sultanofsuede

I came across a Team Z bike (not sure exact year yet), and I was doing some research on what it might be worth. Found a couple bikes on ebay that claim to be 'replicas', but they're still asking for a decent amount of money for a replica frame.

so my questions is - what is a replica frame? is it essentially a true Team Z bike that maybe wasn't used by the team? is is a step down in tube quality? is it a full-on, repainted knock-off?

any help there? just wondering what I should look for when I go check out the bike this weekend.

mprince

In my experience, a "replica" would be a lower-spec bike with a paint scheme that approximates the real thing. Examples would have more mainstream group sets (105, Ultegra would be Shimano examples), and if steel the tube spec may differ (but many race bikes back in the day had pretty robust frames).

Bianchigirll 

Any pics or a link? What tubing is it? There are true team bikes, those being used by the actual team members. Then there are team spec bikes, that is the same tubing and kit that the team used. Then as noted the “replica” bikes which usually fall into a lower grade of tubing and kit. A good example of a replica is those purple and yellow ADR bikes that show up with Alle tubing and Xxenon that often show up.

IMHO unless a team member actually rode it it is a replica

verktyg 

Most of the first Team Z frames or at least the ones for Lemond were made by Roland Della Santa RIP. That was around 1990-1991.

Subsequent bikes were produced by several different European builders mainly in Italy. The Billato Brothers located in Padua, Italy were by and large the largest producers of Team Z era Lemond frames. Ten Speed Drive Imports in Florida was the primary importer of those frames into the US. Many came in as bare frames and were painted by "TSD" because they felt that they could apply a better job. A woman named Sue painted many of those.




The frames that Della Santa built had this color scheme: dark blue top, Dayglo yellow middle and red bottom. I think that they were painted by Joe Bell in SoCal???



Della Santa build sheet for Greg Lemond, January, 1990. 55cm seat tube by 57cm top tube center to center.



The Billato era bikes were red on top, yellow in the middle and light blue on the bottom. I picked up 2 of those Billato Team Z bikes from a SoCal collector back in 2007. One was a wall hanger that had never been on the ground, the other had a few hundred miles on it and I sold it to a BF member.



Billato was no slouch. They built actual team bikes for the likes of Concord PDM, GAN and many others. Their workmanship is top shelf!

As far as ACTUAL team bikes, they're truly rare and have lots of patina if they were ridden much. Here's a blurb from a 2007 Craigslist ad for a documented Team Z frame:

"For sale, to the highest bidder: A 1991 Greg LeMond Z-Team Tour de France professional road race team bicycle frameset.This is an official 1991 Team "Z" bicycle frameset that was built for Kim Andersen, a Dutch rider who was a racer on Greg LeMond's "Z" team that year.

This frameset was purchased from Pat Blades, Greg's brother-in-law through an ad that appeared in Velo-News after the racing season had ended. One of the perks of the team leader was to be able to sell all of the unused assets of the team as he saw fit. This frameset was built up for Andersen as a spare but was never raced or crashed."

Old poor quality CL photos from that sale of that Kim Anderson frame:





So getting back on topic, any real Team Z bike is going to be ~30 years old. Finding one with all the proper provenance is going to be difficult as there were probably only 30-50 bikes produced per season for each of the teams in the pro peloton.

As Bianchigirll mentioned there were a lot of "team replica" bikes produced by many marques during that era. The best were true replicas as they had all the features of the real team's bikes but many were lower priced models in team kit.

TSD sold a ton of bikes and frames in Team Z kit made of lower priced flavors of Columbus tubing. The real team frames were mostly made with Columbus TSX tubing. The "replicas" had Aelle, Cromor or some other spec.

Back in 1977 we acquired one of Lucian Van Impe's 1976 TdF winning Gitane bikes for display in our shop. We were expecting something really special but were sorely disappointed because it was just another bog standard, rode hard put away wet all Campy bike. I've had a number of bikes that were used by sponsored teams in Europe and here in the US. Aside from the number tags under the top tubes on some of the bikes, there's nothing really special about them.

