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70s Worksop Raleigh Team Professional in US/France - different 531 frame tubes/gauges

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70s Worksop Raleigh Team Professional in US/France - different 531 frame tubes/gauges

Old 07-30-22, 11:54 AM
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JackJohn
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70s Worksop Raleigh Team Professional in US/France - different 531 frame tubes/gauges

Hi,

As an intro, what we’re talking about here are Worksop built Team Professional frames in the team colors, not SBDU.

I’m interested in a local Ad with what I believe is a Raleigh Team Professional frame coming with a Campy Record headset and adjustment screws (just FYI price is 170$). It is a Worksop ‘79 model, full Reynolds, with Campy dropouts and cut out lugs and BB.

Checking on the web the Team Pro timeline and the US catalogues I can’t find exactly the same decals, although the Team Pro does not appear in the ‘77-78-79 ones. However, I could find something very similar in the French catalogues, which, being in France, makes sense (btw : French catalogues are rare but useful to identify some European market models like the ‘78 “French” Team Record I have or the Competition with the stylized Carlton decals).

I try to understand the differences between these two top range frames, Team Pro and Team Record beyond their equipment. Attached are some French catalog pics from 1976, end of ‘70s and maybe ‘78 (acknowledgment to the forum Tontonvelo for these). Both frames are all Reynolds 531 5/10, but the Team Pro is described as “reinforced” and “ultra-light”, what does it mean? The Team Pro comes with lightened dropouts and BB and from the pics I can confirm that they are different from the Team Record. What else can differ in tubing? Or maybe geometry? The Team Pro frame in the Ad is described as 50cm c-c for the seat tube and 54cm for the TT, not exactly a compact design.

So I was looking at the US catalogs for some clues on the Team Pros. They are only shown until ‘75 along the Professional MK IV (then they disappear until popping up again in 1982 in the UK catalogs as Team Replica). While in ‘74 the two look identical and are described in the same way, in ‘75 with they don’t: the Pro MK IV mentions frame geometry as “lively and responsive” and that a “special configuration of the rear triangle gives added rigidity”, chainstays are described as “rapid taper”. From the images, seatstays indeed are different. What is the difference in real life and why they’re not the same?

In ‘77 (then ‘78 and ‘79) no trace of the Team Pro and the introduction of the new Professional MK V, with new tubing, lug sets, seat cluster and brazed on fittings, the catalogs mentioning “Haden forged lightweight crown, Haden lightweight lugs with window cut outs and short wheelbase for maximum maneuverability”.

Beyond these “details” (are they?) however, compared with the second in line Competition GS, they both share “Reynolds 531 butted tubes, forks & stays with Campagnolo dropouts, Reynolds 531 taper gauge blades with Campagnolo fork ends”. Again, where is the difference in real life for the two frames if they have the same tubes?

Now, it’s interesting to note that in the ‘78 (?) French catalog the Team Pro is called the “new” Pro MK V. And the frame from the Ad resembles a lot to the pro MK V described in the US catalogs: lugs, cut outs, seat cluster, brazed fittings. The only doubt remains about geometry, but I can’t check it.

Thanks a lot to the Raleigh experts for helping in trying to make clarity and positioning this frame within the Raleigh universe.


