Prowler 

I’m no stove expert so have been lurking here. But the comment above reminded me that gas stations are getting more concerned about spills from “topping up” so are changing fuel hoses over to they types that will NOT dispense fuel unless they are fully jammed into the fuel tank neck. So we’re seeing places, and may see many more, where you could not get minute quantities of fuel at the pump. I’ll assume that most camping fuel bottles n stoves will not have openings large enough to accept those new nozzles.

And, though I cannot see the flow, my impression is that those nozzles cannot dribble out small quantities. Fully off or gushing or way gushing. Buyer beware.

staehpj1

Enforcement of either has been a non issue the few times I have purchased very small quantities or used non-standard containers. The first reason is probably that here most stations have attendents that are inside and you typically can pay at the pump. So by the time they could notice and say anything you are done if you are expiditious. The other reason is that they are likely to be low paid folks who really don't care. You do have the fact that you stand out as a cyclist going against your going unnoticed. You have the advantage of picking and choosing where and when you buy if you don't wait until you absolutely need the fuel. Also I figure the worst that will happen is that you get run off most likely after you get your bottle filled.

How will they stop you from charging less than $5 worth when you pay at the pump? Absolute worst case they might charge your card the $5, but that seems unlikely and you could probably dispute it with your credit card company (keep the receipt). Maybe if the minimum is posted at the pump they could charge you, but I haven't seen that. The whole notion of minimum purchases on a credit card were a common thing in the past, but have become less and less common to the point that a lot of folks carry no cash these days. That said I do tend to carry some cash and pay in cash in small businesses on tour to help them out in avoiding credit card charges..

Some folks have dribbled the remaining gas from the hoses whan the station was closed and pumps were off.. There is some risk you could be charged with theft for that I guess.

BTW, much of the worries about wasting fuel priming (or sometimes boil time) might be a big deal in some situations, but I don't see them as much concern in the typical touring situation. When you can get fuel frequently you just don't need to carry enough at a time for fuel efficiency to be a big deal. The same is true if you just carry a lot because you buy it in large quantities at a time and would carry the same amount regardles of your daily burn rate. Taking even twice as long to boil isn't really that big of a deal when preparing a meal for one or two people.

Similarly boil times just aren't a big deal unless you are melting snow for your water or boiling all your drinking water, but I don't see myself doing either on the typical tour.

Both can be a pretty big deal on some backpacking trips depending on the locale.

Tourist in MSN

I recall over the past decades a few times when there were gas shortages and stations or state govts proposed to make a minimum purchase requirement to get rid of the long lines of people that were constantly trying to top up their tanks. I recall that clearly because years ago when I commuted on a motorcycle with a 3 gallon tank there was a proposal that you should have to buy at least 5 gallons at a time to stop people from topping off their tank every day.

But I do not think anyone has actually proposed having a pump that can not be immediately shut off by the pump operator, as that would be a significant fire hazard if someone screwed up and started putting gas where it was not supposed to go.

I recall buying 15 cents of gas for my stove once because my touring partner could not stop laughing at my using a credit card at the pump for that purchase, he did not think it possible for a charge that small on a credit card.

I do not recall how much diesel I bought for my stove, but the bottle was no more than a liter size.

djb

And on a side note, I have a clear memory as a kid seeing an abandoned gas station in the country, with the price sign still reading 25 cents a gallon.

And this was for an imperial gallon that we use up here, so 4.55 liters, not the measly Yankee 3.8 liter gallon.

tcs

Three days after the first stations fitted nozzles with evaporative boots, these were on the market:

https://www.aerostich.com/gascard.html

https://www.mccuff.com/

Tourist in MSN

A couple years ago when it looked like Covid would collapse the economy and crude oil futures briefly traded at a negative price, a local gas station was charging $0.99 USD a gallon. I have a couple five gallon gas cans in storage that I now wish I would have filled at that price.

djb

​​​​​​
ya, I think I saw about 60 cents a litre in early 2020, so $2.30 cad per US gallon. And our gas prices have often been twice yours.

