myermano

Hi all,

First time posting here, and hoping the community can help me out!

I picked up a really good looking 1980s/90s concorde frame that I will do up into a fixie. Its turning into a bit of a project which I'm looking forward to but wanting to get moving on. I have a lot of the parts i need, wheels, peddles, steering post and handlebars... my issue comes from the headset and bearings.

I went into a bike store today in search of a new bearing set, and the guy pointed out that it would be wise/needed to replace the entire headset. It takes a 22mm steering tube, and, as per the bike mechanic, i'm in need of a 22mm pin bearing, headset. It ended with him suggesting that due to the age of the bike and the kind of headset i need, I would be wiser to search online for the older style headsets that would be most appropriate, and that bike stores in town would likely not stock compatible headsets.

My scant knowledge ran into some trouble and now i'm left wandering the internet learning about pin, ball, and sealed bearings, stack heights, ISO and JIS headsets..... Safe to say, I'm a bit lost with what i actually need / need to know, which brings me here.

I'm wondering if anyone has experience in renovating an older concorde frame, and if advice could be given to regarding the headset and bearings.

Thanks in advance!

Steel1

Hello and congratulations on your Concorde frame purchase. Would love to see a photo because it sounds cool. Most people here will suggest that you do not alter the frame in case you would later like to revert to a geared solution.

Most vintage steel frames with 1 inch steerer tubes take a 22.2 mm stem, some French frames take 22.0. So my guess is you need 22.2 stem.

Do you have both the frame and fork already? If so, you need to measure the head tube length on the frame, and the steerer tube length on the fork. The difference between the two determines the necessary stack height.

You will need to select a headset that has a stack height LESS then your measured value (fork minus frame). If needed, you can make up any difference with washers or spacers.

I recently bought a Campagnolo HS7-RE headset, which has stack height of 35.6mm. The fork - frame was 38.5mm. I used one 2mm spacer (Amazon) and it worked perfectly.

Bearings can be caged, loose, or sealed. Most old bikes came stock with caged bearings. The Campagnolo headset listed above uses caged. Sometimes if the headset becomes damaged, people replace the caged bearing with loose balls (more balls) to avoid having the balls fall into pits that have been created in the races. Sealed bearings are great but are a much more modern solution. Lastly, there are roller bearings, but that is only if you really want to go over the top.

unworthy1

If that's an accurate quote, and pending what pix of this Concorde show: avoid that mechanic!
Most Concordes sold in the US were contract built in Italy (with a few rarely seen exceptions) and if yours is late '80s to '90s (probably) then there are plenty of threaded headsets available but don't know where your town is so perhaps online will be most practical for you to find the right one.
I have heard of all sorts of bearings used for headsets but never a "pin bearing" closest would be a "needle bearing" but cannot think of any brand 1" threaded HS that used such. The very well-regarded Stronglight A-9 used small roller bearings but nobody called those "needle bearings" and certainly not "pins".
First thing to check is what brand and model HS you Have or had on this Concorde, cause that will tell you what stack-height your frame/fork requires.
Then we can made a bunch of suggestions to help you shop.
Pix are always best: you can upload them into a gallery in your profile, and once there somebody here can copy/paste them into this thread.

Bianchigirll 

Good Morning. I agree with the others you should try another shop or mechanic/salesperson at this shop. Some shop employees can't think outside of the box and only know shipmano thingie with a shimano thingie or a shimano whatsit with a shimano whatsit and would never try and swap a watsit for a thingie

Unless the bearing races are very worn or damaged like the pitting in this cup you should be fine with just new bearings. If they don't have bearings in retainers that fit you can always buy loose balls and put them in your retainers.

You need 10 post over 2 days before you can post pics but if you want to send a few to me I'll get them posted for you, BianchiGirLL@yahoo.com

Damaged headset cup

Hondo6

Now, I'm not horribly familiar with French components. But didn't the old French-manufactured roller-bearing headsets (Stronglight et al) from the 80s/90s require the use of roller bearings due to their bearing race design? Pretty sure those were made in both ISO/English/Italian and French threading.

If so - and the OP has one installed on the frame/fork - he may either need replacement roller bearings or a new headset vice simply new headset bearing balls. (I agree with @unworthy1 that the mechanic's use of the term "pin bearing" was nonstandard and confusing.)

OP: pictures would certainly help. You can either take @Bianchigirll up on her offer or post them to an album you create (you can do that). Someone will assist by posting them here on your behalf in the latter case.

You also might want to consider getting an inexpensive digital caliper if you don't have one and are planning to do your own mechanical work. They're extremely valuable if not essential for checking parts diameters/lengths/etc . . . .

You also might find this article by the late Sheldon Brown helpful, especially the sizing chart about 1/2 way through the article.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/headsets.html

myermano

Hi Everyone!
Thanks so much for your responses, super appreciated!

So, I've added the photos ( of the headset and bearing, along with a pic of the frame) to my gallery, unfortunately I am not able to include a url, so it would be appreciated if someone else could link them!. Another question, how do i determine the brand of the headset currently in use?

Unfortunately, I realise now that I should've added a pic similar to Bianchigirll to show the cup that will hold the bearing.

I picked up the stem yesterday, indeed a 22mm fits well, and i believe the fork is the original.

Thanks again!

JohnDThompson 

Pic assist. Looks like a cartridge-bearing headset:

unworthy1

sure is^ thanks for the pic-assist, JohnDThompson but these are pretty low-res so hard to make out any brand details, IF there are any.

