Darth Lefty 

If you are buying by the groupset, you get everything that levels up with each level, whether you want/need it or not. But that might not be the best thing. You can study and find out that some things are good, some are not. There's the business about Shimano hollow arm cranksets (Ultegra and DA) cracking apart. That's bad. Solved? Won't know til they are old enough. Shimano won't sell you a carbon crank yet, but carbon fiber is sneaking in other places. There's the stuff about Shimano hollow pin chains being amazing... if you do enough miles and take care of them fussy enough. That's good. Jan Heine, the last person you would expect, seems to be over the moon for eTap / AXS shifting. SRAM one piece cassettes are really cool, they are all hardened steel and really light and Shimano has to use titanium cogs to match them. Direct mount chain rings or spiders of any brand often creak until you glue them on, which is only irritating, but man, you are paying a lot to get something irritating. Press fit can be done right but not everyone does. Carbon wheels and frames are really only great if you pay for great ones, the cheap ones are not laid up with nearly as much art. Etc...

Russ Roth

Hard to say, money no object it really depends. I had tested a number of bikes with sram red and force and couldn't objectively feel any difference so when I had a no money worry build on my then race bike I went with force since the red only came in red accents and the rival looked better on my white with blue air brush paint. I did swap on the cassette since the disc covered the red logo and lets face it, that was a much nicer cassette by far.
Dura Ace vs. Ultegra, I've usually noticed the difference and money no object would go DA every time. Ultegra is nice stuff and I've never spent the cash for DA while I've had 3 ultegra equipped bikes.
Wife gave me a money no object build on my cross bike and I wanted campy, ended up with record for the levers and brakes, could have gone super record but just couldn't see the returns on doing so when there was always the chance of breaking them but record was at a price point I won't worry about. Ended up with the rest of the bike Chorus since neither record or SR comes in gearing appropriate to a cross bike but Chorus did.
So there can be plenty of reasons not to go with the top tier money no object. Haven't used 11 or 12sp sram so maybe there's a real difference now that makes Red just worth the difference. Shimano I'd go with DA, it is just better in every generation, Campy I've never had the opportunity to ride SR and reading the info it doesn't seem to be more than a lightness difference, SR and Record are better than Chorus unless you need certain gearing.

WGB 

Everyone is missing the most important statement

​​​​Branko D But when I found discounted DA shifters and derailleurs last year I grabbed them anyway and upgraded

Focus people! Where are these discounted DA products??

Seriously though, even if you see only modest gains in performance, you will always see the gains that quality brings, both in longevity and also in looks/appeal. I bet everyone on this forum has several crank removal tools (usually see Park Tool CCP-22) but compare that to the Dura Ace version and the quality stands out. The Dura Ace tool is smoother to operate and it's more reliable. and it will last longer. I compare older VAR tools or quality Campagnolo tools to offerings by Park and sure the Park stuff works fine but ignoring the status of the final tools, don't the just work better (and look better).

Between Ultegra and DA there isn't much difference in functionality (for most of us) but there is that intangible, the pride in ownership.

Koyote

You see, you keep insisting that cost doesn't matter, but then you keep telling us that it DOES matter. And of course it does.

And why are you surprised that the thread got "sidetracked"? First, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, which doesn't help you to get a straightforward answer; are you asking only about the advantages of D/A, or about whether it's worth the extra cost? Even you don't seem to know. If the latter (as seems to be the case), no one but you can answer that question, because we don't know your budget constraint, whether your spouse will get mad if you spend more money, whether you've got a mortgage balloon payment coming up, whether your kid starts college this fall, or even how serious you are about cycling. Whether something is "worth it" to you is a question that no one else can answer...So that's why these threads end up like late night conversations among stoned college freshmen, meandering forever and never reaching a conclusion. That's not a surprising outcome...It's the expected outcome.

mstateglfr 

The OP can clearly afford either without a second thought. They are trying to figure out if buying DA is worth the cost, even though they can easily buy it.

​​​​​​At this point, anyone continuing to argue that the phrase was misused is just being obtuse or deliberately difficult.
The OP clarified what was meant by the initial comment.



Hey OP- go with Ultegra and allocate the difference to better wheels than you were initially considering, or a new GPS, or a donation to a local cycling organization.
Based on 3 deep dive podcasts I've listwned to in the last few days with a couple of Shimano road managers, you won't be able to tell the difference when riding. One of em said he doubts pros would know the difference.

tkamd73 

11Referring to the bike, not the rider.
Tim

Maelochs

If you had ever seen my trying to ride, you'd understand that no bike looks "cool" with me sitting on it.

tkamd73 

Yeah me too, most if not all bikes, look way cooler without the rider.
Tim

cyclezen

SO, to a large degree, this may be a chief deciding factor, so if cost is no object...

Lets take this a little further.
Cyclists, as a group are not superseded as having 'affectation', by any other group - many which push that envelope to the same high degree, motorcyclists, fly fisherpersons (PC), skiers, guitar players, photographers - the list is very extensive.
And, of course the discussion is always about the 'technology'... But aesthetics is that invisible hand which guides most everything...
so is it just the gruppo ??? what about the wheels, the saddle, the tires, your kit, the helmet ... and so on ???
maybe it has to be Ti, or steel, carbon or bamboo... what color, or combo or lack of same... ???
you get what I'm saying...
We all have our own aesthetic sense, so really the factors of 'performance' (which is prolly lost to the majority of us), technology, function, finally cost are all judged on the balance scale of 'aesthetics'.
what good is a work of top performance if it's 'ugly' in the eyes of the beerholders ??? Or, Jupiter forbid,,, the bike doesn;t fit into the latest bikie affectations...
I remember, not a few years back, when decals, large and stark, were required on every small open area on the frame, rims, saddle, stem and seatpost - Oh, creatures of fickle fashion that we are... The exact opposite now... is that due to performance ???
Finding the balance of all the factors mentioned is something we all wring our hands over... and often lie awake, churning it over and over through our grey matter (or is it gray matter ?)...
If you have to 'ask' US, the mundane Q of 'cost vs return/performance/tech/etc', then you're not facing the REAL issue.
Will I be HAPPY looking at the bike, even when I'm not riding it? Will it truly look as "Fast' as the cost would infer?
Could I have done better?
THOSE are things you will live with for whatever time you have that bike...
If money is no object, well then don;t let money decide how well you'll sleep at night.
be happy, especially when you can't always be 'fast'
ride on...
Yuri

PeteHski

Nothing surprises me on BF. Troll away dude. I don't care.