Charles Lathe

At the end of a cross country trip this summer, I was on the coast of Oregon and my final destination was Olympia, Washington. I needed more fuel for my MSR Dragonfly stove, but not much. Oregon has station attendants and I didn’t want to deal with that. I put my credit card in the pump and squirted some diesel into my fuel bottle. Looking into the bottle, I decided I wanted a little more. The diesel nozzle is a snug fit in the MSR fuel bottle neck. The attendant leaned over the pump and said,’No,no. You are not filling that here.” Why not?” “Because it is not an approved fuel container.” I showed him that it says Fuel Bottle right on the side. “Oh,” he said, “I’ve never seen one of those and I used to do a lot of bicycle touring.”

Just then a big RV pulled up to the other side of the pumps. It was raining and I had my yellow rain cape on. The attendant stepped over to the RV. I squeezed the nozzle handle just a tad too long. Fuel sprayed out of the bottle between the nozzle and the bottle neck. I was doused with diesel, the front of the pump was doused with diesel, and a rainbow sheen quickly spread across the wet asphalt. “Uh oh,” I thought, “This is going to be a major environmental disaster in an Oregon coastal town and I’m gong to be in big trouble.” The amount that spilled was probably minute, but since everything was wet from rain, it looked like a big mess to me.

I had to have some groceries and the grocery store was next to the gas station so I quickly grabbed my bike and fuel bottle and pushed the bike around to the far side of the grocery store and out of sight of the gas station attendant who was still filling the tank of the RV. Inside the grocery store, I thought I’d be asked to leave since I spelled like a tanker truck, but nobody said anything. I quickly got my groceries, slipped out the door to my bicycle, and loaded my pannier. As I pedaled away, I looked over my shoulder and saw to my relief that the gas station attendant was still busy with the RV.

I’ve long thought that Oregon’s insistence that you not fill your own tank is ridicules, but as I pedaled away, I had to admit that I had become the reason they don’t trust consumers with their pumps.

IPassGas

Did you find that diesel worked ok? After cleaning out the diesel, is the stove working as good as before diesel?

Charles Lathe

Yes, diesel works fine in the stove. I would say that white gas is the nicest, kerosene comes after that, then diesel. MSR says that gasoline is the worst choice and I haven’t tried that. I suspect that it is the alcohol in the gas that is bad for some types of O rings and plastics.

I have mostly run kerosene, but I just finished a ten day, nine night trip on Thursday and ran white gas in the stove.

indyfabz

One option is to ask people in campgrounds for white gas, or if you have the carrying capacity to look for a store or outfitter that will sell you a quart or a lesser quantity. Last year I stopped in Burlington, VT, at the end of the first day’s ride of a two-week trip. The Gear Exchange there filled my 32 Oz fuel bottle out on the sidewalk for not much money. I had taken Amtrak up to St. Albans the day before. It was 9/11 and didn’t want to travel with fuel because I thought security at the Philly train station would be thick. It was.

staehpj1

Did you change jets to burn the diesel or use the DG jet? I didn't see mention of changing jets. I know some folks who say they get by without changing jets with diesel or even kerosene in a pinch with their whisperlites. I'd imagine the dragonfly is similar.

Your comments on fuel made me wonder about what MSR might have said about gasoline and what the consequences of using it might be. So I dug up the manual for the dragonfly (below). FWIW, the language matches that in the manual that came with my whisperlite international. They mention clogging for all non white gas fuels and a vague mention that unleaded gasoline may shorten the stove lifespan with no mention of the mechanism. I'd be surprised if o rings weren't neoprene or nitrile either of which should stand up to alcohol, plus o rings are easily carried as spares and easily replaced. Perhaps they are referring to the plastic parts. I'd imagine that the shortening must not be very severe or they not rate the stove for using it at all.

