Branko D

If the bike shop or car dealership has to order it and don't have it in stock there are absolutely zero reasons for me to not to order it online.
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GlennR

My LBS said that customers can order bikes online that they can't get. He said that Specialized, Cannondale and Trek will force him to stop trying to sell bike and only sell accessories and service. If that's the case then he doesn't need a storefront on main street and can move to a much smaller space off the beaten path to cut his costs... since his income has been cut.

downhillmaster

Was talking about American dealerships. Can’t speak for rest of the world.
If you believe haggling of any type is ‘18th century’ though you are quite uninformed and exactly the type of customer that is ripe for abuse in any retail establishment. Go in anywhere with a pre-conceived and ill informed notion and things can get ugly quick.
Ever buy a high end watch? I have multiple times and every shop that sells them will discount in a normal market. I have even gotten 10% off a Rolex. Not in this current market though ofc.
Do your homework, know market pricing, and ask for it. If they say no you simply decline. It’s not difficult or scary. If your time is more valuable to you then you have a choice.
You can almost always simply pay msrp for a car though, as you did with your Tesla

dedhed

Around here there has been a large consolidation of new auto dealers, especially in metro markets. Some auto groups may own upward of 20 dealerships statewide (or even tri state) encompassing 10 or more brands.

indyfabz

Fun fact: Rabbits eat one type of their own droppings. It's very healthy for them.

Why Does My Rabbit Eat His Poop?

Koyote

And some sheep drink their own urine.

downhillmaster

I’m in north jersey and we also have a lot of large auto groups. Luckily there is still enough competition to keep pricing in line but that may not be the case everywhere.

livedarklions

As do the pigs from Guinea.

https://petkeen.com/why-guinea-pigs-...20their%20poop!

Bald Paul

Let's take your analogy out a bit.
You order your car online. Get the model, color, features you want. Shortly afterwards, your car shows up in your driveway, delivered by truck.
You did all this because you don't have any local dealers to go to. They all closed because the manufacturer changed to DTC marketing and pulled the franchises long ago.
You're happily out driving your new car for the first time, and suddenly, the "CHECK ENGINE" light comes on, and it starts running like crap. Or, after an hour long drive, you realize the drivers seat just isn't comfortable for you, and is giving you lower back pain.
Good luck getting that engine problem diagnosed and repaired under warranty. I doubt you're going to find a nearby repair shop with techs factory trained in the newest systems, and with all the required special equipment to do the diagnosis and repair. Oh, and they will probably want payment up front, and let you argue about being reimbursed by the factory, as I know of ZERO independent shops that will work for warranty times and labor rates. And it's really too bad you didn't get a chance to test drive that model before you signed on the dotted line, because you're stuck with it. (An uncomfortable seat is NOT a warranty issue.)
My LBS allows customers to test ride bikes along the MUP located right behind his shop. When you buy your bike, he takes the time to make sure everything is adjusted correctly and it fits you. 10% off any accessories (helmets, cages, etc.) I'll go to him to get what I need, even if he has to order it, and knowing full well I could order it myself from some online mega-mart to support their space program. With the supply issues lately, he'll sometimes tell me that I'm better off searching for the part online myself, because his suppliers don't have it and probably won't for some time. If I do find what I'm looking for online, and need help/special tools (such as replacing a press fit BB in a carbon frame) he's happy to do it, and his workmanship is stellar.
Would I miss him if he closed? You bet.

Koyote

You're conflating two things that don't necessarily go together: selling cars and servicing them. Selling direct-to-consumer does not necessarily mean a lack of warranty service facilities. Example: https://www.tesla.com/service

Ditto for bike sales. The Specialized model under discussion involves D2C sales, but still includes Spec shops.

downhillmaster

Spot on.
Anyone that thinks that car dealerships and LBS are not necessary is pretty clueless.

downhillmaster

Fair point. Take service out of the equation though and his scenario is still valid. And using his scenario, I highly doubt every manufacturer would be able to provide specific repair facilities local to all customers.
Tesla is never a great example in these kinds of discussions btw. In my area they don’t even consider or take in on site trade-ins. They also average around 4-6 months for purchase. That’s a huge hassle for most people.

Koyote

I haven't read the entire thread carefully, but I don't recall anyone making either of these arguments.

PeteHski

Yep, I've bought several high end watches. Just politely Emailed a load of official dealers and took the best bid. They came in well under normal retail price every time. In the UK there are loads of third party new car brokers who effectively do the same thing on your behalf. You just pop in the details of the new car you want and they take bids from competing dealers, who pay them for the intro. I've been down that route too and saved thousands on retail. But all you are doing is cutting the dealer margin down. A dealer you have no personal interest in funding. The likes of Tesla and Canyon just cut out the middleman altogether, so there is no dealer margin to haggle over. It generally makes the product cheaper than it otherwise would be with a dealer taking their cut. So it becomes a simple question of whether or not you value the dealership service. Personally I don't feel a need to be paying for sales advice.

