Iride01 

Well the OP did somewhat justify their reason for asking when they said this...

Though I'm wondering if that slow city riding demanding sharp turns is pedestrians on the sidewalk and that the OP is doing <3 mph while riding through or with them.

Riveting

I learned the ratcheting method, because I had to with that particular bike. But this type of ultra low speed U-turn occurred for me so infrequently that ratcheting wasn't instilled in me as a 2nd nature instinct, and sometimes I'd forget to ratchet, overlap occurred, and I went down. I then bought a Spec Roubaix that doesn't do that. Overlap problem solved (for me). I'm not saying overlap can't be lived with, I'm saying I won't live with it. And apparently others think this way too. Have you never replaced something that didn't perform the way you wanted it to, with one that does? Or do you just continue to use sub-par stuff because you can learn to work around its faults?

tkamd73 

Sorry, but nothing about my bikes are subpar. The subpar part, would be the rider who could not accommodate them.
Tim

KJ43

Yup. It's fine if someone doesn't want to develop the technique, or just buy bikes that don't have toe overlap, but it isn't the bike that is the issue, it's the rider.

It's like someone complaining about never learning to do the soft pedal stroke when shifting and then complaining about the sub-par derailleur because of the harsh shifting.

Iride01 

If bikes were made to have no possibility of toe overlap, then they would be sub-par for everything else I currently use a bike for.

Kapusta

I think what you are missing is that I view the geo changes needed to eliminate all toe overlap to be what is in fact "sub-par". And apparently those designing these bikes feel the same.

I think what some folks may be missing as that the smaller the frame, the more drastic the changes you need to make to the top tube and/or head angle and/or fork offset to eliminate the toe overlap for certain sized feet.

If you are riding a frame size that is on the border of this, then it may well be that one frame has toe overlap for you and another does not, because the differences in geo needed to avoid the overlap may be pretty small.

But things are different for small frames. I ride frames in the 47-50 cm range with a size 9 foot and 170mm cranks. I've never ridden a road bike in this range with 32mm+ tires that did not have some overlap. The geo changes needed to eliminate it from these sizes I would find unacceptable. Could I work with it and ride the bike? Sure, but why would I bother for something that is a total non-issue for me to start with.

Clearly, if toe overlap is not something that one can safely manage, then the geo changes would make sense. But other people manage it with zero issue. Folks should not assume that since THEY can't ride it safely that nobody else can.

Like I said before, it is like pedal strikes in corners. We could just raise bottom brackets and use short enough cranks to allow us to pedal through hard turns.... but instead we just learn to not do it.

prj71

Rocks, roots, rock gardens...

Previous bike had pedal strikes. Not my new one.

Kapusta

Saying that you are no longer getting pedal strikes is not the same as saying you can pedal through whatever you want to without worrying about where your pedals are.

If what you are claiming is that you can pedal over any rocks and roots without regard to hitting your pedals with a 13.7' BB, then either your rocks and roots are small, or you do not realize that you are accommodating for them.

prj71

Not sure where I'm losing you. My previous bike had a lower BB. My newer bike has a higher BB. Both have same length cranks. Old one pedal strikes quite often...New one...None at all on the same trails since I've owned. Higher BB makes a difference.

It's much easier to buy a bike with a higher BB than have to fiddle around with pedaling techniques to avoid pedal strikes. Same concept as people that jack up their jeeps with lift kits...it's easier to clear obstacles and not scrape the bottom of the jeep when it's up higher.

And one more thing...My toes will not hit the front wheel with a higher bottom bracket!!!!

Kapusta

I think you missed the point of my post that you were originally responding to. This is going nowhere.

cxwrench

If you've fallen 'several times' and continue to ride the bike you are obvisouly not satisfied with I don't know what to say. You either learn to deal w/ it or you don't...and you continue to fall because you're too stubborn to learn simple techniques that thousands of riders have figured out with ease. How to avoid it? Obviously don't put yourself in situations where it will cause problems. Don't do trackstands. Don't make super tight turns at very low speeds. It's not hard. As I mentioned I've had it on every bike I've owned and it's just not a big deal. Or get a custom frame that will eliminate it but probably won't fit well.

urbanknight

The arguments in this thread make me want to start a parody thread where I complain about my pedals striking the ground when I corner while pedaling. They should make bikes with much higher bottom brackets so I don't have to learn the proper way to ride my bike.