From the dragonfly manual:

Tourist in MSN

If you try diesel, avoid diesel number 2. It has a higher flash point and higher vaporization temperature, both of which affect how easy it is to light the stove and how hot the stove has to be to vaporize the fuel in the stove so that the fuel can come out of the jet as a vapor. I tried some number 2 as that was the only diesel pump the station had and it worked terrible.

Number one has lower flash point and lower vaporization temperature than number 2. Number 1 is closer to kerosene in that regard.

Gas stations that serve a lot of diesel cars in urban areas likely have one diesel choice. In winter that is likely number 1, in summer it might be a mix of number 1 and 2.

Some stoves seem to be more capable of operating with a jet that is not the ideal jet size. My Primus Omnifuel is very picky on which jet is installed but my Optimus Nova uses the same jet for both white gas and kerosene. The fuel type has an ideal air to fuel ratio for combustion, the jet should be matched to that.

My Nova on kerosene, I had to disassemble the stove in a campsite that was far from anywhere to unclog some of the stove innards, there were some grooves in a needle jet that I had to clean the carbon out of with my knife. The stove filter also clogged, I replaced that with a bit of cotton fabric in a wad.

And on kerosene or diesel, you might have some soot on the bottom of your pots that you have to clean off if you do not want to transfer that soot to the stuff in your pack.

Yan 

Fuel availability is a top priority for you, yet you refuse to consider multi-fuel stoves??? I am perplexed.

Multi-fuel stoves are the gold standard in my opinion. Ultralight backpackers have an argument for using a miniature gas canister setups. Other than this, there is no justification for other stove types to exist.

Alcohol has low energy density so you end up carrying a ton of weight in fuel. It also don't work properly in cold weather and at high altitudes.

Gas canister stoves, you cannot buy fuel in most of the world. Automatic elimination for international travel.

When I travel internationally I cook with automobile gasoline exclusively. The additives smell bad, but nothing beats the convenience of getting fuel from gas stations. The problem with buying other fuel types such as mineral spirits and lighter fluid, etc, is that even when you do manage to find them, they tend to come in awkward container sizes. You fill your fuel bottle and end up with a bunch of leftover that you have to carry. Or you throw it out. The cost is also much higher when you are not using gasoline. One dollar of automobile gasoline lets you cook for a week.

staehpj1

--

gauvins

[I will eventually post an update once I've completed a few more tests.]

In the meantime, two things: (1) I'll almost certainly switch to an HX pot (widesea). I routinely achieve efficiencies above 80% (i.e. near boil of 2 cups of water on 3.5g of ISO butane / 11ml of methanol / 9ml of ethanol). (2) TSA allows up to 2L of hand sanitizer in checked luggage + 100ml as carry-on, which solves the fuel availability conundrum for most trips. At 10ml per near boil, twice a day, 2L of alcohol means 100 days of autonomy.

Tourist in MSN

You can have several 100ml bottles that fit into your quart sized ziplock baggie in carry on. I am guessing four, possibly five of the 100ml bottles will fit.

That said, security in Toronto told me that my USA sized ziplock was too big and they insisted that I put my little bottles into an official Canadian security ziplock. They were sure I would not get it all in, but it fit quite easily. My point is that there is an official size of zip lock bag for your small bottles in carry on.

I think I was picked out for special treatment, as I broke the rules. My toothbrush was also in the zip lock and the ziplock is only supposed to have liquids, not solid objects. I learned my lesson, toothbrush does not get packed with the toothpaste anymore.

gauvins

Yeah, Americans always go for BIG

I am curious -- were these bottles still factory sealed and labeled as hand sanitiser or generic (ex: transfilled into Nalgene)?

Tourist in MSN

Some of the bottles were plastic bottles without labels. Some were labeled and contained their original product (sunscreen, toothpaste in a tube and not a bottle). But there was no difficulty of having some plastic unlabeled bottles that were full of liquid, they did not ask what was in them. I might have also had some prescription pill bottles that no longer had pills in them, sometimes I use re-purposed prescription pill bottles for salad dressing if I bring any food along to eat on the plane and then I can discard them when empty. And those pill bottles raise another point, I am often surprised that they do not look at one of my bottles to see if there is a volume label on it to make sure it is not 101 ml as my pill bottles were not intended to hold liquids.

