Koyote

Our little riding group here (6-8 people on a good night) has everything from a Cat 2 MTB'er to a guy who wears sneakers and likely hasn't lubed his chain in a dog's age. Everyone rides well, has fun, and we never tell each other what to do or what to purchase. That sort of "advice" seems to mostly happen on the interwebs.

When this reverse snobbery pops up on bf, I always wonder if it's motivated by envy or resentment -- are these folks unable to easily afford some of the nicer gear, and so feel a need to tell others that they're wasting their money? I know it's a bit of a cliche to assume this, but I always wonder what motivates this.

bikehoco

ha ha ha ha ha ha

Bald Paul

Only if you stop to get your drinks at the local dumpster.

The Chemist

Somebody has definitely never used one. It's a great tail light to start with, and once you've actually used the radar functionality you'll realize how much more aware it makes you of your surroundings.

Expensive? Yes. Waste of money? Most definitely not.

livedarklions

To be honest, that seems like a rather snobbish explanation of reverse snobbery.
I think the snobbery and the reverse snobbery really are the same thing--people who want to feel smarter/better/more serious than everyone else and so they pick up this trivial difference in attitude towards inanimate things as being a signifier.

Koyote

Yeah, I get you. What do you think? Why does the "advice" only seem to flow in one direction?

Polaris OBark

In some cases, I think it is motivated by the sincere belief that (for example) a $300 bike is all anyone really needs.

I ran into this on an audiophool forum a few years ago, in a much more extreme form. I was the one saying something analogous, i.e., that a few thousand dollars can buy you more than all the stereo you could ever possibly need, and that the rest is simply bling -- fancy cables don't really sound any better, but they are jewelry. The retort inevitably was that I was simply jealous because I didn't have the money to spend $10K on speaker cables, and if I pointed to double-blind experiments that illustrated the inability of anyone to distinguish them from cheap lamp cord or coat hanger wire, I was clearly incapable of appreciating the subjective subtleties in the music that could only be heard with a $50K system. (For the record, I am willing to admit really good speakers are needed.) These same folks thought it was crazy to use digital room correction/equalization software, as it destroyed the quality of the music.

Koyote

I was into audio gear when I was young. I once went to a high-end hi-fi shop looking for Monster Cable. After pricing out the amount I would need, I realized I couldn't afford it. The guy behind the counter looked around, made sure no one was in earshot, and then pointed to the plain old (heavily insulated) cable, which they stocked in several gauges. He pointed to the 12 gauge wire and, sotto voce, said "This is just as good, and it costs a lot less." Forty years later, that cable still connects my speakers to the system.

But I digress. Perhaps I didn't frame the question properly. I wonder why people wearing inexpensive jerseys feel compelled to tell others that they are wasting money, but the people wearing high end jerseys don't even try to persuade others to buy the more expensive stuff. I mean, if the snobbery and reverse snobbery are really the same thing (as per livedarklions ), then it seems like the advice would go in both directions -- but it doesn't. I don't care whether other people wear $20 jerseys. But some of those people, at least on bf, seem intent on telling the rest of us that we're wasting money. In other words, Polaris, it's the opposite of your audio forum example. I'm just wondering...What gives? At least the 'reverse snobbery born of economic necessity' explanation makes logical sense. But perhaps I am missing something.

LarrySellerz

I guess I just don't get why I would want or need to know that a car is approaching from behind. If its approaching in a way that I have to get out of the way/bail (literally never happened to me as far as I can remember) im sure I could just hear it with my ears.

LarrySellerz

The phenomenon of cyclists with lots of nice things telling cyclists with barely anything that they would do better with x/y/z is definitely real and a big reason roadies have an "elitist" reputation. Its not some online thing

Polaris OBark

Where I find the Garmin radar the most useful is where cars take me by surprise. So if I am going downhill with enough wind in my ears that I don't hear them approach, or if I am on a rural windy mountain road in the redwoods (where I live), it can really help. I have also come to realize that most of my conflicts with cars result from unexpected encounters. It gives me a heads-up, and I can then assess the situation and decide what evasive action, if any, might be required. The radar helps to remove the element of surprise. I try never to bike without it.