The frame from the Ad

‘78 (?) French Catalog

End ‘70s French Catalog

‘76 French Catalog
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Old 07-30-22, 02:06 PM
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There was a precedent of "team replica" bikes in Europe at subordinate price points
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Old 07-30-22, 02:35 PM
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I never put too much faith in catalogs. Catalogs are sent to printers months or even a year in advance. Production changes are made that will never appear in catalogs. In addition, many companies had inventory management problems, so. they would use what they had in hand rather than what the catalogs showed.
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Old 07-30-22, 05:43 PM
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Dont; think I can help determine which year that Team is, but it seems certainly to be 'team', not 'record'.
The Team and the Pro from Mk Iv onwards came with 'Continental Ovalized Fork Blades', this was incorporated in the later 70's (77 onward ? maybe).
Was a retort to the increasing demand for 'Columbus' which had the larger section oval fork blade.
Here was a post in BF with some fork blade info - https://www.bikeforums.net/15834363-post1.html
Both the 'Team' and the Pro Mk IV and later had the 'continental oval' fork blades.
I had and rode the MK iv for 2 seasons - nice bike, but was a bit too big for me...
I also had a Comp GS which I used when I went on 'work travel' (not bike race travel...) had that for 4 yrs, until United Air crushed it in Denver Stapleton airport... got a nice Guerciotti to use for travel in exchange...
Comp GS, was butted 531, but a heavier gauge, NOT Campy dropouts, dropouts had racks bosses on both the front and rear dropouts. Chrome bits and half chrome blades and stays...
was heavier, more wheelbase (chainstay and fork rake), no cutout on the BB, generally was considered more relaxed geo in that time. A nice bike, not handbuilt like the Pro and Team.
You're pics would lead me to believe that is a Team bike.
One question, in general, I have. If it is sourced from French 'stock', would Raleigh have configured it with 'French' BB threading, or would it have BSA?
Sorry I can't peg it better. I did have a few friends who rode for a Raleigh equipped team, so I did see the bike quite often... LOL!
Ride On
Yuri
EDIT: Round blades were almost exclusively used for track.
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Old 07-30-22, 07:34 PM
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That frame looks just like my 1978 Professional other than paint. I think it was just painted the team color for a different market over there. Raleigh had different bikes available in Europe than the States. I am still building mine but I hear the Mark V is the best of the Pro’s.

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Old 07-31-22, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by cyclezen
both the 'team' and the pro mk iv and later had the 'continental oval' fork blades.
​​​​​​interesting, thanks, if I do purchase the frame I’ll check for differences vs the Team Record
Originally Posted by cyclezen
comp gs, was butted 531, but a heavier gauge
I assume (quite arbitrarily) that the differences between the Pro and Comp GS in the US should roughly match those between the Team Pro and the Team Record in France, given the very similar specs. Maybe a silly question about Reynold tubes, but if they’re all 531 stays, fork and butted tubes, and specifically 5/10 for those in France, why some models are heavier gauge? In the catalogs the tubing definitions are the same, but the Pro is lighter and reinforced, so there is a difference but where does it come from?

Originally Posted by cyclezen
not handbuilt like the pro and team.
​​​​​​ok, so Pros and Team were hand built, which indeed is a difference…
Originally Posted by cyclezen
you're pics would lead me to believe that is a team bike.
One question, in general, i have. If it is sourced from french 'stock', would raleigh have configured it with 'french' bb threading, or would it have bsa?
Exact, it really looks like a Pro Team and MK V, catalogs prove it existed. And your’re right to point out the bb threads: the Team Record has a French BB, the Team Pro in the Ad is said to be BSC.
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Old 07-31-22, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Kabuki12
That frame looks just like my 1978 Professional other than paint. I think it was just painted the team color for a different market over there. Raleigh had different bikes available in Europe than the States. I am still building mine but I hear the Mark V is the best of the Pro’s.
Thanks for the info. I agree that some models were European specific, that’s why I spent so much time in trying to find French catalogs. If this Team Pro in the Ad is a MK V I’m reassured. But the specified geometry still puzzles me and I can’t check, 50 ST and 54 TT c-c. Is your model more compact than that, as one would expect from a Pro?
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Old 07-31-22, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by JackJohn
Thanks for the info. I agree that some models were European specific, that’s why I spent so much time in trying to find French catalogs. If this Team Pro in the Ad is a MK V I’m reassured. But the specified geometry still puzzles me and I can’t check, 50 ST and 54 TT c-c. Is your model more compact than that, as one would expect from a Pro?
I will measure it when I get home. It is a tall frame 64 I believe. It seems like a very tight geometry. Same lugs as the one in the pictures.