Your airline security agency should have a clear description of what is allowed.

Being from Canada, you should be careful if you pass through USA as we have a no knife policy where a tiny Swiss Army knife is allowed in Canada, or was the last time I was there. I think it was about five years ago I read that USA TSA was going to allow very small knives, I do not recall the specification. So, half a year later I do not bother removing my small Swiss Army knife from my key ring before I go to an airport. TSA said it was not allowed, I asked about the change in policy, they were clueless on what I was talking about so they got a manager over and he explained that TSA was going to do that but the airline flight attendant union objected, they did not want to have a political spat with the flight attendant union so they did not change their policy after all. And I lost my knife.

gauvins

​​​​​​I've stopped carrying SAKs as carry on after losing several at security over the years. From what I understand, they're allowed in Canada (1) as long as the blade is under 6 cms (2.4“), (2) you're not going through the US, (3) *** and the security officer concurs***.

Lots of confusion. Boarding for a local flight this spring, some personnel at the check in counter thought that small knives were prohibited in checked luggage as well. Staffing airlines post COVID brings unexpected moments of joy

gauvins

[Update: what I've learned]

1. Fuel supply is not a major problem.

• I've scanned CGOAB journals mentioning stoves, therefore fuel. Not rigorous nor exhaustive, but meaningful pattern. 30% refer to Jetboil by name, 30% gas, 30% alcohol (often Trangia) and 10% multi-fuel (often WhisperLite). Most journals refer to tours in more developed countries, yet one fairly recent account of a month-long tour of Ethiopia mentions a gas canister. References to multi-fuel tend to be old. (I just came across an interesting bikepacking route in Kenya. Guess what (the store is located here)
• It looks like in most countries, even less developed, canisters of some sort can be found in larger cities, often in stores catering to foreign tourists (as in the case that started me on this, in Northern India). Also perhaps worth noting that tourers in LDCs are more likely to spend the night indoors and eat prepared food rather than camp and cook from (often hard to find) groceries.
• MSR's page on fuel availability (written in 2014) suggests that liquid fuel, including alcohol can be found in more places than gas. In an emergency, alcohol stoves may be any kind of small can, with rocks or tent stakes in lieu of a pot stand.
• Esbit is becoming more and more problematic to source in North America.
• Alcohol's main, and perhaps decisive, advantage is that ethanol, in the form of hand sanitizer, can be carried in planes - up to 2 liters (quarts) in checked luggage and 300ml as carry-on. 1 liter carried on the bike is likely to be enough for a month-long solo trip.

2. I've spent (way too much) time and money purchasing and testing various systems. To wit, the table below showing estimated weight and packed size of various cooking systems. Among the things perhaps worth nothing:

• Alcohol systems are never a dominant solution. Esbit is just as efficient as methanol (AKA Heet), but an Esbit stove + stand is a mere 11g vs close to 100g for an alcohol system. Packed size of alcohol is also an issue since the bottle needed to carry the fuel is of fixed size.
• If Esbit is unavailable, gas becomes superior to alcohol for trips longer than a weekend.
• If Esbit is available, gas becomes superior for trips longer than 3 weeks.
• Heat exchange pots do improve efficiency, but the difference in packed size and weight is such that a smaller pot wins the day for trips of less than 3 months.
• I plan to switch from my current SnowPeak+Esbit system to the diminutive Toaks 550 ml or the bottom part of the Widesea HX. The Toaks wins on weight and packed size, albeit is perhaps pushing minimalism too far.
• Rova Flex Aerogel is a fantastic insulating material. Better than neoprene/silicone/vacuum.
• Thermometer stickers work well. It is unfortunate that the cheaper ones are meant to monitor aquarium/terrarium temperatures.

