cents a day with a deposit. They say they are trying to get away from renting smaller cylinders. The price was $229-259 to buy the smaller sizes and $25 ish for a fill.

1 cf = 28 L (which is not far from the 27 I guessed, a foot being ~30 cm). So 80 cf ==> 2.5 hours of burn time with the aforementioned glass torch or 7.5 hours at the same flow rate as the concentrator
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Old 12-20-22, 01:22 PM
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As much as I would like a bigger set of tanks, I'm pretty happy with the ones I bought. They are whatever the largest size that the LWS sells. It's interesting that glasswork takes bigger torches, but I suppose it's not that surprising.
Although the glassworker I know has a torch that isn't much different than a j28 other than the fact it's attached to her bench.
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Old 12-24-22, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
Although the glassworker I know has a torch that isn't much different than a j28 other than the fact it's attached to her bench.
The torch itself does seem to be one available avenue for gear nerds to nerd out. I think my wife is more frustrated with the range of unneeded choices and just wants to make her figurines
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