How you ride a bike
#51
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My original post was that for any two-wheel, single-track vehicle, two things have to happen to enter and negotiate a turn: You have to change the angle of the front wheel relative to the back wheel and move the CG of the bike/rider system far enough to the inside to prevent the bike from falling to the outside of the turn. Both of these things have to be done.
Once you're in the turn, you have to find that balance between keeping your CG far enough to the inside to not to 'stand up' and go over on the outside, or not so far as to slide out your tires, or following your front wheel into the ground. On a bicycle, you are able to shift your own weight enough to maintain this balance without any significant input on the bars. Get good enough at managing this and you can ride with no hands.
On a moto, the weight of the bike is more significant, as well as the effect of the rear wheel pushing against the turned front wheel. Finding the 'traction budget' for a motocycle executing a turn is 3-D calculus-based physics, but the breakdown is that rider weight shift alone isn't enough to make all those little corrections, and you have to apply deliberate input to the handlebars to make that happen.
#52
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Nope. He's doing it with his hips, more or less.
The biggest difference between moto and velo, as I've said, is that center of mass, and the rider's proportion of that mass is very different. On velo, the riders' mass is several times that of the bike, and you're able to affect more control over the bike using weight shifts and counter-shifts to control both the lean of the bike, and the CG of the whole system (bike+rider) without a whole lot of extra movement.
I'm not saying everybody can ride any bicycle with no hands, but it's not an uncommon thing.
It is really, really difficult to make a 500# moto change direction quickly and predictably without input to the bars. It's too heavy, and the CG is too low for just the rider shifting their weight to have the effect it does on a bicycle.
The biggest difference between moto and velo, as I've said, is that center of mass, and the rider's proportion of that mass is very different. On velo, the riders' mass is several times that of the bike, and you're able to affect more control over the bike using weight shifts and counter-shifts to control both the lean of the bike, and the CG of the whole system (bike+rider) without a whole lot of extra movement.
I'm not saying everybody can ride any bicycle with no hands, but it's not an uncommon thing.
It is really, really difficult to make a 500# moto change direction quickly and predictably without input to the bars. It's too heavy, and the CG is too low for just the rider shifting their weight to have the effect it does on a bicycle.
I have no idea why you brought up moto in the first place. He's not putting inputs into the handlebars with his hips. We know there's got to be a countershift of the center of gravity on the velo, my point originally was that we can't tell from the video whether the twitch of the handlebars is initiating that shift or simply the bike "tilting" away from the centered handlebars while the countershift is done with the body.
My suspicion is we way underestimate the role of shifting our shoulders in a turn, btw.
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#54
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I used to do it quite a bit as a kid. I bought a new Trek a few years ago and could not ride it without hands. I assumed it was the bikes geometry but I now have to bikes that are the same frames as what I had in high school. I think I could ride them without hands, but I don't feel comfortable. I think at 57 I have lost the confidence that lets me ride without hands so I think that is a sign to me to not try it any longer.
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WHat changes is how you can get there;. On a bicycle, as livedarklions alluded to, the rider's weight shifts and counter-shifts, due to the geometry and weight distribution, can move the head tube of the bicycle sufficiently to pull the fork out of line (and move it back) to negotiate the turn.
With a moto, the weight, and it's distribution mean that just shifting your weight around in the saddle isn't enough to make the front wheel turn on it's own, you have to move the bars, too.
The thing with dirt bikes, is that you can make it turn (on dirt) by leaning the bike over, and the using the throttle to make the rear wheel break traction and slide to the outside to "oversteer" around the corner. You can't do it on a bicycle, because you don't make enough power, and on a street motorcycle, it means you've exceeded the traction available for otherwise keeping the bike upright
Last edited by Ironfish653; 12-04-21 at 08:31 PM.
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The thing with dirt bikes, is that you can make it turn (on dirt) by leaning the bike over, and the using the throttle to make the rear wheel break traction and slide to the outside to "oversteer" around the corner. You can't do it on a bicycle, because you don't make enough power, and on a street motorcycle, it means you've exceeded the traction available for otherwise keeping the bike upright
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#58
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What changes is the control inputs required to make the wheels do what they need to to change from going straight, to making a turn.
On a bicycle, you can, while riding no-hands, you can, using shift of rider's 'weight' move the frame of the bike enough to make the fork rotate, changing the angle of the front wheel, as necessary to 'steer' and bring it back to stable.
Just because you're not touching the handlebar doesn't mean it isn't moving.
The reason I brought up motorcycles, all those posts ago, is that the wheels have to do the same things, describe the same paths, to negotiate a corner; but because of the increased weight, you have to use the bars to affect those changes to the front wheel. And because you have to put that distinct effort into the controls, it's much easier to observe what the front wheel is doing.
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#60
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It's truly amazing what some people can do on a bike or motorcycle. However, it may be a slightly different story for the average bloke. I am not a good bicyclist and I struggle at times with control. However, I am a pretty good motorcyclist, and I have been riding Harleys for 20 years. I rode trail bikes as a teenage but didn't ride for a long time after that, so when I decided I wanted to get a Harley at 40 plus years old, I took a motorcycle safety course and it has saved my live on several occasions. Counterstearing and knowing you are doing it on purpose, not just some subconscious movement can save your life on a motorcycle. Over the years, I have had a lot of friends, etc. that have been killed on motorcycles for various reasons, and in some incidents, I can't help but wonder if they really understood countersteering.
It's works on a bicycle too, but I guess I rode a bicycle all the time as a kid and never even heard of countersteering.
It's works on a bicycle too, but I guess I rode a bicycle all the time as a kid and never even heard of countersteering.
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On a bicycle, you can, while riding no-hands, you can, using shift of rider's 'weight' move the frame of the bike enough to make the fork rotate, changing the angle of the front wheel, as necessary to 'steer' and bring it back to stable.
Just because you're not touching the handlebar doesn't mean it isn't moving.
.
Just because you're not touching the handlebar doesn't mean it isn't moving.
.
You said the input had to be through the handlebar. Shifting your weight on the bike is not providing an input into the handlebar when you're not touching the handlebar no matter how hard you try to contort your words. Just admit you got it a bit wrong and move on.
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This is a good video that show that we do counter steer to initiate a turn (from the Cycle Oregon Newsletter):
Most People Don't Know How Bikes Work
Most People Don't Know How Bikes Work
Here’s a link to an interesting discussion of this subject:
https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/1243011-how-you-ride-bike.html
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Heres a link to an interesting discussion of this subject:
https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/1243011-how-you-ride-bike.html