gigadeath

Title is pretty self explanatory... I can't decide between Nelson and Camper (both longflap).

2-3 nights out on average. I carry only 1 set of spare clothes (I wash them rather). But I like to bring dedicated shoes for the evenings.

I think the Nelson would stay more cleanly put onto the Bagman (hate when bags dance left and right), but maybe I need those 4-5 additional liters...

What's your advice?

staehpj1

My advice is to gather your gear and test pack it. Use a cardboard mock up if necessary.

FWIW, I personally don't find trip length has much if any effect on what/how much I pack. I take the same stuff for coast to coast or a short trip. Expected weather would impact the load so to that extent length of trip has some effect if it spans climates or seasons, but when that happens I mail stuff home or have stuff mailed to me. So I only carry for one tie of year or one climate at a time. Also my gear is pretty versatile so it changes less than you might imagine. By packing a bit tighter or less tight for each trip you may be able to find a setup that will serve a very wide range of trips and conditions.

Tourist in MSN

Agree with Staehpj1, put your stuff in a box. Measure the length, width and height of the part of the box that you filled to calculate cubic inches. Ask google to convert your cubic inches to liters.

I have a Nelson Longflap. If you do not use the additional flap length, I think it is rated for 15 liters. I would plan on ONLY using the extra volume for the long flap as contingency if absolutely needed.

You can add extra straps to the top of the Nelson Longflap, in my photos I have a pair of toe clip straps. On rare occasion, I strapped on some bit of clothing on top, but the toe clip straps I used were not long enough to hold much.

I did not use a Bagman, instead my Nelson Longflap just sat on top of my rear panniers.

Photo below is when I had it as full as I possibly could get it after buying groceries.




My Carradice bag was almost exclusively used for food (or wine), rest of my gear was in my panniers. So, my Carradice at times was almost empty, but when I took the above photo, that was as full as it got.

My touring partner, I am not sure what he was thinking but he only had room in his panniers for a couple cans of chili or somehting like that, so I had to carry almost all the food for two on that trip. (That was his last trip with only two panniers.)

Another photo, it was lunch time so we stopped to make some lunch in the photo below.



Better photo of the bag closed when it was not overstuffed. My toe clip straps on top are easily seen.



The bag can sag badly. Initially I tried a big piece of cardboard to act as a stiffener. Did that a couple years and then decided to make a stiffener that is more permanent, used Coroplast. The photo below is a different smaller Carradice bag, my coroplast stiffener (white) is in it. Creased several parallel folds to make it into a U shape, it is not attached to the bag, just loose in the bag for shape. If you try that, start with cardboard, then if that worked, you can look for a piece of coroplast.



I am thinking about getting a Camper. The best price I saw is in the UK at Spa. I am waiting for them to send me a shipping estimate by e-mail. They sell such a small amount of stuff to USA that they do not have a computerized shipping cost in their ordering system.
https://www.spacycles.co.uk

greatbasin

Two or three nights is my kind of touring, camping every night or staying one night out of three in a hotel or hostel. I'm using a Low Saddle Longflap. As it is, the bottom is supported by the top of my rear rack and no bagman is needed nor would it fit. Carradice describes the Low Saddle as a smaller cousin to the Camper for bicycles where there isn't that much room below the seat. They specify it at 15L, the same as the Nelson, though their given dimensions show the Low Saddle is an inch shallower.

Besides the saddlebag, I have some small roll-up panniers (15L X 2). My clothes go in a 14L compression sack that goes in the Carradice. Everything else goes in the panniers. Without panniers also, 15L, even expanded to 18L would be too little unless I was credit-card touring at hotels or van-supported or something. The Camper model alone might hold everything, but it would not fit my bike well, and it could be difficult to organize gear for easy accessibility with everything in one bag.

So if you're not camping, the Camper is probably the better choice if you'll have no other capacity. You would be able to fit the clothes and shoes without popping the bag out beyond its minimum capacity. The only way I can see the Nelson working without being popped-out is if your clothes are all Lycra, poly and nylon, your shoes are minimalist, and you're not taking any tools, spare tubes, snacks, camera, rain gear, toiletries, or first aid kit.

I second the advice to get the clothes and gear out and pack it all into a bag or however many sacks to be measured. I used stuff sacks and compression sacks which I could both measure and read the labeled volume thereof.

Tourist in MSN

I mentioned above that I have the Nelson Longflap and am considering buying the Camper too. You just described why I would get the Camper when i already have the Nelson Longflap.

All my touring has been camping, but I would like the option to do credit card touring on my road bike or rando bike. Those bikes could take a small rack and light weight panniers, but I think the handling would be better with a saddlebag instead.

I once bought some heavy stuff at a farm supply store, rode home with that in my Nelson Longflap bag. If I had that much weight on a rack on my road bike or rando bike, I think the frame flex would be noticeable, but the weight in the Carridice bag did not impair handling at all. That short shopping trip convinced me that there is real value to these older type saddle bags.

staehpj1

Interesting. Do you credit the to the location of the load, the fact that it can sway just a bit, or something else?