I plan to finish building it up in its present state , ride it for a while and then have it painted to original spec, although it would be cool to have it in the Team colors! Joe
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Old 07-31-22, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JackJohn
Thanks for the info. I agree that some models were European specific, that’s why I spent so much time in trying to find French catalogs. If this Team Pro in the Ad is a MK V I’m reassured. But the specified geometry still puzzles me and I can’t check, 50 ST and 54 TT c-c. Is your model more compact than that, as one would expect from a Pro?
short frames almost always were longer than the should have been for the typical rider.
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Old 07-31-22, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by JackJohn
​​​​​​interesting, thanks, if I do purchase the frame I’ll check for differences vs the Team Record

I assume (quite arbitrarily) that the differences between the Pro and Comp GS in the US should roughly match those between the Team Pro and the Team Record in France, given the very similar specs. Maybe a silly question about Reynold tubes, but if they’re all 531 stays, fork and butted tubes, and specifically 5/10 for those in France, why some models are heavier gauge? In the catalogs the tubing definitions are the same, but the Pro is lighter and reinforced, so there is a difference but where does it come from?
​​​​​​ok, so Pros and Team were hand built, which indeed is a difference…

Exact, it really looks like a Pro Team and MK V, catalogs prove it existed. And your’re right to point out the bb threads: the Team Record has a French BB, the Team Pro in the Ad is said to be BSC.
I had, many years back, a published booklet, which spec'd out al the different variations of Reynolds bike tubing. I no longer have it (can't find it...) - I have kept quite some extensive written articles on bikes from the 70's and early 80's, but can;t seem to find the Reynolds booklet. I can't give exact specs, but fairly certain about the 'Team' being different, there also was an overlap, when 753 was into'd , and you could get 'team' frames in both 531 & 753.
Team vs 'Record' (team) - the 'team record' is actually just a cosmetic remake of the 'Record' - 531 straight gauge main tubing, , regular dropouts with eyelets, and usually mid-level components, but it did have more 'race' geometry, it was a level below the Comp GS in the product line. Was a way for Raleigh to market a 'beginner racer' at a bit more premium than the std 'record'.
Ride On
Yuri
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Old 07-31-22, 03:45 PM
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So I measured my tall Mark V that I am building and it is 25” c-c seat tube and 23” c-c top tube. In other words , just about perfect for my looong legs and short torso. I’m only just over 6’ tall but have a 35” inseam.
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Old 07-31-22, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclezen
I had, many years back, a published booklet, which spec'd out al the different variations of Reynolds bike tubing. I no longer have it (can't find it...) - I have kept quite some extensive written articles on bikes from the 70's and early 80's, but can;t seem to find the Reynolds booklet. I can't give exact specs, but fairly certain about the 'Team' being different, there also was an overlap, when 753 was into'd , and you could get 'team' frames in both 531 & 753.
Team vs 'Record' (team) - the 'team record' is actually just a cosmetic remake of the 'Record' - 531 straight gauge main tubing, , regular dropouts with eyelets, and usually mid-level components, but it did have more 'race' geometry, it was a level below the Comp GS in the product line. Was a way for Raleigh to market a 'beginner racer' at a bit more premium than the std 'record'.
Ride On
Yuri
I have a ‘77 Competition GS and it is a fairly tight geometry . The only thing I didn’t like was the rear derailleur which I changed to a NR unit. The bike is light and lively, it will be interesting to see the difference when I get my Pro on the road…… I think the Competitions were popular with the club racers, no matter , I’m old and slow!
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Old 07-31-22, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kabuki12
I have a ‘77 Competition GS and it is a fairly tight geometry . The only thing I didn’t like was the rear derailleur which I changed to a NR unit. The bike is light and lively, it will be interesting to see the difference when I get my Pro on the road…… I think the Competitions were popular with the club racers, no matter , I’m old and slow!
I also had both... liked them both... but Pro in 24 was just a bit too big, Comp GS in 23.5 was a much better fit, otherwise it rode v-nice. And held up well in a soft bike bag (with lotsa foam panels) on many flights... Sad when United made the wheelbase shorter... hard to do when the bike didn't have wheels mounted... LOL!
Ride On
Yuri
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Old 07-31-22, 04:25 PM
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Interesting discussion. I would think the team bike would have the thinner gauge “professional” 531 tubing and the other the “standard” gauge 531. Here is some Reynolds info Reynolds Tubing Catalogs/Manuals
As others have said, Raleigh catalogs did not always match what was produced. Also remember they were generally written by marketing people.
As for reinforcements, I’ve seen some brake bridges and fork crown lugs that had a greater area of contact thus “ reinforced.” Could it be something like this?


