More Froome disk bashing
04-28-22, 11:29 AM
#26
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Read the quote:
“The biggest thing is the weight factor because now you add 300-400 grams to the bike, so where are you going to lose that weight? Ultimately, you need to lose it on the frame or the wheels. That’s it, which means you need to get super light, once again pushing the boundaries there."
The cited issue is the extra weight of disc brakes, and having to lose that weight somewhere else on the bike. The situation would be the same with a dropper post - you'd have to lose the added weight somewhere else on the bike.
“The biggest thing is the weight factor because now you add 300-400 grams to the bike, so where are you going to lose that weight? Ultimately, you need to lose it on the frame or the wheels. That’s it, which means you need to get super light, once again pushing the boundaries there."
The cited issue is the extra weight of disc brakes, and having to lose that weight somewhere else on the bike. The situation would be the same with a dropper post - you'd have to lose the added weight somewhere else on the bike.
04-28-22, 11:55 AM
#27
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I think the issue here is CM doesn't like disc brakes for whatever reason. More importantly, he doesn't get much of a say in what he gets to ride. Even on his off days. He can log into BF and read(even discuss) in disguise all of the equipment topics we do every day. In the end though, he uses what his team/sponsors tell him to for the most part. He also has people constantly asking him for a statement on subjects like equipment opinions. "No comment" can't be used every time
Last edited by seypat; 04-28-22 at 11:59 AM.
04-28-22, 11:56 AM
#28
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Read the quote:
“The biggest thing is the weight factor because now you add 300-400 grams to the bike, so where are you going to lose that weight? Ultimately, you need to lose it on the frame or the wheels. That’s it, which means you need to get super light, once again pushing the boundaries there."
The cited issue is the extra weight of disc brakes, and having to lose that weight somewhere else on the bike. The situation would be the same with a dropper post - you'd have to lose the added weight somewhere else on the bike.
“The biggest thing is the weight factor because now you add 300-400 grams to the bike, so where are you going to lose that weight? Ultimately, you need to lose it on the frame or the wheels. That’s it, which means you need to get super light, once again pushing the boundaries there."
The cited issue is the extra weight of disc brakes, and having to lose that weight somewhere else on the bike. The situation would be the same with a dropper post - you'd have to lose the added weight somewhere else on the bike.
04-28-22, 01:06 PM
#29
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I have Koolstops in right now, but I only went to them because Shimano weren't available. I get the impression that most others are of a similar disposition. I'm not quite through the bedding-in phase, but I'm not sure that I'll be able to tell the Koolstops from the Shimanos; maybe wear rates will be different, but I'm thinking that the clamping power of hydraulic calipers might shrink the differences between pads in a way that rim brakes don't.
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04-28-22, 01:07 PM
#30
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04-28-22, 01:51 PM
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04-28-22, 02:04 PM
#32
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04-28-22, 02:20 PM
#33
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As I live in the non-racer world, I prefer discs and simply would not buy a rim-brake bike again...not that I would have many choices anyway unless I went super low end. I am sure some racers make valid points but it is too late and most racers are fine with them, it seems. Rim brakes are practically gone if I want a higher-end bike.
04-28-22, 02:31 PM
#34
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Froome is talking racing. Disc brakes only get you to the finish line faster if there are corners you need to brake for. The rest of the time they are slower in both weight and wind resistance. Wheel changes with disc can be a race wrecker. Often after a change, especially getting a generic wheel off the neutral service support, there is disk rub and a second wheel change or bike change is needed. Teams do their best to have their cars behind their key riders but a lot isn't under their control. They have one car and often riders in both the break up the road and in the main peloton. On narrow roads, they may be unable or simply banned by race officials from passing the peloton to support riders in the break.
So, as great as disc brakes are, the risk is there that you will not be able go get a good, fast wheel change when you need it. And if other riders hear with their radios that you have just gotten a slow change, they may well send their strongest rider to the front to drive the pace at insane speed the next 10 kilometers just so you don't get back on. That slow wheel change might have just cost you 5 minutes and all chances of an overall win.
And dropper posts? OK, weight. But in the right race, it could allow you to open a gap. They might also allow the flyweights to descend fast enough to not get dropped and therefore stay with a group of strong downhill and flat ground riders. Again, minor losses going uphill in exchange for a race saver downhill. Seconds spent to prevent minutes lost.
This stuff isn't about grams, wind tunnel watts and seconds lost, it's about having gear that actually supports the rider in a race. That deals with what actually happens in races. Rim brakes and quick releases stayed around so long because in race situations (ie the flats that will probably keep happening for a few more years; light fast rubber being that important) they work really well. 20 second rear wheel changes are the norm. Rider will have a front wheel off before the support car arrives. Any wheel works. (Well, the rear derailleur will probably need a touch of adjustment after a neutral service wheel but that can be done while moving and is the same issue, disk or rim brake.)
I don't particularly care for Chris Froome, but I totally get where he's coming from. Disc brakes don't help him win races and are likely to cost him, either in crucial time or loss of a teammate at a critical moment. This could cost him far more than the 30-60 seconds he might lose braking sooner on mountain descents.
