chas58

I have struggled with this question a bit. I'm not sure there is a good answer for everyone.

15mph is way too slow where I ride. Heck, I built a bike like that once, and never ended up using much of the battery because I was way faster than the motor.
20mph is probably reasonable with a modest power motor.
28mph is a great advantage when I ride on roads with a 25mph speedlimit (because anything under 30 is seen as a hazard by motorists).

I can (and have) done 25 on an empty MUP with no motor (in a group). But this is beyond stupid on a trail with any traffic - Fortunately in the last years we've been successful at keeping our group rides to 17mph or less on the trail (and ramp up once we get to dirt roads).

Above 20, it becomes a skill issue, and you can't regulate that

One thought is to have bikes unregulated below 350 watts. But at 750 watts (which is about 3x what a strong biker can do) & 28mph is pretty fast for the casual cyclist - especially given that those bikes are typically ~75+ lbs. That is really encroaching on moped territory.

The original California standard (which was based on the European standard, but modified for US conditions) is a decent compromise. Those poor sods in the UK limited to ~15mph - I don't know how they can stand it.

Calsun

The tobacco industry kills more than 440,000 Americans each and every year but it is unregulated. Organophosphate pesticides generate cancers in millions of Americans but they are not regulated. In all of New York city there were 270 pedestrians injured by bicyclists and 60,652 injured by motorists. Where do you really think the attention should be focused?

The problem with too many pedestrians is that they are busy chatting or checking text messages and not watching where they are moving and they will walk in front of a car or a bicyclist or stand still in the middle of the bike path. A 1-2 mph pedestrian is going to be a problem regardless of the speed of the bicyclist.

In the 1970's some dumb people in Palo Alto decided to make it a city ordinance that all bicyclists had to ride on the sidewalks. A person leaving a building or exiting their car is not expecting a bicyclist to be pedaling past and so there were many injuries thanks to the city fathers who were clueless. We still do something just as stupid with bike lanes that are placed right beside auto parking on the streets. When the motorist opens their car door it is rare when they look for a bicyclist and equally rare that when they see a bicyclist that they wait until that person has gone past their car before opening the door.

Want to make the world safer then ban the use of cell phones on bike paths and in cars by drivers and enforce the law. In California the law is that motorists must be hands free but this law is never ever enforced by any LEO at any time.

willibrord

As others have pointed out, there are laws and there is enforcement. Or maybe not.
With car traffic on roads visible enforcement, cop cars with flashing lights, are more effective on reducing speeds than speed cameras, where you get a ticket in the mail a month later.
With bike paths it has to be the same it has to be visible.
There will always be some who speed, but ebikes give the capability to go very fast to every Tom, Dick and Harry.
The pathways are bad enough with wannabe Tour de France dunderheads everywhere, they will be so much worse when Grandpa can go 30 on his cruiser.

Make the mini motorbikes stay on the road where they can do less harm.

Leisesturm

Unless I way miss my guess, what the majority of those posting here (non e-bike owners) want is technology that will really limit the top speed of e-bikes to whatever responsible speed their imagination allows. Some kind of governor that will not just let the bike coast when the limit is reached, but actively apply brakes so that the maximum assist speed cannot be exceeded. The only question is: what speed is reasonable to allow? 10mph? 15? Maybe a generous 20mph? Also, it is clear that few, if any, posting here can imagine a scenario where an e-bike is being ridden for a reason other than recreation! I personally am missing the gene that makes people want to strap their bike to a car, drive 45minutes, unstrap the bike and roll around in the trail for an hour or two before packing it up and heading home. Other than a very few enlightened "Vision Zero" cities with 20mph residential and urban core speed restrictions, the majority of cities allow 25mph traffic most places, and 30mph and 35mph are common in town speed limits.

That's where I ride. I am a vehicular cyclist, year round, rain or shine and a 20mph hard speed limit would be a death sentence. I may have missed the thread that mentioned that e-bikes are found other places than rail trails. 95% of e-bikers use the power to ride LONGER, up steeper hills, and to not be as exhausted at the end of a commute than on non-assisted bikes. The 5% that do blast around at unsafe speeds is much less than the 15% of American DRIVERS that do the same thing!

I wouldn't know about people riding recklessly on trails but I am confident that even if some monstrously overpowered e-motorcycle were deployed on any of the trails around here it wouldn't get past 15mph for long because its rider would be injured or dead by the first turn. I don't know of the Econo sedan that doesn't have at least 90hp to play with. That kind of power can get you rolling to at least 100mph given the room. And? The HATE for e-bikes is duly noted. My wife is blind and she has been run down by far more cars sliding through 'walk signs' than e-bikes (none) doing the same thing.