I do find it to be of considerably less use if I am in heavy traffic, because it is just beeping constantly.

Polaris OBark

Oy vey!

FWIW, here is what I use: https://www.bluejeanscable.com

Here is what the stereo people tried to sell me: https://mitcables.com
Pure consumer fraud.

Koyote

I don't even have a Varia mount on my around-town commuter bike. But, perhaps paradoxically, it is most useful out in the country, where vehicles are rarer. That's when I would otherwise be taken by surprise.

Maelochs

I saw that article where audiophiles used sections of coat hanger as speaker wire and got basically exactly the same results by every metric, as with the solid gold, diamond-plated, 2-inch diameter "I wouldn't play my music with anything less" cables. Sad and amusing.

I know riders who swear by the Varia .... but when I would need it most would be when it is least useful. I use a mirror now (my neck has gotten stiff with age) but it is in traffic that a car can sneak up on me, hiding among the other traffic noise, and with me using the mirror less because I have to watch whet is in the 270-degree arc ahead of me---And in that case the Varia is just a distraction with its constant beeping.

In any case, the Varia can only tell me a car is coming. Whether that car is in its lane or in mine, or is gong to swerve into me, or make a hard right turn after thinking it passed me .... the Varia is no use for all that. I suppose iof I had enough close calls with cars coming up form behind I would be more open to buying radar .... but if after all these years i am not convinced, I am not thinking I ever will be.

tomato coupe

X = a jersey
Y = a helmet
Z = both brakes

X + Y + Z ≠ elitist

elcruxio

It's perhaps a bit unproductive to cover audiophile stuff in the same discussion as cycling clothes. The whole cable stuff is snake oil but in terms of cycling jerseys (and clothes) there are many variables which do make a difference and are weighed by people who care about such stuff.

Fabrics are more complicated than just "it's polyester". There are varying yarn thicknesses, knit types, yarn densities, fabric layering which all affect the price of the fabric used. Some denser fabrics are more wind resistant, some looser fabrics are more breathable. However the bottom line is, as is in all clothes production, good fabrics are expensive. But if you're someone who views clothes as expendable and haven't actually used durable long lasting clothes made of good materials or haven't paid any attention to such, it's difficult to understand that there's something better on offer.

It needs to be said though that expensive =/= quality. Quality = quality, but you need to find it first and not just assume that price correlates in that direction. But the second rule of thumb is that the quality stuff is never cheap, because the fabrics/materials are never cheap.

the jerseys I favor are fairly expensive because there are properties I want which can't be achieved with cheap loose thick yarned fabrics. I want wind resistance in the front and breathability in the back. But I also want sun protection which requires some layering construction and again enough density and thin yarn to achieve that. Full sleeves naturally.

I've yet to find a $20 jersey that ticks even the wind resistance box. Hot sunshine and cold ocean winds are something you can't just put a jacket on.

indyfabz

As opposed to, say, your eyes?

That aside, under certain conditions, not all vehicles are audible. I think you know that. If you don't, you are not sufficiently in tune with your surroundings. I recommend dropping cycling and taking up something like golf in order to increase your life expectancy.

bruce19

CF wheels

livedarklions

Absolutely doesn't. I've had people come up to me at the LBS telling me how much I'm missing riding centuries without clipless shoes/pedals. Just happened to me a couple months ago. Similar things have also happened to me on the road with people "explaining" to me why I don't know what I'm missing by not wearing cycling gear. When I tell them how much riding I do and ask them how much experience they have riding centuries, the reactions are pretty comical. "Well, I've always wanted to" was the reaction in the bike shop. The. irony was amazing.

