alfhasian

I'm looking at upgrading my current set of wheels in the near future from my current set (DT Swiss R470) to a carbon set (Roval C38). I've heard the best arguments for carbon wheels are their weight and aerodynamics. However in looking at the spec sheets, it looks like the net weight of my current wheels are 450g each whereas the C38's state 1560g for the set. Is this a fair comparison or am I looking at two different numbers here? Does the specified weight for the R470 not include hubs and spokes or something?

datlas 

I expect you are looking at just the rim weight for the DT Swiss. I suspect the wheelset you have is 1650-1700g. Plus the Roval are more aero. But the difference is likely modest. Real, but modest.

Robert A

450 grams for the R470 is for the rims alone.

https://www.dtswiss.com/en/products/...durance/r-470/

The weight spec for Roval is for a complete set with hubs and spokes.

https://rovalcomponents.com/products...disc-wheelset#

I'm no expert, but I don't think carbon wheels are necessarily lighter than alu. They're just able to be made deeper without adding weight.

Princess_Allez

The best reason for upgrading wheels is to go tubeless; aerodynamics second; weight third. Wait, scratch that. Looks first, then everything else proceeding

"Fred"

I have to agree with everything he said.

Koyote

If you really want to be faster, take the money you would've spent on the cf wheels and use it to buy some vacation time from work in order to train more, or use it for coaching, or for a power meter, or some combo of the above. If you are already doing all of this, then sure, get yourself some new wheels.

Dean V

Why do you have to do all this before you buy new wheels?

base2 

Because rims/spokes are a ridiculously tiny fraction the total amount of aerodynamic drag. Is it a statistically significant amount of drag? Yes. But it's on the order of 1 or2 digits of watts depending on speed. Read: less than a kph/½mph at normal speeds.

By all means, go buy carbon rims, if you'd like. Carbon rims are awesome. The added stiffness/responsivness from a deep dish wheel...The acceleration from a decent light wheelset is something that's just cool to behold. But don't expect to set your tires on fire with all that extra speed. Their actual gain, even among the best like ENVE 7.8/ZIPP 808's, etc...in relation to what you already have won't be as much as learning to hold a more aerodynamic body position & training to put down real power & sustain it in that position.

The faster you go the more they become worth the cost. Even more so when the wind is at slight yaw angles. But even then, how much time do you spend above 25mph/40kph? Enough to justify a few thousand dollars cost? Maybe...

New tires for example can save you 30-50 watts or more of rolling resistance depending on where you are starting from. Say, Gatorskin Hardshells with standard tubes & moving to GP5000 & latex or tubeless...so 1 or 2 mph depending on speed.

$50 Clip-on aero bars can easily net you 2 mph, depending on speed.

Strength & stamina workouts on a trainer can be another 2, 3, or 5 mph or more before the start of a season & costs nothing & will net a lot more ability than a carbon wheelset.

I'm writing all this as a guy that owns far too many ridiculously expensive carbon wheelsets. Rims aren't the reason some people are fast...It's the strength/stamina threshold, V02 max workouts 4 days a week.

noodle soup

While most or all of this is correct, the OP never mentioned “getting faster” as a reason for a new wheelset.

base2 

He asked Koyote why he would need to hire a trainer & other stuff before dumping money on a fancy set of wheels. I was answering why. So he can put money where the largest improvements can be had most effectively...Also to temper expectations. I know I expected to be a lot faster with my first carbon wheel set. What it did not get me was more ability. So I wanted to share where money could be more stratigically spent & calibrate expectations.

Like said above: If he's already doing all those things, then buy away. He won't regret being fit enough to really put them in the performance range they are designed to be in.

Koyote

The OP states that he/she understands aerodynamics and weight to be the best arguments in favor of cf wheels; do you know many (any) cyclists who are concerned about aerodynamics and weight independently of speed?


You can spend your money however you wish. The OP was asking, albeit indirectly, how to get faster, and is obviously a bit new to cycling. base2 and I have given useful advice.

noodle soup

Really?