Notes:
(1) options in gray do not include a mug (i.e. pot only)
(2) Bundle acronyms list the type of fuel (E[sbit], A[lcohol], G[as]) and the pot (T[oaks], S[nowPeak], W[idesea], O[licamp])
(3) Trip length and liters per day can be modified to calculate a system's weight and packed size. Typical amount of water heated would be 1L/d/person. I use .6 in this example to reflect the fact that quite frequently I eat at a restaurant.
(4) Fuel consumption is based on a 60C degree rise (typically room temperature up to 80C/180F). Hot water is usually enough. I typically travel during summer such that a starting temperature of 20C makes sense. Simple to adjust by increasing the amount of water heated
(5) The score is weighted 50-50 on packed size and weight. The dominant option on one metric scores 1 on that metric, and the worst scores zero.
(6) It has been a captivating exercise. Eye opener WRT the impact of pot size and efficiency of a gas system vs alcohol.

Yan 

1 litre of alcohol lasts you a month? What's the total burn time on that?

On a liquid fuel stove burning gasoline, 1L gets about five hours of burn time at full power. If stretched over a month that works out to only ten minutes a day. You'd have to be eating out a lot for that to last a month.

Keep in mind gasoline has 70% higher energy density than alcohol. You have to expend a lot more weight in alcohol to boil the same amount of water. A gasoline burning stove (i.e. I use an Optimus Nova) boils 1L of water in 3.5 minutes. A Trangia alcohol stove takes 9 minutes.

I just took a quick look on Amazon for denatured alcohol / rubbing alcohol / ethanol and the cheapest I could find was $14 per liter. Large (450g) gas canisters are $11. Gasoline is under $1 per liter. It's not a big deal, but still, after a while the cost difference starts to add up.

The downside of a gasoline stove is that the stove itself weighs more, about 500g. An MSR Pocket Rocket gas stove weighs only 73g.

gauvins

Testing -- I am new to alcohol stoves -- I routinely got temperature rise of 60C (from 20C to 80C) for 500ml of water on 10ml of methanol with a Toaks Siphon stove and HX pot (Widesea or Olicamp), in about 4 minutes. That would nominally translate to 100 near-boils per litre of methanol, i.e. 50 days. Now, factor in evaporation, wind and such... there's still a comfortable margin. Almost certainly a month, with room to spare. Factor in restaurants and I can perhaps ride a whole summer

No magic here. I've spent entire summers on Esbit tablets and was typically able to get enough hot water on a pair of 4g tablets, the almost exact equivalent of 10ml of methanol in terms of energy potential.

WRT price, yep. Ethanol prices have gone through the roof, probably due to COVID and because ethanol is used as a gasoline additive. HEET (methanol) is 3.49 / 12oz on Amazon. Methyl hydrate as it is called here, is $5 / L at the nearby hardware store. Which translates to 10 cents per day... (roughly the same as gas, and 10 times cheaper than Esbit)

WRT Whisperlite. You mention the weight -- I do not care so much about weight. I focus more on packed size. The major problem I have with multi-fuel systems is that the stove doesn't nest in a small pot; you run the risk of confiscation by an overzealous TSA agent; you have to find a solution for the fuel bottle (ex: buy a new bottle at home and dispose of it prior to your return flight or spend a night trying to get rid of the kerosene smell). In comparison, the BRS gas stove weighs 26g and the Toaks alcohol stove weighs 20g.

For groups, in particular in winter, multi-fuel stoves make perfect sense. The economics is favorable and you can amortize the weight/size/priming rigmarole over a long runtime. For solo summer touring, I'll take a pass.

indyfabz

Never knew there is so much angst over camp stove fuel costs.

gauvins

indyfabz No angst. Well I don't think so. Just something I've looked at this past month. WRT fuel cost, it is, perhaps, becoming an issue with Esbit ($2/day). Gas, alcohol, gasoline are all inexpensive. TBH, I've spent more on stoves/pots/whatnots than any kind of savings I could hope to make with an efficient system. Still an affordable hobby