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More important upgrade: mechanical -> Hydro brakes or non tubeless -> tubeless wheels

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More important upgrade: mechanical -> Hydro brakes or non tubeless -> tubeless wheels

Old 06-18-22, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Depending on this timeframe to save and buy a new bike, the argument could swing to go get a decent set of TLR wheels, because at least that will transfer over to the new bike -- which unless you're springing for something over ~$4k, you'll likely end up with pretty heavy and average wheels.
I hesitate to do that with wheels unless I think I might upgrade the fame/for relatively soon, because standards change. I’ve got a few decent mtb wheelsets that are are of limited or no use on my newer frames. Road has not been as all over the place as MTB, but you never know what’s coming down the line.
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Old 06-18-22, 11:51 AM
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A nice set of brand-name, affordable, hydraulic disk brakes (preferably pre-assembled and pre-bled - unless, of course, you had been stricken with the divine curse that is internal cable/line routing) can go a far, far longer way to make you and others safe than a pair of tubeless tires. Just a thought.
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Old 06-18-22, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Cnguyen323
I like the sound of this. I’m all about convenience so you make some very convincing points. I have noticed that that with some quality wheels, my tubes hold up to pretty much everything I put them through.

I like the idea of tubeless and the weight savings, but you’ve given me a new appreciation for my tubes!
You do realize that the author of that original statement is not talking about tubeless, he is talking about tubular tires, sew-ups. These are nothing alike.
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Old 06-18-22, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclist2000
You do realize that the author of that original statement is not talking about tubeless, he is talking about tubular tires, sew-ups. These are nothing alike.
had no clue. Just watched a video on it. Thanks for noting that.
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Old 06-18-22, 09:52 PM
  #55  
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[QUOTE=Cnguyen323;22538311]I
I understand the safety and importance that comes with significant stopping power. Should I prioritize upgrading the brakes before the wheelset? I’m considering something from the juin tech lineup for brakes.

Does anyone know the performance difference between hybrid flat mount hydraulic brakes and a fully hydraulic brake setup like something from sram/shimano?

.[/QUOTE

First of all get the marketing forces that have brainwashed you out of head!

There is not any significant difference in stopping power from the old rim brakes to disk brakes, unless you're riding in the rain or through mud. That's because what causes anything with wheels to stop is the tires adhesion to the road. I'm not talking about Walmart bikes, but bikes over $500.

A friend of mine who had a newish Trek with hydro brakes was arguing with me about how superior his brakes were over mine, and he owned a bike with rim brakes, yet he insisted there was a difference. So I challenged him to braking duel. His bike had Conti 4000's 25c tires, and mine had Vittoria Rubino 25c on the rear and 23c on the front; we both had aluminum rims; we weighed ourselves while holding the bike we would be riding and found out we were 5 pounds within each other; we used a tire pressure calculator to determine how much pressure to use; a rule that I made after seeing a video about the stopping difference made the disk win by about 3 to 4 feet, but the winner would slide his butt off the seat over the rear wheel, the rim brake guy stayed in his seat; both were using CF wheels which the felt braking pads used on the rim brake bike have always been poor at stopping, so I made a rule that we stayed glued to our seat. So, the test consisted of 3 runs at 15, then 3 at 20, then 3 at 25; we would alternate between us the task of saying stop so one of us wouldn't jump the gun.

What happened you scream? We both stopped within a foot of each other, sometimes I stopped a tad sooner and sometimes he did...until we got to the last test at 25. The first run I stopped about a foot sooner, the second time I stopped about 2 feet sooner, and last attempt I stopped 3 feet sooner. Why was that? my friend touched his front rotor and got a nicely singed finger, then he touched my front rim, while my rim was hot he did not singe his finger. He couldn't believe what the tests showed, he figured out though that the reason he thought he had more power in the brakes was due to the way hydro brakes feel when you apply the brake levers. This was all about the tires adhesion to the road, and then brake fade, type of pads being used like felt pads on CF wheels, and weight, had that been a difference played into the tests.

That answers your question about the two different kinds of brakes you were looking at as well, and the brand of brakes don't matter either.
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Old 06-19-22, 06:01 AM
  #56  
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[QUOTE=rekmeyata;22546540]
Originally Posted by Cnguyen323
I
I understand the safety and importance that comes with significant stopping power. Should I prioritize upgrading the brakes before the wheelset? I’m considering something from the juin tech lineup for brakes.

Does anyone know the performance difference between hybrid flat mount hydraulic brakes and a fully hydraulic brake setup like something from sram/shimano?

.[/QUOTE

First of all get the marketing forces that have brainwashed you out of head!

There is not any significant difference in stopping power from the old rim brakes to disk brakes, unless you're riding in the rain or through mud. That's because what causes anything with wheels to stop is the tires adhesion to the road. I'm not talking about Walmart bikes, but bikes over $500.