So, as great as disc brakes are, the risk is there that you will not be able go get a good, fast wheel change when you need it. And if other riders hear with their radios that you have just gotten a slow change, they may well send their strongest rider to the front to drive the pace at insane speed the next 10 kilometers just so you don't get back on. That slow wheel change might have just cost you 5 minutes and all chances of an overall win.
And dropper posts? OK, weight. But in the right race, it could allow you to open a gap. They might also allow the flyweights to descend fast enough to not get dropped and therefore stay with a group of strong downhill and flat ground riders. Again, minor losses going uphill in exchange for a race saver downhill. Seconds spent to prevent minutes lost.
This stuff isn't about grams, wind tunnel watts and seconds lost, it's about having gear that actually supports the rider in a race. That deals with what actually happens in races. Rim brakes and quick releases stayed around so long because in race situations (ie the flats that will probably keep happening for a few more years; light fast rubber being that important) they work really well. 20 second rear wheel changes are the norm. Rider will have a front wheel off before the support car arrives. Any wheel works. (Well, the rear derailleur will probably need a touch of adjustment after a neutral service wheel but that can be done while moving and is the same issue, disk or rim brake.)
I don't particularly care for Chris Froome, but I totally get where he's coming from. Disc brakes don't help him win races and are likely to cost him, either in crucial time or loss of a teammate at a critical moment. This could cost him far more than the 30-60 seconds he might lose braking sooner on mountain descents.
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04-28-22, 02:41 PM
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Yeah I'm not saying you did anything wrong, I'm agreeing with you that this has no relevance to us. 🙂
04-28-22, 02:43 PM
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04-28-22, 02:49 PM
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As I live in the non-racer world, I prefer discs and simply would not buy a rim-brake bike again...not that I would have many choices anyway unless I went super low end. I am sure some racers make valid points but it is too late and most racers are fine with them, it seems. Rim brakes are practically gone if I want a higher-end bike.
I'd be interested in seeing a 2022 list of available high-end/race oriented road bikes with rim brakes. I'm guessing it's a very short list.
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04-28-22, 02:51 PM
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I'm to a point where I would question buying a kids bike with rim brakes.
04-28-22, 03:04 PM
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04-28-22, 03:49 PM
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probably one of the reasons the new DA brakes have greater clearance. my 9200 series DA bike has noticeably less disk rubbing after long hard descents or wheel changes.
04-28-22, 07:58 PM
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i assume the issue is not how long it takes under ideal circumstances but what happens when the alignment of the disk and caliper is off and it rubs? then you have to loosen the caliper bolts, brake, tighten the bolts? or maybe the pros have some secret sauce to prevent this.
probably one of the reasons the new DA brakes have greater clearance. my 9200 series DA bike has noticeably less disk rubbing after long hard descents or wheel changes.
probably one of the reasons the new DA brakes have greater clearance. my 9200 series DA bike has noticeably less disk rubbing after long hard descents or wheel changes.
But to the point of clearance and the DA calipers having greater clearance. That to me is an interesting and key point that could make this whole thing easier. Larger gap beteween the pads would be more forgiving in both installing the wheel and adjusting the brakes. Since I'm not an engineer, I wonder if there is a way to design the hydraulic system so a larger gap between the pads could still have the same engagement feel at the levers? That to me would be a huge selling point.
04-29-22, 03:19 AM
#44
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i assume the issue is not how long it takes under ideal circumstances but what happens when the alignment of the disk and caliper is off and it rubs? then you have to loosen the caliper bolts, brake, tighten the bolts? or maybe the pros have some secret sauce to prevent this.
probably one of the reasons the new DA brakes have greater clearance. my 9200 series DA bike has noticeably less disk rubbing after long hard descents or wheel changes.
probably one of the reasons the new DA brakes have greater clearance. my 9200 series DA bike has noticeably less disk rubbing after long hard descents or wheel changes.
04-29-22, 08:58 AM
#45
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Okay, pick one and send us a pic when you get it.....
https://www.theproscloset.com/collec...ice-descending
https://www.theproscloset.com/collec...ice-descending
04-29-22, 09:05 AM
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UCI should mandate a spec for brakes so everyone will be on the same playing field. Then the complainers would just be whining.
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04-29-22, 11:05 AM
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I regularly switch wheels on my Aspero between gravel and road wheels with two different brands of hubs as well as different rotors. I never have to adjust brakes, have anything rub, or re-index shifting. I’m sure that a team mech using same wheel, hub etc would experience the same.
04-29-22, 11:21 AM
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I regularly switch wheels on my Aspero between gravel and road wheels with two different brands of hubs as well as different rotors. I never have to adjust brakes, have anything rub, or re-index shifting. I’m sure that a team mech using same wheel, hub etc would experience the same.
Even when I had to adjust calipers, it took just a few minutes.
04-29-22, 11:30 AM
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I regularly switch wheels on my Aspero between gravel and road wheels with two different brands of hubs as well as different rotors. I never have to adjust brakes, have anything rub, or re-index shifting. I’m sure that a team mech using same wheel, hub etc would experience the same.
04-29-22, 02:17 PM
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I understand that Disk brake technology is an advancement in braking performance. But I feel like bikes overall have taken a step backwards to make this disk brake dream a reality. I don't spend a lot if time on long decent so it's not a big deal to me. Making my bike heavier is just to counterintuitive to me.