PeteHski

Thanks. Yes, this is the conclusion I have come to as well. If I go with Shimano it will be Ultegra for sure now. I kind of knew that all along, but it was just nagging me a little as I've never run DA or equivalent in all these years. Except for the odd test ride and there was no revelation.
I'm going to the shop on Thursday, so will be interesting to see what their view is.

PeteHski

Pride in ownership and Shimano are not really things I would normally equate. Shimano make great stuff consistently, but it just doesn't do much for my pride. Campag however might work on that intangible level. Simply because that was the bike gear I drooled over as a teenager.

PeteHski

I get what you mean, but I actually don't have much preference for the aesthetic qualities of the various group sets - especially not Shimano. Dura Ace, Ultegra, 105 - they all look the same to me. Sram Red looks "different" to their lower tiers, but it's not exactly a work of art to my eyes. Campag Super Record and Record look nice though. Taking this approach I would choose Campag for sure.

When it comes to the aesthetics of bikes, I don't look much beyond the frame and wheels to be honest. Front mechs are just plain ugly in all respects (1x is appealing to me on that level alone). Rear mechs are nice pieces of engineering, but beyond Campag I don't have much aesthetic preference. I'm not overly keen on the look of Sram cranksets - maybe it's the cheap looking graphics. But not a big deal for me. Function and reliability is king for groupsets as far as I'm concerned.

Kapusta

There is no objective answer to the OP’s question. Whether DA is worth it over Ultegra completely depends on

1- how much the gains are worth to the OP

vs

2- how much the money is worth to the OP.

While we can all give opinions on #1, only the OP knows #2.

PeteHski

We haven't really established if there are any real gains yet other than a slight weight saving. That's all I'm asking about really. I'm not expecting anyone to answer the second question for me.
If it is simply a weight saving, then it's not worth it to me. The other fuzzy feeling subjective stuff people mention doesn't interest me in the context of choosing a groupset, with perhaps the exception of Campag. So maybe I have my answer right there.

njkayaker

The person bike companies pay to buy another brand.

Kapusta

Owning both Ultegra and 105 components for years, I would say the same about them. The Ultegra have nicer machining and "feel" like a more quality made components to use, but honestly I see no difference in the actual performance outside of weight. The both shift and brake brilliantly, IMO, and are very durable over the years. Is the reduced weight and nicer finish/feel of Ultegra worth it? Depends on the bike, but I could justify it depending on the bike it was going on. It is certainly not frivolous spending for me. A treat, but not a frivolous one.

I am assuming the same is true of Ultegra VS Dura Ace (I have only tried DA, never owned it). The difference is that MY budget or what I want to spend on road bikes makes it NOT worth it. But someone more into nice finish and feel, or who spends more time on the bike, or who simply has a lot more money than I do may feel differently. The financial sacrifices I need to make are not the same as what other people may need to make.

From your comments in this thread, you would probably be perfectly happy with 105.

DMC707

Campagnolo all day long.

Just buy Chorus. Dura Ace quality, and gives up very little to Record

PeteHski

I have been happy with both 105 and Ultegra. 105 R7000 is particularly nice and what I'm running currently on my road bike apart from an Ultegra chain. If talking mechanical Shimano, I would go with 105 again for sure. It's solid and dependable. Sounds like DA is much the same really, just lighter materials and not necessarily more durable as some people presume. Being a mechanical engineer myself I know that lightness and durability don't naturally go hand-in-hand. It's always a compromise if you want to minimise weight. I'm not sure how conservative DA is in that respect, but it seems durable enough from I can see. As for finish, I struggle to tell any difference between 105, Ultegra and DA, although I haven't looked very closely at DA. Maybe close up it looks better, I don't know?

PeteHski

Yeah I'm leaning toward Campag for sure. Just to be different and I've always admired Campag.

Kapusta

Strength vs weight in not always a compromise. The compromise is a three way one:

Strong, light, cheap.... pick two.

Darth Lefty 

You can even pay infinite money and get no bike

PeteHski

Yes, but it’s still a compromise anyway. I worked in F1 engineering for a couple of decades. Everything was designed ultra-light at whatever cost. Components were very strong relative to their weight but still not very durable in absolute terms. I don’t know how much DA sacrifices in durability vs weight. Maybe it’s not that significant. All the major group sets seem well engineered these days.

Kapusta

No, it is not always a compromise.

By your logic, the boat anchor components on a $100 Walmart BSO would be stronger/more reliable than 105/Ultegra.

They are not.

However, if you are convinced that DA must be less durable because it is lighter, then I guess you know what to do here.

I can't speak for certain about DA as I am not that in that in tune with high end Road components, but on the MTB end, XTR (the top tier) gives up nothing to XT or STX in durability.

afm199

When I was racing and had money to burn, Campy SR because there were no alternatives back then.

Today SRAM Force or Shimano Ultegra are excellent choices, Shimano 105 is good.