A friend of mine who had a newish Trek with hydro brakes was arguing with me about how superior his brakes were over mine, and he owned a bike with rim brakes, yet he insisted there was a difference. So I challenged him to braking duel. His bike had Conti 4000's 25c tires, and mine had Vittoria Rubino 25c on the rear and 23c on the front; we both had aluminum rims; we weighed ourselves while holding the bike we would be riding and found out we were 5 pounds within each other; we used a tire pressure calculator to determine how much pressure to use; a rule that I made after seeing a video about the stopping difference made the disk win by about 3 to 4 feet, but the winner would slide his butt off the seat over the rear wheel, the rim brake guy stayed in his seat; both were using CF wheels which the felt braking pads used on the rim brake bike have always been poor at stopping, so I made a rule that we stayed glued to our seat. So, the test consisted of 3 runs at 15, then 3 at 20, then 3 at 25; we would alternate between us the task of saying stop so one of us wouldn't jump the gun.

What happened you scream? We both stopped within a foot of each other, sometimes I stopped a tad sooner and sometimes he did...until we got to the last test at 25. The first run I stopped about a foot sooner, the second time I stopped about 2 feet sooner, and last attempt I stopped 3 feet sooner. Why was that? my friend touched his front rotor and got a nicely singed finger, then he touched my front rim, while my rim was hot he did not singe his finger. He couldn't believe what the tests showed, he figured out though that the reason he thought he had more power in the brakes was due to the way hydro brakes feel when you apply the brake levers. This was all about the tires adhesion to the road, and then brake fade, type of pads being used like felt pads on CF wheels, and weight, had that been a difference played into the tests.

That answers your question about the two different kinds of brakes you were looking at as well, and the brand of brakes don't matter either.
Two thing:

1- OP was not asking about rim vs disc. He was asking about mech disc vs hydro disc.

2- Your test is flawed. By keeping your butts in the saddle, all you are doing is seeing which bike is less endo-prone when employing bad braking technique. Any good brake (disc or rim) would put you over the handlebars before they reach max braking potential if you don’t get behind the saddle.

Fwiw, I don’t think there is much stopping power difference in good conditions between very good rim brakes and average hydros, and good rim brakes have plenty of stopping power.

Last edited by Kapusta; 06-19-22 at 06:05 AM.
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Old 06-19-22, 02:36 PM
  #57  
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[QUOTE=rekmeyata;22546540]
Originally Posted by Cnguyen323
I
I understand the safety and importance that comes with significant stopping power. Should I prioritize upgrading the brakes before the wheelset? I’m considering something from the juin tech lineup for brakes.

Does anyone know the performance difference between hybrid flat mount hydraulic brakes and a fully hydraulic brake setup like something from sram/shimano?

.[/QUOTE

First of all get the marketing forces that have brainwashed you out of head!

There is not any significant difference in stopping power from the old rim brakes to disk brakes, unless you're riding in the rain or through mud. That's because what causes anything with wheels to stop is the tires adhesion to the road. I'm not talking about Walmart bikes, but bikes over $500.

A friend of mine who had a newish Trek with hydro brakes was arguing with me about how superior his brakes were over mine, and he owned a bike with rim brakes, yet he insisted there was a difference. So I challenged him to braking duel. His bike had Conti 4000's 25c tires, and mine had Vittoria Rubino 25c on the rear and 23c on the front; we both had aluminum rims; we weighed ourselves while holding the bike we would be riding and found out we were 5 pounds within each other; we used a tire pressure calculator to determine how much pressure to use; a rule that I made after seeing a video about the stopping difference made the disk win by about 3 to 4 feet, but the winner would slide his butt off the seat over the rear wheel, the rim brake guy stayed in his seat; both were using CF wheels which the felt braking pads used on the rim brake bike have always been poor at stopping, so I made a rule that we stayed glued to our seat. So, the test consisted of 3 runs at 15, then 3 at 20, then 3 at 25; we would alternate between us the task of saying stop so one of us wouldn't jump the gun.

What happened you scream? We both stopped within a foot of each other, sometimes I stopped a tad sooner and sometimes he did...until we got to the last test at 25. The first run I stopped about a foot sooner, the second time I stopped about 2 feet sooner, and last attempt I stopped 3 feet sooner. Why was that? my friend touched his front rotor and got a nicely singed finger, then he touched my front rim, while my rim was hot he did not singe his finger. He couldn't believe what the tests showed, he figured out though that the reason he thought he had more power in the brakes was due to the way hydro brakes feel when you apply the brake levers. This was all about the tires adhesion to the road, and then brake fade, type of pads being used like felt pads on CF wheels, and weight, had that been a difference played into the tests.