Where? Certainly not in this thread.

Koyote

Now you’re being deliberately obtuse. base2 got the OP mixed up with another poster - but the OP is obviously interested in getting faster, and so the advice was spot-on.

noodle soup

the OP said nothing about getting faster.

He/she asked a question about wheel weight.

You derailed the thread by making an assumption.

Stop doing that.

Russ Roth

Carbon wheels won't necessarily save you weight, the carbon can allow for a deeper, optimal width rim for the same or slightly less weight. I just built my wife a set of wheels with 25mm wide rims that are 28mm deep which is really nice and only 445g. A carbon rim that is 25mm wide and the same weight might be more like 38-45mm deep so presumably more aero and stiffer or might be both more aero and a few grams lighter so saving an once or two. The result, depending on current wheel quality, you don't specify your hubs etc., means some weight savings, some aero advantage and possibly better hubs that will help you see some gains; though maybe not as great as you'd like. Helmet, clothing and position will help you see greater gains with position being the most significant. It doesn't mean that it isn't worth it to you; once ended up in second place by 2/10ths of a second on a 30 mile course after an hour and 20 min of racing. A minimal improvement of an extra 1/4 mile an hour meant the head of the pack might not have managed to catch me in the last few feet (I'd dumped the pack on an uphill 2 miles from the finish).

Koyote

I’m still waiting for you to explain how a person who’s interested in lighter and more aerodynamic wheels is not interested in speed.

Seattle Forrest

Only every roadie who's ever had to lift their bike.

noodle soup

I guess no one ever wants to get some deep CF wheels simply because they look slick, and don’t want a set of boat anchors that handle like **** in crosswinds.

DrIsotope

Nothing wrong with buying carbon wheels because they look cool. They do look cool. For most people any difference in speed will be negligible, unless they're coming from a +2,000g wheelset to begin with.

I like mine. They look cool. Maybe I'm 0.3mph faster. But I didn't spend Zipp/ENVE money, so looking cool is pretty much enough.

bonsai171

Not to sidetrack this thread, but what brand cip on aero bars are you talking about? Been wanting to try some.

Dave

base2 

I actually had these in mind when I typed that. Vision also makes some J-bend ones too at the same price.

As for myself, at the other end of the spectrum I run ones from Redshift as the convenience of instant clip-on/off without tools & the matching dual position for on-the-fly TT position swayed my decision. I've only had the system for a few weeks, but so far the seat post really is worth it as it allows for more sustainable power when up on the bars. (Making power when on aero bars on a road bike is, for me at least, is an either/or proposition)

For the frugally inclined: The Redshift dual position seat post could be matched to any bars, including the $50 ones above to achieve 99% the benefit of a full TT bike for ~$230.

MoAlpha

My spouse says thanks for this thread and the 2k she gets to spend on spring boat prep.

Jack Tone 

I'm not sure where I read it, but I read that deep dish carbon rims are more rigid, but actually make a less rigid wheel. (compared to shallower carbon rims).

Doge

450g EA would be rims. If it were the wheels the rear would be more.

"upgrade" depends a bit on how you want to use them. You mention weight and aerodynamics. Higher profile (aero) means more weight. For many riders an upgrade would be lower weight over more aero.

Low profile alloy wheels are often lighter than carbon if a clincher configuration.
The walls need to be thicker for the brake track in carbon. In deep profile, carbon are lighter. Shimano alloy wheels - the Ultegra and DuraAce are great in low profile.

If you want larger profile, there will be some handling changes, as well as them being heavier. They are not as responsive and side winds are more noticeable, they are typically harsher riding.

I would not shy away from the USA 2nd tier brands using Asian rims, Euro spokes and built in the USA. I'm a big fan of https://mercurycycling.com/ who has W2 builders in Utah. The building and truing is very good. That is not to say others cannot be as good.

Bah Humbug

I haven't heard that. What I have heard is that more rigid wheels are the wheels that rub, as deflection at the road surface causes deflection at the top of the wheel rather than dissipating as flex. Could that be what you're thinking of?