In my experience these HS with *sealed cartridge bearings* are frequently un-branded and made in China, the quality can be okay but sometimes you get what you paid for (meaning sub-par quality); often they have a split (alloy) bottom fork crown race that allows them to fit both 26.4 and 27.0 crown race seats, but the OP's might be solid (might be best to leave it as installed since there isn't a "wear-surface" involved with this part, does not actually contact the balls sealed between races in the bearing.

Other thing I have noted is this style HS usually has a LOWER stack height than conventional 1" threaded HS we in the C&V demo find, so question is if the fork steerer has been cut to fit you might have to stick with this HS or another with as low a stack height (we need more details).

You can often find JUST the sealed bearings sold online, I have bought them for a number of HS and if you're lucky the old ones with have numbers engraved on the steel, occasionally molded into the seals but not much space for that with these really narrow seals.

OR with a digital caliper you could take your own measurements and start online shopping, be sure to note what surfaces are beveled (chamfered) and with what angle, usually you need a 45 degree on inner surface(s). I have found high grade cartridge HS bearings for as much as $35 but also Chinese bearings for as low as $5 ea. Shop with care.

unworthy1

Here's the only pic OP has in their gallery of the Concorde frame: it has already been "drewed" of the shifter bosses and RD hanger...oh well!
But appears to have some kind of Columbus tubing and perhaps a GPM seat post.
Cannot tell how the frame with fork and HS might look when all together so a pic of THAT would be helpful!

Hondo6

I hate to be a nag here. However, here you say here "a 22mm fits well". A 22mm what, and it fits well where? And is that 22mm - or 22.2mm?

If you can't re-use your existing headset, this matters.

Older French stems were 22mm OD in order to fit older French forks' metric 25.0mm steerer tubes - which are 0.4mm smaller in OD than that on an English/ISO 1" threaded forks. The latter use 22.2mm OD stems. They're also threaded differently - English/ISO forks have 1" x 24TPI threading, while a French-threaded fork has threads that are 25x1mm.

The two types are not directly interchangeable.

Hondo6

FWIW: Velobase does have a page on Concorde bicycle frames.

https://velobase.com/Velos/ListFrame...d-2775da18f764

Spot-checking indicates that Concorde frames generally used Italian BB shells. Logically, this would imply a good likelihood of using either Italian or British/ISO fork threading (the two are generally interchangeable - a "class B" fit, as I recall). However, the entries I saw said nothing about the headsets or fork threading. It's at least theoretically possible some Concordes were produced that used French specifications.

myermano

Thanks for all the responses! I have now added some pics of the stem cup, to my untrained eye, what should i look out for to indicate wear?

Hondo6 appreciate the nag, the devil is in the detail. I meant that a 22mm diameter steer stem fits well in the existing fork. I believe that the bike is indeed Italian manufactured. In terms of the impact of the threading, the steer stem is threaded (quill stem).

I guess what i am wondering at this point, is what bearings and headset i need for the specific frame/stem/cup combination i currently have. I notice the 'dura ace' around the side, would this suggest i 'just' need to acquire a similar dura ace headset (and that the bearings will be the ones needed)? Since i'm not too familiar with all the different bearings (cartridge/ cup open vs closed....), I am struggle a bit to distinguish the key info i need to choose the right headset.

Again, thanks!

Unfortunately forgot to measure the stack height this morning, so that info is yet to come.

Hondo6

If the headset is in fact marked "Dura Ace" on the cups AND it is cartridge bearing, then I think you have a "good news - bad news" scenario.

The good news: it's very likely an HP-7410. That's the only cartridge bearing Dura Ace headset I can find in Shimano's document repository. If that's what it is, the top nut (if original) should be marked "VIA JAPAN VC SHIMANO HP-7410 BC1" on the top flat. Velobase gives the stack height as 37.6mm. If that's what you have, it's a great headset. Posting a good photo of the top of the top nut showing any writing on it should (if the top nut is original) allow confirmation.

The exploded view (EV) for the HP-7410 indicates it was made in English/ISO and JIS versions only, with no mention whatsoever of a French threaded version. So French threading on your copy would be IMO extremely unlikely.

The bad news: bring money - and luck - if you have to replace the bearings. Shimano has apparently quit supporting this headset, and it's my understanding the bearings were of a special design (can't confirm or deny this from personal experience). The only sets of replacement bearings I've seen for sale recently were around $60 + tax and S/H - and it's been a while since I checked. And complete headsets are also pricey, even used.

However, if the existing bearings are OK you can reuse them. And if they wear out, you won't need to find a French threaded headset of less than 38mm stack height. All you'll need to know at that point is whether yours is JIS or English/ISO (most likely). Both of those are still relatively easy to find in 1" threaded (Tange makes good ones).

You can determine which you have by measuring the crown race seat on your fork. If it's 26.4mm, it's ISO. JIS will be 27.0mm.

guy1138

I recently parted out a Concorde and it had a roller/needle bearing headset, looked like the bearings in this listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/255987739950

unworthy1

I guess SOMEbody calls them "roller/needle bearings", but IMO a true needle bearing has thinner "rollers" and in some cases they aren't captured at both end by a cage, making them pretty tricky to install (looking at YOU, old BMW transmission shaft!)
Those in ebay ad ^ are used in Stronglight A-9, B-10 and rebranded as Galli headsets, apparantly there is a Miche HS that uses them too.
BUT WAIT: there are several other brands/models I just ran across that also use these (by appearances) same angled roller bearings with the stamped steel contact "race inserts" the color of plastic cage varies: Stronglight has a model X-14 that looks suspiciously like a rebranded Mavic; there's a Rudelli; Toro Odyssey (may be 1-1/8") and maybe others...

unworthy1

a BMW needle bearing