That answers your question about the two different kinds of brakes you were looking at as well, and the brand of brakes don't matter either.
People don't agree with me? Oh that makes sense they are all brainwashed out of their head! I hope your friend learned a few things from this test, first being don't touch your brake rotors after a braking test, but that may explain the susceptibility to the brainwashing.
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Old 06-19-22, 03:24 PM
  #58  
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[QUOTE=Kapusta;22546673]
Originally Posted by rekmeyata

Two thing:

1- OP was not asking about rim vs disc. He was asking about mech disc vs hydro disc.

2- Your test is flawed. By keeping your butts in the saddle, all you are doing is seeing which bike is less endo-prone when employing bad braking technique. Any good brake (disc or rim) would put you over the handlebars before they reach max braking potential if you don’t get behind the saddle.

Fwiw, I don’t think there is much stopping power difference in good conditions between very good rim brakes and average hydros, and good rim brakes have plenty of stopping power.
I am not a professional scientific professor, or guru, that we took out all the variables, and looked at every angle scientifically. I did what I knew, the reason I wanted to stay seated is because MOST people in a panic situation are not going to remember to slide off the seat, all they're going to be doing is stopping as fast as possible, and that's why I chose staying in our seats. The other reason for staying seated was a video I saw done by 2 former pro riders in England, and the one guy on disks slid his butt off the seat the other guy stayed in his seat, that contest made it appear that the disk brakes were far better than rim, but those guys are controlled by marketing forces, and or manufactures who sponsor their program, so they had to make the disk brakes look good. The guy that stayed on his seat did not go over the bars, why would they if you control the braking power to prevent that.

BUT, since you brought up the seat thing the next time I go riding with this guy we'll repeat the test and this time we will slide off the seat as you said to do.

It still won't be a perfect test, we have no way to do that, we don't have a controlled environment, there could be a difference in road conditions on one side, all sorts of variables that could throw off the test, I knew that going into it, but we can only work with what we had. I don't what tires he has now, but I'm now running Specialized Roubaix Pro 23/25 on the front and 25/28 on the rear, so I'm going to have to make sure his tires are close to mine, I think he stayed with the 25c size on his new tires, so I don't know with my wider tire on the rear will help me to stop faster with my rear off the seat and over the rear tire as far as I can go or not.

Regardless of whatever the test shows, it's going to boil down to tire adhesion to the pavement. Just thought of something while typing this, it could also boil down to who is the least scared to push the brakes to the limits of the edge of going over the bar, I have no to way to take that equation out of the picture either.
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Old 06-19-22, 04:43 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
BUT, since you brought up the seat thing the next time I go riding with this guy we'll repeat the test and this time we will slide off the seat as you said to do.

It still won't be a perfect test, we have no way to do that, we don't have a controlled environment, there could be a difference in road conditions on one side, all sorts of variables that could throw off the test, I knew that going into it, but we can only work with what we had. .
Maybe one quick suggestion on your testing. Both of you also swap bikes to eliminate the variable of different degrees of fear or risk tolerance?

Last edited by Sy Reene; 06-20-22 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 06-19-22, 05:00 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
Regardless of whatever the test shows, it's going to boil down to tire adhesion to the pavement. Just thought of something while typing this, it could also boil down to who is the least scared to push the brakes to the limits of the edge of going over the bar, I have no to way to take that equation out of the picture either.
The best case scenario for brakes is not as important as the worst case scenario, and you're testing the best case: dry road with aluminum wheels. Test the braking in the rain, or with carbon wheels, or both, and see how the performance compares.
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Old 06-19-22, 05:20 PM
  #61  
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[QUOTE=Sy Reene;22547283]
Originally Posted by rekmeyata
Maybe one quick suggestion on your testing. Both of you also swap bikes to eliminate the variable of different degrees of fear or risk tolerance?
also with testing like this braking technique improves with each round.
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Old 06-19-22, 06:26 PM
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[QUOTE=Sy Reene;22547283]
Originally Posted by rekmeyata
Maybe one quick suggestion on your testing. Both of you also swap bikes to eliminate the variable of different degrees of fear or risk tolerance?
That's a good suggestion as well. thanks. The test will be longer though, it will have to be those sets of stopping times 2, which means we will have to wait till his rotors cool.
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Old 06-19-22, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
Maybe one quick suggestion on your testing. Both of you also swap bikes to eliminate the variable of different degrees of fear or risk tolerance?
Somehow you quoted me saying something that someone else wrote. Go back and look at the quote tags.
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Old 06-19-22, 09:34 PM
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That's weird, some sort of computer glitch on their end because what I'm seeing is that I quoted on Sy's post, but somehow it quoted you, my post to Sy still says I posted to Sy. Don't worry about it, Sy will get notice of anyways.
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Old 06-20-22, 05:39 AM
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Sorry..not sure how I managed that. Fixed I think
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Old 06-20-22, 07:03 AM
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I think that brake upgrade is out of the question until you are able to get your stock ones to demonstrate their full capabilities. That would at least include a decontamination of the stock pads and rotors, followed by some gentle bedding. You can also upgrade to higher performance pads. I am more than confident that clean, good quality pads and rotors would give you very sufficient stopping power on any set of brakes.