One last comment, it's almost impossible to document a frame that's been resprayed! Paint can cover a multitude of sins. Here in the SF Bay Area I can make you a great deal on your choice of 7 different major bridges!

Good luck on your unicorn hunt!

verktyg

sultanofsuede

This is all really helpful. I'm going to take a look at the bike over the weekend and maybe have some pictures to show you after that. I sent a note to the seller to ask a few questions and didn't get much info back (seller is selling the bike for her husband). Just thought I'd check with the forum ahead of time to see if there are some specific things I should be looking for. Sounds like a lot of variables. I actually wouldn't be entirely against a replica, but just don't want to pay too much for one of those.

fabiofarelli

Just for the record,
Kim Andersen was not Dutch but Danish. But during the after-Tour rides he spend regularly a while in the Netherlands, in the village where I live.

Mackers

Billato never built Concorde's team bikes, just the PDM team replicas and Concorde's lower range.

The good stuff was built by Pellizoli and Martens/Martelly.

jamesdak 

Couple of more tidbits to help. Most of the time on Lemond production (replica) frames you'll find a frame size stamp on the underside of the bottom bracket. Under that will be a one, two, or three letter stamp indicating the tubing type. C= Columbus Cromor, TX = Columbus TSX, GLx = Excell GLX, etc. Stamped on the other side of the bottom bracket is usually a serial number. So you may be able to easily identify what it's made with. Also Billato will sometimes respond with some information on the bike if you contact them to ask, send pics of the BB and the serial number.


Size and tubing type, on the other side will be a serial number


As long as it's a true Lemond it's going to be a great bike no matter what it's made with. Even my "lower end" Cromor was beautifully built and rode like a dream while out under me.


The Cromor made it heavier but there was nothing inferior about this bike.


I can't see any situation where one of the Team Z bikes could be a "inferior" bike despite it's origin. I've got the one Chas mentioned above that he sold me. It's a wonderful bike on the road. But for years I've had another TDSI sold Maillot Jaune that is essentially the same bike. Just different paint and components. It's one of my all time favorites and still holds my PR for my standard 25 mile route over the 70+ other bikes I've had. I've now got that one listed for sale solely because I could use some space in the bike cave and no sense having two TSX tubed Lemonds. As a point of reference on value I've got it listed locally at $1200. Not going to let it go for less because of how mint it is and the parts I've put into it. That may help you with your value questions,


Using some custom made spacers and a modified Veloce 9 speed cassette to run modern wheels with this Campagnolo 8 speed setup.


Team Z bike I got from Chas has the place of honor in the bike cave. You can't go wrong with any Lemond if it's not beat up.

jamesdak 

Well, Billato for sure built this Concorde because Roberto told me so. May not be a team bike but certainly not something I'd call "lower range".


Still regret selling this.

The frame construction of the above bike was everybit as good as the true Martelly I had.


1985 Martelly with some "enhancements"!

The closest thing I've found on any of my 10 or so Billato built bikes that seemed "inferior" to any of the other Italians I had was the backwards rear brake Bridge on my Team Gan Lemond. I'm a Billato fan!


This is the only Billato built bike I've ever seen with the bridge facing this way.

jamesdak 

More info to maybe help sort out the bike you are looking at.

sultanofsuede

Awesome info here. Love the old catalog write ups. Here is the bike (hope this link works). Hard to tell much from the listing, but I might go check it out today.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...e_map%5C%22%3A[]%2C%5C%22grouping_info%5C%22%3Anull%7D%22%2C%22lightning_feed_qid%22%3A%22-6424223652109053126%22%2C%22lightning_feed_ranking_signature%22%3A%223014540792334123008%22%2C%22ftm d_400706%22%3A%22111112l%22%7D

Bianchigirll 

Sexxy!




I wonder if that is a Oria tubed frame?

BFisher

Looks like it's back on the market.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/27528999689...4AAOSwKoNiaNr1

jamesdak 

Yep, that's it for sure, Different saddle, seatpost, bar tape, tires and cable housing but that's the bike.

And no.....I'm not even thinking about it.