You've basically said it yourself. Walk into a new car dealership and expect to get ripped off if you don't know what you are doing. The customers who need their hands holding the most are the ones most likely to get a bad deal.

Bald Paul

Just looked up Tesla service centers. There are ZERO in my state (SC) I used to live in MA, and unless you're in the Boston metro area, you're SOL. No thank you.
While Specialized is still considering Specialized shops for service, what happens when those shops close? Unless they want to go the route of Trek and buy out all the shops, it's hard to say to a shop owner, "Hey, we know we screwed you out of all your sales, but you have to stay open to service our brand even though you're losing money doing it." without eventually seeing a one-finger salute coming back at you.

downhillmaster

I did not state that. I stated that you are likely to get abused if you walk into any retail establishment without having done any research AND with an attitude such as what would be displayed by referencing ‘18th century’ haggling.
You obviously understand this so I doubt you would have any problems at all.
But I do believe you are off base if you truly think that you are getting a good price or a value on a Tesla just because they don’t operate a normal dealership model.
That doesn’t mean a Tesla is not a good purchase for you ofc. It just is what it is.

PeteHski

Really? Tesla have just taken a part-ex on my 4 year old Model X against a new Model Y and the deal was excellent. 4-6 months wait? More like a couple of weeks. 4-6 months wait for high end new car orders is not exactly rare over here either. Try ordering a new Porsche and see how long that takes.

downhillmaster

Again, I am speaking for the US and Tesla has always been a much longer than average lead time.
The US has always had shorter lead times vs the rest of the world on all vehicles btw.
Also as I stated earlier, Tesla is a poor example for our discussion. I believe they represent less than 2% of the worldwide vehicle market

Koyote

Yes, waiting several months is a problem for some customers, not so much for others. But the same thing is currently happening with plenty of other new vehicles.

As for trade-ins...Looks like Tesla makes it easier than going to the dealer:
https://www.tesla.com/support/trade-ins

downhillmaster

Tesla recently offered trade-ins in some areas which is huge but they still don’t give you a true on-site appraisal until you are at the finish line and that is problematic for a lot of buyers.

Koyote

I think these things go hand-in-hand, don't they? I mean, if you do the initial appraisal when ordering, then wait a few months for delivery, they'll need to do a final assessment of the trade-in as its condition may have changed. This isn't really a Tesla thing -- you'd likely face it with any new car purchase that involves waiting for delivery. Which is a lot of them right now.

Oh, and if we're talking about getting the best price on a new car, why would we even be talking about trade-ins? That's how you get the least value for your old car.

downhillmaster

Yes and no. As I stated earlier, Tesla is a bad example as they are only 2% of the overall market.
In a normal US market almost all vehicles are purchased right off a lot and in that case you get an actual appraisal number on your trade before you have to go all the way through with the purchase. It’s very important for most buyers.
To your second point, you get a significant tax credit when trading in so it can still be a viable option. Especially considering the fact that selling a car privately can be a huge hassle to most people and leave you open to possibly getting scammed.

livedarklions

I guess you just proved Canyon isn't selling any bikes, then, right?

Specialized knows that the dealers/service centers are an asset in making some sales, but of no value at all if there aren't any within a reasonable geographic distance from the prospective purchaser. Also, keep in mind that for many people, the value of a warranty on a $40,000 car is quite a different proposition than one on a $1500 bike, and that's not even taking into consideration the relative mechanical and electronic complexity of the two types of machines.

I would expect that Specialized has a lot better data on how important in-person dealership is to its prospective customers.

I've still yet to see anyone on this thread offer a sensible alternative to what Specialized is doing that won't either require them refusing to sell to people without access to or desire to work with a LBS (which is a ridiculous sacrifice of market share which will just get bigger over time) or just screwing the LBS completely (which would be the Canyon approach). Strikes me that Specialized is trying to work a compromise between those two extremes.

Koyote

Yes, agreed on all points.

Mojo31

I get lots of added value from the dealerships we use. The primary dealer has a fantastic service department that has gone way out of its way to take care of things on my cars, always gives the car back clean and well cared for, provides a loan car when ours are in for service, among other things. The sales department keeps me on the list for the fun promotional events, lets me know of launches and new model releases, doesn't push anything, is very transparent on the monetary side, and much more. I've been able to develop a personal relationship with the sales and service people, and that has been invaluable.

Frankly, I would not want to buy a car online, and then when it breaks have to try to find someone to fix it. While that may not be a problem with bikes such as Canyon since one drive train is no different than the next from a maintenance perspective, cars are a whole nuther beast.