Last edited by Slowride79; 07-31-22 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 07-31-22, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Slowride79
Interesting discussion. I would think the team bike would have the thinner gauge “professional” 531 tubing and the other the “standard” gauge 531. Here is some Reynolds info Reynolds Tubing Catalogs/Manuals
As others have said, Raleigh catalogs did not always match what was produced. Also remember they were generally written by marketing people.
As for reinforcements, I’ve seen some brake bridges and fork crown lugs that had a greater area of contact thus “ reinforced.” Could it be something like this?
There ya go!
Thanks for posting this!
Ride On
Yuri
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Old 08-01-22, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
short frames almost always were longer than the should have been for the typical rider.
Thanks, do you refer to foot/wheel clearance when steering on small sized frames? I was able to measure and check differences between some French and Italian small frames - the former having the TT a few cm longer than the ST, the latter being more squared - but expected the most racing Raleigh model to be more compact… 4cm difference seems weird, will check with the seller if I can get in touch…
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Old 08-01-22, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Kabuki12
So I measured my tall Mark V that I am building and it is 25” c-c seat tube and 23” c-c top tube. In other words , just about perfect for my looong legs and short torso. I’m only just over 6’ tall but have a 35” inseam.
ok thanks
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Old 08-01-22, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cyclezen
I had, many years back, a published booklet, which spec'd out al the different variations of Reynolds bike tubing. I no longer have it (can't find it...) - I have kept quite some extensive written articles on bikes from the 70's and early 80's, but can;t seem to find the Reynolds booklet. I can't give exact specs, but fairly certain about the 'Team' being different, there also was an overlap, when 753 was into'd , and you could get 'team' frames in both 531 & 753.
interesting, txs

Originally Posted by cyclezen
Team vs 'Record' (team) - the 'team record' is actually just a cosmetic remake of the 'Record' - 531 straight gauge main tubing, , regular dropouts with eyelets, and usually mid-level components, but it did have more 'race' geometry, it was a level below the Comp GS in the product line. Was a way for Raleigh to market a 'beginner racer' at a bit more premium than the std 'record'.
Ride On
Yuri
maybe in the US, but the “Record” frames were different beasts in Europe. The French Record/Team Record was second in line after the Professional. I have one and can confirm it is all Reynolds 531 and has butted tubes, 27.2 seatpost, Campagnolo dropouts and fork ends. And the target was not the beginning racer but the top level amateur competition. The only drawback was its equipment, a strange mix of different components just to keep price reasonable I suppose.
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Old 08-01-22, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Slowride79
Interesting discussion. I would think the team bike would have the thinner gauge “professional” 531 tubing and the other the “standard” gauge 531. Here is some Reynolds info Reynolds Tubing Catalogs/Manuals
As others have said, Raleigh catalogs did not always match what was produced. Also remember they were generally written by marketing people.
As for reinforcements, I’ve seen some brake bridges and fork crown lugs that had a greater area of contact thus “ reinforced.” Could it be something like this?
Excellent, very useful information. So if I understand, there were different gauges for 531 tubing. In the ‘80s decals seem more detailed about their specs, but what about in the ‘70s? Did lighter or heavier gauge butted 531 come with the same standard decal? How to know which where what? In any case that would explain a lot…! but still, why are both described 5/10, what does it mean?
Concerning the bridge reinforcement, yes it could definitely be, the Team Pro has it, the Team Record not.
Confirming these points would explain the “ultra-light” and “reinforced” differences….!
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Old 08-01-22, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by JackJohn
interesting, txs
maybe in the US, but the “Record” frames were different beasts in Europe. The French Record/Team Record was second in line after the Professional. I have one and can confirm it is all Reynolds 531 and has butted tubes, 27.2 seatpost, Campagnolo dropouts and fork ends. And the target was not the beginning racer but the top level amateur competition. The only drawback was its equipment, a strange mix of different components just to keep price reasonable I suppose.
maybe...
I helped part-time, at a Raleigh dealer (riding friend) for a summer, back in 79. He sold a bunch of Records, and they all were mostly the same livery. Frame was straight 531, with dropout eyelets, and no braze-ons like BB cable guides. Nice bike for a general purpose ride.
I would check to see what the 'Record' was in the UK, and expect most other markets would also follow suit.
did a quick google, because mixed product lines, from large manufacturers, would have been very unusual, even though the US market was in it's bike boom. There were some bikes which came through with varying components, which was expected given changing availability of parts during those hey-day times. Richard, the bike shop owner, was happy to get anything, regardless of parts... I know quite a few were received with Normandy hubs - which, of course, were French threaded Hubs...
'found' this resale of a Record -Team paint, in europe...
It would be very interesting to see a 'Record' which is at the level of the top of Line Frames. - maybe I'll look/google for some Raleigh info for the UK...
Ride on
Yuri
EDIT: WOW! Quick Find, Raleigh in France 1978, was this where you found your reference?
https://thevintagetoyadvertiser.org/...talogue-1970s/
and yes, the 'Record' was more upgraded in components in France, compared to what was in the US - mostly mid/beginning 'performance' level stuff, but he frame looks the same ... sewups and presta being a much more common livery in Europe. When I went to Europe in the mid/late 70's you could get some decent mid-grade training sewups for about $5 US - would buy a dozen and bring back to US - same tire which cost $15-$20 in US.
Anyway, I think having a frame in hand to review, would surely confirm the actual level of frame...
Ride On
Yuri

