Elevation gain & loss - changes every ride, both Garmin & RWGPS
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Elevation gain & loss - changes every ride, both Garmin & RWGPS
My Garmin 705 shows different feet of ascent and descent on every ride. Ditto RideWithGPS.
Up/Down feet for the first 6 miles of my most common ride:
Is one the "most correct"?
Thanks.
ADDITIONAL INFO ADDED:
Up/Down feet for the first 6 miles of my most common ride:
- 251/356 - Ride with GPS - "Plan"
- 233/325 - Garmin completed ride, 10/16, "corrections" ENABLED
- 183/410 - Ride w/ GPS completed ride, same ride
- 200/386 - Garmin completed ride, 10/1, "corrections" NOT enabled
- 192/378 - Ride w/ GPS completed ride, same ride
- How can this be? It's the exact same data on the XML file.
Is one the "most correct"?
Thanks.
ADDITIONAL INFO ADDED:
- These rides were both done at about 45 degrees F, so temperature shouldn't have much effect on any barometric readings (I would think)
- The elevation is stored in the record inside the GPS device TCX (or XML) file for each second of the ride -
SEE my "what's XML" reply below to see actual data - That's why I don't comprehend why RWGPS would show different results than Garmin -
- I would think the must be identical unless Garmin "corrected" the data, but it's different in both cases
Last edited by hobkirk; 10-19-15 at 04:00 PM.
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There is variation in what is measured and variation in method.
If "corrections" are being done, then it's not the same data.
Ridewithgps "plan" uses a database of elevations (not the same data). That may miss "significant" ups-and-downs.
The 705 uses a barometer to measure the elevation gain/loss. Using a barometer is considered the best way to do the measurement but it isn't perfect. Corrections are needed for GPS-only elevation gain (GPS is poor for measuring gain) but makes barometric gain measurements worse.
There is some "error" (noise) in the data being measured. That error is smaller for longer rides and with more elevation gain.
200 feet is probably closer to noise.
Of course, the elevation gain doesn't take the grade into account (which makes gain a poor indication of effort anyway).
If "corrections" are being done, then it's not the same data.
Ridewithgps "plan" uses a database of elevations (not the same data). That may miss "significant" ups-and-downs.
The 705 uses a barometer to measure the elevation gain/loss. Using a barometer is considered the best way to do the measurement but it isn't perfect. Corrections are needed for GPS-only elevation gain (GPS is poor for measuring gain) but makes barometric gain measurements worse.
There is some "error" (noise) in the data being measured. That error is smaller for longer rides and with more elevation gain.
200 feet is probably closer to noise.
Of course, the elevation gain doesn't take the grade into account (which makes gain a poor indication of effort anyway).
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-19-15 at 02:30 PM.
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Alos, there is error in the barometric readings in that they need temperature correction. I am surprised Garmin doesn't have a built in temp. sensor to auto-correct. I believe they do not and ask you to put in a temp via their software. Add to the fact that shady areas, sunny areas and elevation can have differences in temperature, this too can affect readings.
I also think there is a way to default the Garmin before a ride to help with some of this error.
I also think there is a way to default the Garmin before a ride to help with some of this error.
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There is variation in what is measured and variation in method.
If "corrections" are being done, then it's not the same data.
Ridewithgps "plan" uses a database of elevations (not the same data). That may miss "significant" ups-and-downs.
The 705 uses a barometer to measure the elevation gain/loss. Using a barometer is considered the best way to do the measurement but it isn't perfect. Corrections are needed for GPS-only elevation gain (GPS is poor for measuring gain) but makes barometric gain measurements worse.
There is some "error" (noise) in the data being measured. That error is smaller for longer rides and with more elevation gain.
200 feet is probably closer to noise.
Of course, the elevation gain doesn't take the grade into account (which makes gain a poor indication of effort anyway).
If "corrections" are being done, then it's not the same data.
Ridewithgps "plan" uses a database of elevations (not the same data). That may miss "significant" ups-and-downs.
The 705 uses a barometer to measure the elevation gain/loss. Using a barometer is considered the best way to do the measurement but it isn't perfect. Corrections are needed for GPS-only elevation gain (GPS is poor for measuring gain) but makes barometric gain measurements worse.
There is some "error" (noise) in the data being measured. That error is smaller for longer rides and with more elevation gain.
200 feet is probably closer to noise.
Of course, the elevation gain doesn't take the grade into account (which makes gain a poor indication of effort anyway).
I note the beginnings of climbs and the tops on a contour map. Sum those up. Ride "data" from anywhere else is usually a lot higher. But my numbers I know I did.