When it comes to tubeless, totally not worth it unless your wheels and tires are already tubeless ready. Minus the obvious puncture protection capabilities, I find that the bike rides smoother which gives me more confident during hard cornering over rough terrain, or while putting power down to the rear wheel. during normal riding, I would not bother switching to tubeless (unless you just want puncture protection and some peace of mind..)
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Old 06-20-22, 07:05 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Cnguyen323
I am running about 40-45 PSI so I think I may attempt the ghetto tubeless. I’m pretty novice in the both cycling and mechanic aspects. I ride mostly flat predictable terrain, though I have some interest in taking my gravel bike on some tame flowy trails. I assume hybrid calipers from juin tech would be enough for that sort of thing.

I try to avoid traffic as much as possible. There are some high speed feeders and main suburban roads that I have to cross to get to my typical trails.
I don't know why mechanical brakes wouldn't be just fine and need less maintenance when used on mostly flat terrain and tame flowy trails. I don't see any reason to upgrade until you are riding at a level where you can tell that you need stronger brakes or tubeless tires. Don't fall for the marketing hype designed to make you spend more and more. It's not that the highest end equipment isn't better, it's just that 90% of us don't ride at a level where it will make any difference.
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Old 06-20-22, 07:40 AM
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I agree with that save that money.
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Old 06-20-22, 10:34 AM
  #69  
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YOU CAN'T GET STRONGER BRAKES! My god. Mechanical disk will stop a bike just as fast as hydraulic, because tire adhesion to the road surface is the most important aspects as to how fast you will stop. So, there is no reason in regards to stopping performance to upgrade from mechanical to hydraulics; now if you prefer to have a slightly smoother slightly less force to the feel to brakes, well then fine hydraulics win, but you won't win in its stopping performance. Hydraulics are also subject to fading more than mechanical brakes, and that's probably what happened in my test with my friend, I thought it was due to the rotor being hotter than the rim got, but after watching the video below they alluded to the hydraulics fade the more you use them, whereas the mechanical disk brakes don't have that issue, and neither do rim brakes in my test.

Mechanical vs Hydraulic Disc Brake Stopping Power Test - Bing video
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Old 06-20-22, 04:48 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
YOU CAN'T GET STRONGER BRAKES! My god. Mechanical disk will stop a bike just as fast as hydraulic, because tire adhesion to the road surface is the most important aspects as to how fast you will stop. So, there is no reason in regards to stopping performance to upgrade from mechanical to hydraulics; now if you prefer to have a slightly smoother slightly less force to the feel to brakes, well then fine hydraulics win, but you won't win in its stopping performance. Hydraulics are also subject to fading more than mechanical brakes, and that's probably what happened in my test with my friend, I thought it was due to the rotor being hotter than the rim got, but after watching the video below they alluded to the hydraulics fade the more you use them, whereas the mechanical disk brakes don't have that issue, and neither do rim brakes in my test.

Mechanical vs Hydraulic Disc Brake Stopping Power Test - Bing video
bruh who are you yelling at? Lol.

Makes sense though. I’ve never tried the modulation that comes with hydraulic so I have no frame of reference really.

Last edited by Cnguyen323; 06-21-22 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 06-20-22, 05:01 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Cnguyen323
bruh who are you yelling at? Lol
Radar shows clear skies over Indiana, so ...
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Old 06-20-22, 08:08 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata
YOU CAN'T GET STRONGER BRAKES! My god. Mechanical disk will stop a bike just as fast as hydraulic,
Had no reason to view any moron video.... how about comparative HAND strength GooooobER??? Does NOT the ability to tension said brake factor into stop distance?

Or,,, was the HANDLE Gomer... or Forrest G.

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Old 06-21-22, 10:18 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Cnguyen323
bruh who are you yelling at? Lol.

Makes sense though. I’ve never tried the modulation that comes with hydraulic so I have no frame of reference really.
Myself!
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Old 06-22-22, 07:47 AM
  #74  
Kapusta
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Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but one inexpensive upgrade would be compressionless brake cable housing if your bike does not already use that.

it may mean re-taping your bars, so it may or may not be worth the hassle right now.
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Old 06-22-22, 01:34 PM
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Cnguyen323
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but one inexpensive upgrade would be compressionless brake cable housing if your bike does not already use that.

it may mean re-taping your bars, so it may or may not be worth the hassle right now.
I’m a new rider so I did have my lbs take care of that. They ended up charging $70 including adjusting the brakes and truing my rotors. It’s something I hope to learn to do myself in the future. How often does cable housing need to be changed?
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