I often wondered how I'd pack for a credit card tour. There would be a certain appeal to using only a smallish saddle bag or handlebar bag with pretty much what would be carried for a day ride, which is almost nothing. On the other hand there is the notion of carrying more stuff for off bike activites and off bike clothing. In that case I could possibly see myself carrying more than I carry to camp and cook, but probably not it just is kind of against my nature. I've always tended to pack really minimal even as a kid, so this UL stuff came pretty natural to me. I do get why folks carry a bit more off bike clothing and so on on a credit card tour though.

I remember the first time I read the term credit card tour. It was described as taking off with not much more than your bike, a handlebar bag with a few items, and a credit card. That was WAY back, long before I ever toured, but I still remenber being very enthralled by the notion.

Tourist in MSN

I think location was secondary, but a rack with weight on it will cause some frame flex in the rear triangle, further that the center of gravity of that load is above the seat stays, the greater the flex. But a saddle bag on the saddle has the weight in the same place as my own weight. There is no logical way to create frame flex that differs from normal riding.

Think of it this way, if you grab your saddle (one of your body contact points when riding) with one hand, and stem (an in between point between your hand contact points when riding) with the other hand, and robustly shake the bike side to side, if you have a load on a rear rack, you may feel some frame flex and the higher or further back that load is, the greater the frame flex. But if you do that with a saddle bag where the center of gravity of the weight in the bag is close to the saddle, no additional frame flex.

I would see credit card touring as the same as a normal bike tour, but no tent, sleeping bag, cooking gear, etc. In other words, everything except the camping gear. When I tour, I bring rain gear, two sets of bike clothes, two sets of street or civilian clothes, hiking shoes or trail runners, four sets of socks and undies, small first aid kit, etc. I am thinking handlebar bag and a big Carradice bag might work for me for credit card tour. I am 100 percent certain that I would carry more than you. On a credit cart tour, I might carry more than you carry when you camp.

I usually tour in cooler climates, thus always bring a down vest and stocking cap, will have long cycling pants, etc. Some of my tours I bring long sleeve jerseys only because I do not plan to be anywhere that it gets warm enough to wear short sleeve ones. But, credit card touring, I could see spending time in warmer climates.

For randonneuring, I use a small handlebar bag and a smaller Carradice bag (Pendle) that is rated at 11 liters. That is just to carry my rain gear, food, extra liter or two of water, and as it warms up during the day I shove layers into the bag. And my bag was full on my last brevet in late morning after I shed my polartec vest, wind breaker, long pants that were over the shorts, etc. I forgot to bring my spare tire but fortunately did not need it, that would have taken a bit more room.

I initially just strapped my smaller Carradice bag on the saddle the way you always see in photos. I took this photo just before I started a 200k brevet three years ago, this is my Pendle bag (11 liters). My saddle lacks saddle loops, I use the springs as loops.



But part way through that day I got a little tired of my legs hitting the bag as I pedaled. It was not problematic, just a bit of a nuisance. So, decided during that ride that later I would come up with a way to move my bag back further.

I readily admit that I could have just bought the rack hanging hardware from Carradice, but chose to do something else.

At one point I saw a photo of someone that was using a stem on a seatpost as a way to hold a Carradice. So, I decided to try a modification of that, got a shim to fit between a long stem and the seatpost. Cut a one inch dowel that I sprayed black to put in the other end of the stem, that holds my Carradice bag further back. Photo below on a different bike.



My road bike lacks saddle loops and springs, I used a long stem on that one too. But this time the bag hangs from that, and I bent a 5/16 diameter aluminum rod as a support under the bag to make sure it stays off of the tire.




That support is enough for my 11 liter Pendle bag, but I am sure that I would need something more robust under the bag if I had a Camper to keep the bag off my tire. But I have some ideas on what I would do with some aluminum bar stock for that instead of an aluminum rod.

I think you have commented that you do not mind wearing a small backpack. I really do not like that idea. I used that Pendle bag when I rode White Rim in Canyonlands. Ten of us from my community went down there for a van supported ride, we only needed to bring spare clothes, water and lunch on our daily rides, the van hauled our camping gear for each night. Everyone else in the group wore a backpack on their mountain bikes. Those that did not own full suspension mountain bikes rented them. I wanted to see how my Rohloff expedition bike could handle that trail, so instead of renting I bought a suspension fork and fitted that to the bike. Pendle bag instead of a backpack, below, the trail was so rough that it almost destroyed my handlebar bag.



I just realized that I have shown photos of four bikes, all with the same Carradice bag. I guess I like that bag a lot.

staehpj1

Thanks for the clarification on the flex.

I could see doing as you say and doing pretty much the same tour as usual, just no camping. I could also see tours centered around more in town activities than my tours do. I could see visiting more and bigger towns. Perhaps some folks tours are already like that even though they are camping. I don't know that I'll ever do that style tour, but I imagine that if I do it likely would involve carrying more than I have sometimes camping and cooking. A couple sets of "real" civilian clothes and a pair of regular shoes might do that.

I think maybe rather than do the heavier version of cc tour and in town stuff with more civilian clothes, I'd see if my wife wanted to drive shuttle and include her, choosing a route she would enjoy driving. It might wind up being a car trip with some day riding though.