Last edited by cyclezen; 08-01-22 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 08-01-22, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JackJohn
Thanks, do you refer to foot/wheel clearance when steering on small sized frames? I was able to measure and check differences between some French and Italian small frames - the former having the TT a few cm longer than the ST, the latter being more squared - but expected the most racing Raleigh model to be more compact… 4cm difference seems weird, will check with the seller if I can get in touch…
in the 70's the UCI rules really goofed things up for smaller riders. Today's dimension limits allow for "toe clip overlap" They also measure "front center" differently than a bike shop does along a line between the BB spindle center and the front wheel axle. The UCI measures a line parallel to the ground. (how a number of custom framebuilders do, really depends on how the jig is set up.) Richard Sachs measures the UCI way last he explained it.
Not sure the evolution of the rules, the UCI is always refining them but does not have an archive I could easily find on the history.
Also, in the 70's the official language of the UCI was French, they did not supply translations.
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Old 08-01-22, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclezen
EDIT: WOW! Quick Find, Raleigh in France 1978, was this where you found your reference?
https://thevintagetoyadvertiser.org/...talogue-1970s/
and yes, the 'Record' was more upgraded in components in France, compared to what was in the US - mostly mid/beginning 'performance' level stuff, but he frame looks the same ... sewups and presta being a much more common livery in Europe. When I went to Europe in the mid/late 70's you could get some decent mid-grade training sewups for about $5 US - would buy a dozen and bring back to US - same tire which cost $15-$20 in US.
Anyway, I think having a frame in hand to review, would surely confirm the actual level of frame...
Ride On
Yuri
Yes, I had seen this site.
The French Team Record popped up on C&V a few times, you can check this thread where verktyg provides more detailed information on this model. I found three full French catalogs on the French Tontonvelo forum, that’s were the screenshots of the Team Pro and Team Record were taken in my first post.
Finally, look at these pictures of my Team Record, definitely a high end frame, at least equivalent to the Competition GS in the US.



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Old 08-01-22, 04:57 PM
  #23  
JackJohn
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Originally Posted by repechage
in the 70's the UCI rules really goofed things up for smaller riders. Today's dimension limits allow for "toe clip overlap" They also measure "front center" differently than a bike shop does along a line between the BB spindle center and the front wheel axle. The UCI measures a line parallel to the ground. (how a number of custom framebuilders do, really depends on how the jig is set up.) Richard Sachs measures the UCI way last he explained it.
Not sure the evolution of the rules, the UCI is always refining them but does not have an archive I could easily find on the history.
Also, in the 70's the official language of the UCI was French, they did not supply translations.
didn’t know all this, interesting. I suppose the UCI rules applied to all frame builders. Having measured a Peugeot PS10 50/53cm ST/TT and an Atala 50/51cm, to obtain the same result is it correct to conclude that different trade offs were made between TT length and fork rake? And that Raleigh decided to go mostly on TT length even on top racing models?
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Old 08-05-22, 10:10 AM
  #24  
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Did lot of research over the last days to try to understand the potential differences in Reynold tubes and their use on high end Raleigh models in the late 70s.