Even while the hatefest rolls on I see you all nervously licking your quivering lips at the lawlessness about to be loosed upon the land. Control! We must regulate ... control ... Ensure™... restrict, and otherwise police the heathen hordes upon their electric weapons of mass destruction. No we don't. Class 1,2,3 ARE restrictions just like 55, 65, etc. are restrictions. Drivers carry insurance because a vehicle weighing upwards of 4,000lbs with 200lbs of gasoline aboard traveling at 60mph ... that's a bomb baby. In any language spoken on Earth. That kind of destructive energy needs accountability.

Let's not go completely crazy and try to equate a 50lb e0bike with a 6,000lb Chevy Escalade. Last time I was out WALKING on a trail some hooligans on bikes NOT E-BIKES, went hotrodding by. If me or mine had gotten clipped I can't see what the difference would be whether it was an e-bike or the regular kind! It just gets silly the naked pearl clutching. We have way bigger problems looming and most of them are because of CARS. If e-assist is what it takes to make bikes popular enough to replace CARS as the prime motive agent of a greater number of humanity. I AM ALRIGHT WITH THAT. Will there be idiots that take a good thing too far? You betcha. And? What? That isn't happening right now? Get real.

GWG

I only ride in the mountains of Central Idaho. As long as I'm not exceeding any speed limits I don't see any problems with my M2S Ultra HT going 32 mph. Seldom go over 18-20 mph but the fact that the bike will go faster does not bother me.

Gary
Stanley, Idaho

willibrord

ebikes are inappropriate in wilderness settings. They allow too many people easy access, and increased speed will cause more wildlife incidents, more erosion and environmental degradation and increased negative user interactions.
ebikes have their place, on the road, in designated bike lanes, properly equipped and insured.

GWG

I think you misunderstood my post. I would NEVER even think of entering a Wilderness area and we have several here. The Frank, the Sawtooth and the White Clouds. I have hiked hundreds of miles in these wilderness areas. I ride two-track and some single-track trails and roads...like logging roads and mining roads. I am a retired IDAHO Conservation Officer and I did and still do enforce road and trail closures regarding motorized vehicles. Currently, I am Commander of Sawtooth Search and Rescue and I've pretty seen and done it all with 42 years in this immediate area. I love my M2S Ultra HT and I always respect the Wildlife and their habitats.

GARY

2old

The haters have pretty much seen to it that off road areas in socal (except where ICE vehicles are allowed) are closed to e-bikes, but since it's enforced only in a couple of crowded areas, everyone does as they please. Fortunately, these individuals don't predominate everywhere (except on the web, of course where they hoot loud and wide, then crawl back under their rocks).

willibrord

Okay, sorry.
Its just that ebikes are motorized vehicles and should be restricted to places where other off road motorized vehicles are allowed.

Russ Roth

Can actually be a lot different. Having seen adult riders hit a kid that was turning without looking, the adult went flying over the kid and into a fractured shoulder. The kid was hit by a 17lb bike. Change that 17lb bike which is injurious to a 45lb e-bike and the results can change considerably. These are the kinds of crashes that can easily happen. Even the weight of the bike landing on someone in an impact can be considerably different.

The issue that I see is that there is a difference between an e-bike used to commute and one used for recreation. One used for commuting probably should be some sort of different class and that class shouldn't be allowed on the bike paths. I don't see it as the bike actively stopping the speed from going higher but simply no longer assisting above 15mph and making the rider do all the work if they want more. As for faster for commuting, I really think more people should just buy mopeds and call it. Having people with dangerous speeds that they don't have to train to reach, running around among people and traffic, seems stupid.

gpburdell

So you're saying the adult flew off the bike before the bike hit the kid?

I'm curious just how that transpired?

And if it's bike weight that's the issue, would you allow a 33lb Specialized Vado SL ebike and disallow a non-electric 37lb+ Townie Path cruiser?

Leisesturm

I don't know of the e-bike that doesn't already work this way. Unless modified (illegal), all production e-bikes and e-assist kits stop assisting above 20mph or 28mph (Class 3). You suggest 15mph. Interesting. People RUN that fast. Maybe we should just ban bikes, e-assist or otherwise, on trails and MUP's. I would be quite alright with that.

Now you are making a moral argument. It bothers your personal ethics that people can achieve 'dangerous' speeds that they DON'T HAVE TO TRAIN to reach. Just about any bike on any significant downslope can quickly reach speeds that no-ebike made can achieve. The fact that these speeds can be achieved on level ground by e-bikes is a semantic distinction. I am not moved by the moral argument that people should have to 'work' for speed. Mopeds are not legally allowed in bike lanes. However they are grossly underpowered for mixing with street traffic. They are too heavy for women to lift because they have to have DOT rated components. That doesn't make them safer. Only heavier. Lots heavier. But ... gas is cheap. But it will soon be illegal to suggest the deployment of even more gasoline using vehicles than we have at present.