Riveting

I relegated that bike (that I put 12,200 miles on) to Zwift when I got a Spec Roubaix that didn't have overlap for me. And I ultimately got rid of the bike a year ago, to a new rider that I expected to not make more advanced super slow turns on, but I warned them. With that bike I both learned to deal with overlap, as well as moments of not dealing with it...well. I'm an Engineer and learn things quite well, as well as learning to deal with overlap by short stroke ratcheting, which isn't hard to learn, but is hard to instantly recall to do. My slow speed u-turns happened so infrequently that it's easy to not put it away to muscle memory. Low speed turns are more about balance than anything, so that's what you focus on, and therefore overlap is easy to occur when you least expect it, in my experience. Because overlap is one of those things that can take you down very quickly, and unexpectedly, albeit sometimes at near track stand speeds, I believe anything that can take you down without warning shouldn't be thought of as "not a big deal" and is irresponsible of you to imply. I didn't need a custom frame to eliminate it, just a production frame/fork that didn't have it (for me), and I didn't have to look hard to find it. The bike that I replaced the "overlap" bike with, now has 18,000 miles on it and I haven't fallen from overlap once, because it has none, for me.

Rolla

Someone should make adult training wheels for those who can't manage to get their feet out of the way when turning.

KJ43

And make them wear diapers so everyone can laugh at them!

rossiny

I never understood this toe thing , until I bought a Casati Ellis. It was a wonderful bike , but I just didn't understand why my Rossin Record i bought new in 1985 about had no overlap but the Casati did? The toe clips cleared by about 1/2 inch on my Rossin. It road beautiful and I never thought about this. Then I bought that Casati and it had toe overlap. Another time I accidentally bought a Schwinn Voyageur touring bike, same major toe overlap. I sold both bikes. I realize it almost never comes into play, except if your riding in the city and make a tight turn , even then, you can do the one pedal pump trick. But for me no toe overlap on my bikes. I have since become a fan of vintage mountain bikes.. no toe overlap 🚫

freetors

Of all the bikes I own they tend to have longer front centers for more stable handling so none of them toe overlap. I personally think overlap is a poor compromise to achieve a bike with "race" handling. If you're on an average size frame and you have toe overlap it could just as easily be argued that your frame is too short and twitchy handling.

Kapusta

What is an "average" sized frame?

79pmooney

My Fuji Pro, a bike that fit perfectly and was the best descender I ever rode had no overlap using the largest of the day toeclip and 175 cranks. So I just don't buy it that a bike has to have overlap to get good handling. (It did also have a very high BB; something I used to advantage in races may times. I had zero sprint and accelerations out of corners cost me a lot. With that bike I could often leave a little gap ahead going into the corner, take it faster and start pedaling sooner to minimize the sprinting I had to do.

Edit: this was also a very quick steering bike. I loved that I could maneuver through the crashes of Cat 03-4 races. Quicker than I would ever want in a non-race bike but it saved my butt a few times. The idea that a non-overlap bike can't have race handling? That completely stock bike (except rims and rubber) was proof against that.

I know this is blasphemy for some but to me, bikes are tools. Ones that work better - for me - are better tools and ones that get used more often. Bikes with significant overlap are tools that are not very well engineered to be user friendly for quite a few of us. They have a place but are not the best for everybody.

prj71

Or buy a bike that fits properly. I think that's most of the problem.

I don't have toe overlap on my Trek Domane. 5'8" with 32" inseam riding a 54. If I did have toe overlap I would have purchased a 56 and shortened the stem.

blacknbluebikes 

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this..."
Toeverlap. Hilarious thread.

urbanknight

Quite the opposite, actually. The shorter frame lets them run a longer stem, which is what makes for more stable handling.
https://road.cc/content/feature/how-...-length-231879

Furthermore, if you increase the fork rake (to get the wheel forward and away from the toes), you reduce the trail and make the steering even more twitchy.
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/11/the-...-the-steering/

If you have large feet or a mid-sole cleat position, you might have to sacrifice a lot in order to get rid of toe overlap, which as this thread shows, is not a concern for the majority of us. I can understand the OP's reasons, but that doesn't make it the rest of our problem.

freetors

Those aren't the only ways to increase the front center of a bike.

urbanknight

You're the one who chose making the frame longer, but state some other examples, and keep in mind how they affect other parameters.

Rolla

Having to run a stubby stem is a better indicator of an improper fit than toe overlap, but you do you.