On BF, I've been told that I don't really ride, I don't know what I'm doing, people are posting about my attire in completely unrelated threads essentially daring me to post .
I've also been accused of being a reverse snob because I've posted that I've told people irl that they should just try riding first without buying a bunch of kit when they're balking at the investment they've been advised they "need to" put up for entry level, and that I was concerned this high price of entry was marketer driven and actually reducing the number of potential casual cyclists. In other words I was telling people who only wanted to invest a few hundred dollars into a bike that they probably weren't going to have problems doing a little riding in street clothes and not to believe people who were telling them not to start riding until they had spent several hundreds of dollars on kit or they were asking for disaster. My advice was to buy the bike, try riding it, and if you find you want the kit, you'll be able to buy it then, but that nothing terrible was going to happen if they rode without kit (as they had read and been told). Several bf posters accused me of reverse snobbery for this, discouraging people from getting the "right" gear, and of making up the use of "entry level" as a marketing term designed to upsell people.
Nowhere did I say that I had ever tried or would try to advise people not to buy something they wanted, only that I advised people who weren't willing to pay for that stuff that they should try riding without it. I think anyone who would call that "reverse snobbery" is revealing their own snobbery. Several people on bf did just that.
​​​​​

livedarklions

Larry is the extreme case, but I can tell you that I've encountered people riding a lot worse than me wearing fancy kit who had no problem advising me that I was wearing the wrong shirt/shoes/pants. I have never been told that by a cyclist who was riding faster or otherwise better than I was, which makes me think the "you need...." snob advice is largely a Dunning Kruger phenomenon. I think the reverse snobbery is that as well.

livedarklions

Comfort is such a subjective thing that I don't think there's any point in arguing who is right and wrong about whether this gear or that gear is more comfortable. If you're more comfortable in the more expensive jersey, why wouldn't it be worth more to you? The marginal aero gains might actually be measurable, but the value you put on that is purely subjective. In other words, people should buy according to their own preferences and stop telling others how to order their preferences.

Herzlos

For me it's mostly out of embarrassment about how much I spend on bike stuff. Like, if I'm riding with people on $100 bikes I'd rather downplay that I spent $200 on a new crankset and still risk getting dropped.

elcruxio

Where does comfort come into any of what I wrote?

Anyone can be comfortable in a loosely knit loose fitting cycling jersey. In fact I'd go as far as to state that the better more technical jerseys aren't nearly as comfortable, tt least initially.

Well I guess getting or not getting sunburn is a comfort issue since it does sting a bit. And getting melanomas cut out is definitely an uncomfortable experience.

I suppose freezing in the cold wind is also a comfort issue but then we can just devolve the discussion to who needs a shell jacket when you can (technically) survive in a $10 cotton hoodie.

Different clothes offer different properties for different conditions but so far I've found that the really cheap stuff tends to be a bit on the thin side in the properties department. Cheap athletc wear is designed with the mindset that doing sports gets you sweaty so wicking and fast drying, ie. cheap polyester is the material of choice. But things change a bit when you go from a indoors court to the outdoors where conditions sometimes require a bit more than wicking and fast drying.

WhyFi

I hear you, but I think that one also has to consider where the advice is coming from and who the advice is being given to.

I would wager that almost no one who prefers cycling specific attire popped out of the womb thinking, "I want to dress like a sausage." Instead, those people have largely gone through a phase of non-specific attire that lead them to their choice, so telling them that they're wasting their money on their attire is a different kind of arrogance. I would think that it's probably also a safe bet that most of those cyclists, with a preference for better quality and/or more expensive attire, went through a more frugal phase, as well, and found it lacking; telling them that "poly is poly," and insinuating that they're fools being parted from their money is, again, a special kind of arrogance.

At least the other direction can sometimes be tempered by the misguided enthusiasm of wanting to share potentially helpful knowledge with someone that they assume to be inexperienced (which can be a sign of their own inexperience). I mean, I feel like it's best to avoid giving unsolicited advice, but sometimes they mean well? *shrug* And that's not to say that I doubt that there are those out there that giving advice that comes from a different and all too smug place - aholes are gonna ahole - but I've been fortunate enough to mix with pretty chill folks and can't say that I've experienced that myself... then again, I'm moderately fast and extremely fashionable, so...

big john

I don't think I've ever experienced this and I'm usually the biggest Fred out there. I've been teased at times for wearing tattered leg warmers or drooping socks or jerseys with holes where the pockets are sewn on, but I can't recall anyone telling me I would ride faster with some other clothes/shoes/parts. Maybe they just think I'm a lost cause.