The judgement to use the speed potential of any motorized conveyance cannot be trained in. Driver training is not what keeps 85% of freeway drivers at or below the posted maximum. Most bicycles do not weigh 17lbs. That would e your full carbon specialized road racer kind of machine. The average commuter is moving ~40lbs+ of bike and gear so, not much, distinction from even a 50lb e-bike. Can we agree ANY street motorcycle dwarfs that? And, of course, this is failing to observe the obvious: most of the hitting of anything on the road, and this includes e-bikes and motorcycles as well, is being done by cars and trucks.

There is little use in arguing for more restrictions or etc. on e-bikes. They are here to stay, exactly as they are. Clearly they fulfill a need in the masses of humanity. The change(s) need to come from outside. Just about every class of bike, including the 17lb full carbon, drop handlebar, quasi- Tour de France, road racing bikes are available e-assisted. You can't fight that kind of revolution. "Lead, follow, or get out of the way "...

Russ Roth

Was not making a moral argument and it shouldn't be interpreted that way. People don't just hope on a bike and suddenly do 20mph, they have to work to start reaching that speed which means they familiarize themselves with what that speed looks like and how to react at it. Similarly you don't hand someone the keys to a car and tell them to get on the freeway, you drive around an empty parking lot till they can even steer straight then move to a slower city street. Nothing semantic about it, being able to walk out the door and suddenly be able to speed along at 25mph when you haven't ridden a bike in years is just dangerous. Mopeds can go electric and in a city setting make more sense as you can bring a passenger or carry groceries easier, yes I know a cargo bike can to but that completely throws out your mopeds are heavy argument as a cargo bike is typically heavy without the motor. As to safety among cars, within cities they just need to start leaving the roads, in which case the mopeds are not that a big deal for slower e-bikes. Mups are for bikes and pedestrians but an e-bike should not qualify unless speed restricted.

GWG

I totally agree...motorized is motorized....
Routes open to Trail Bikes are open to e-Bikes. and it should not be all about SPEED.
GARY

gpburdell

It's quite easily achieved in areas with hills. Not all MUPs are flat rails-to-trails conversions.

The challenge there is enforcement. That and penalizing the responsible owners for the sins of the few -- particularly when you can more easily enforce an overall speed limit rule rather than putting a LEO in the position of trying to discern whether that approaching (at a safe speed) bike is conventional or something like a Cannondale Quick Neo SL

Leisesturm

Simply not true. From the first minute on a bicycle, a person could bomb down at a hill and achieve totally unsafe speeds doing it. And, yes, the DMV does hand novice drivers who have never seen an on-ramp, operators licenses that enable them to access the totality of the American Interstate System. My very first freeway merge was quite memorable. Similarly,, after a nine year lapse in any driving at all, I rented a 16' Penske truck and drove it from NYC to PDX in nine days. The day we passed an overturned Penske truck on the highway was a sobering one. You're going to have to try much harder to make a cogent argument for why e-bikers, in particular, should be singled out for more policing, hassle, restriction, education or whatever, than any other kind of road or trail users. The ped part of moped has always been an in joke. Most offer only one speed. An 18" gear suitable only for limping home after running out of gas. Electric mopeds ... why? Because being mopeds they are subject to DOT oversight? And I did notice your observation that maybe bikes should just leave the streets over to cars. Yes, maybe they should. I'd love to see that happen, in fact. Why? Because after just a few months of the resulting traffic nightmares in most cities there wouldn't be that much argument going forward.

2old

Sorry, but in the more than half of the US states with the Class system, e-bikes are specifically defined as NOT motorized vehicles by state law.

2old

People used to buy mopeds in large quantities in CA until the government saw an opportunity to make some money and started requiring licensing and insurance. Neither is necessary on an e-bike that conforms to the "rules".

willibrord

Okay we agree.

willibrord

That is the legal definition. By any common sense definition they are motorized.

willibrord

Totally correct.

jon c. 

Motorized bicycles with gasoline engines aren't any faster than ebikes. Should they be allowed on bike paths as well?

2old

When common sense and the law are at odds, I'll just follow the law. Our culture has individuals that hate to see anyone else having fun. The haters can continue to hate. Welcome to my ignore list.

ESkuta

I disagree with them partly. I think a throttle or allowing a throttle with speed limits of 25km per hour would be much safer, especially going up a hill.