After reading lots of infos here on BF and on other websites, and after looking at late 70s catalogs/reviews for both the international and French markets, I tried to summarize what was the Reynolds offering in terms of butted tubes, and what tubes Raleigh used for their first two high end models, in particular: the Professional MK V and Competition GS in the US; the Team Pro and the Team Record in France. I used the year 1978 as a sample year for comparison.

Below is a table with Reynolds main butted tubing before and during the 70s, for both international and French markets. In France tubes were imported by M. Dupieux and used a different description as “tenths” of mm, so 5/10e meant .5mm or 24 gauge in SWG. Hence, when it says .8/5, it means .5mm for the thin section and .8mm for the butted section, be it Double Butted or Single Butted, corresponding to a 21/24 gauge. I tried to match and write down both standards for more clarity.

Looking at international catalogs, after using for a while a single combination of .8/5 for TT/ST and .9/6 for the DT, in the early 70s Reynolds made some changes and introduced the 1/7 option. It is my understanding that under the same 531 green decal, Reynolds proposed different gauges, e.g. 1/7 “or” .8/5 (19/22 or 21/24) for the TT and ST. I don’t know what the “or” meant, if frame builders could pick the one they wanted, nor how a bike owner could possibly know which tubes he/she had just looking at the green decal.

In the same years (1972) in France, the same tubes were labeled differently: Light, Extra-Light and Special Super-Light. The two first should correspond to the “or” options above, but gauges were slightly different, while the third option might refer to a legendary .3mm (28) thin section whom (according to a 1970 Le Cycle publication by Daniel Rebour) M. Dupieux claimed he was the exclusive distributor worldwide (and those asking Reynolds to have such tubes were answered they did not exist). Here again, I couldn’t find other decals than those 531 in green, making it hard to identify the exact tube gauges for a bike.

In the second half of the 70s, a distinction appeared between 531 butted tubes (green decal), 531SL (red) and 753. On international catalogs, two options were still available for the standard butted tubes. On French documents, however, just one option was mentioned for standard tubes, and there were slight differences in gauge for the three categories.

Getting back to Raleigh and the 1978 US models, both the Professional MK V and the Competition GS are described as lightweight Reynolds 531 double butted tubes, forks and chainstays with Campagnolo fork ends, with both having the same 531 green decal. So apart from lugs and potential geometry differences (no specs available, but the Pro says “racing geometry and short wheelbase“ while the GS mentions “style and comfort”), there is no way to spot any difference in frame/tubing and we might conclude there’s none. However, it would also be reasonable to think lighter tubes could have been used for the Pro model given the two Reynolds gauge options for the standard green tubes.

As per the French models, both the Team Pro and the Team Record share the same full Reynolds 531 butted tubes green decal and are described as 5/10e. This sole number may refer to the ST, but does not provide any further information. The respective description Extra-Light Reinforced and Light may correspond to different gauges for the standard 531 butted tubes (before the introduction of the 531SL), which would logically make the Pro lighter than the Record. Oddly, however, the third model in the catalog, the Competition, is also said to be full 531 5/10e, but with no mention to lightness, making it harder to position each model in the Reynolds range. To complicate things further, these models, described in French standards, were built in England. So it could simply be that Raleigh mixed tubes to respect a hierarchy, without providing detailed information, none in any case that may have survived.

All this to say the tubing gauge difference question between high end models in the US and France remains unclear and I cannot find any more information to answer that.

It would be very appreciated if the many Reynolds/Raleigh specialists and bike historians here could share their thoughts and provide some clues on this matter. Many thanks!!!




Sources:

https://kuromori.home.blog/reynolds-531/

https://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_raleigh_cat_78.html

https://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11755

https://forum.tontonvelo.com/viewtop...=4108&start=45

https://www.bikeforums.net/21466910-post21.html

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/s...ge-d_1779.html
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Old 08-05-22, 09:06 PM
  #25  
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I thought that only SBDU frames could officially be called 'Team Professional'. All others were wannabe's.
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