Ben
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Your Garmin is probably closer to the truth than an app running on your phone, because it has a barometer, and presumably a better GPS antenna. The baro sensor is why Garmin Connect doesn't automatically run its elevation corrections over your data when you upload from that device (but does for other devices). Corrections usually make the data more accurate but not always.
What xml file exactly?
What xml file exactly?
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Alos, there is error in the barometric readings in that they need temperature correction. I am surprised Garmin doesn't have a built in temp. sensor to auto-correct. I believe they do not and ask you to put in a temp via their software. Add to the fact that shady areas, sunny areas and elevation can have differences in temperature, this too can affect readings.
200 feet is basically "zero". A variation of 10-20% is probably very good. I think part of the problem is that other measurements (like distance) are easy to measure at high accuracy. Elevation gain isn't as easy. Another part of the problem is that a diffence in distance of 1000 feet wouldn't be noticed but a difference in elevation gain of 1000 might be.
Not really. There's a way of syncing the elevation measured by the device to a known elevation but that doesn't do anything for the response of the instrument. Cyclists generally only care about elevation gain/loss (not absolute elevation). For gain/loss, this syncing (calibration) doesn't do anything.
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-19-15 at 02:57 PM.
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[h=3]How accurate is the elevation on my Edge 510, 520, 800, 810, 1000, and Edge Touring Plus?[/h]
The Edge 510, 520, 800, 800, 810, 1000 and Edge Touring Plus calculate elevation data using a barometric altimeter. Once the device is properly calibrated, the standard area of accuracy will be +/- 10 feet. To ensure that elevation data is accurate at the beginning of an activity, calibrate the elevation manually.
To calibrate the elevation manually:
Touch setup menu (tools icon) from the home screen
Touch System
Touch GPS
Edge Touring Plus:
Select Mark Location*
Select Change Elevation
Set elevation to known elevation of starting point
Select check-mark to save
To calibrate the elevation manually on Edge 520:
Press enter/select (upper right) button from the home screen
Press enter/select
Select Set Elevation
Set elevation to known elevation of starting point
Select check-mark to save
The elevation will then be calibrated from this manually set elevation.
The barometric altimeter is not temperature compensated. Temperature changes in the measuring device will affect the barometric pressure sensor and altimeter readings.
https://support.garmin.com/support/searchSupport/case.faces?caseId={df7142e0-ea50-11e0-73d0-000000000000**
The Edge 510, 520, 800, 800, 810, 1000 and Edge Touring Plus calculate elevation data using a barometric altimeter. Once the device is properly calibrated, the standard area of accuracy will be +/- 10 feet. To ensure that elevation data is accurate at the beginning of an activity, calibrate the elevation manually.
To calibrate the elevation manually:
Touch setup menu (tools icon) from the home screen
Touch System
Touch GPS
Edge Touring Plus:
Select Mark Location*
Select Change Elevation
Set elevation to known elevation of starting point
Select check-mark to save
To calibrate the elevation manually on Edge 520:
Press enter/select (upper right) button from the home screen
Press enter/select
Select Set Elevation
Set elevation to known elevation of starting point
Select check-mark to save
The elevation will then be calibrated from this manually set elevation.
The barometric altimeter is not temperature compensated. Temperature changes in the measuring device will affect the barometric pressure sensor and altimeter readings.
https://support.garmin.com/support/searchSupport/case.faces?caseId={df7142e0-ea50-11e0-73d0-000000000000**
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It is funny that we can get altimeters for model aircraft that have built in temp sensors and are accurate (claimed) to 30 CM but we cannot get them for cycling. Others are good to 1 ft and others are good to 1 meter. Why is Garmin only good to +/- 10 ft?
Zlog
ZLog - Recording Altimeter
RAM3
https://www.soaringcircuits.com/
Hobby King Altimeter
HobbyKing® ? Altimeter
I was wondering why they would include a temp sensor and NOT correct for it? sounds ridiculous to me.
I wonder also why they do not use GPS altimetry but that also has levels of inaccuracy.
Zlog
ZLog - Recording Altimeter
RAM3
https://www.soaringcircuits.com/
Hobby King Altimeter
HobbyKing® ? Altimeter
I was wondering why they would include a temp sensor and NOT correct for it? sounds ridiculous to me.
I wonder also why they do not use GPS altimetry but that also has levels of inaccuracy.
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(But it's probably consistent with itself, eg your barometer might be 500 feet too low when you start a ride; every point in the ride will be about 500 feet too low so you can use the data to get your approximate total gain for a ride, but not your absolute elevation at any point.)
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An aircraft costs a little bit more than a bike. I'd hazard a guess the instrumentation for a plane is also a lot more expensive. Probably Garmin doesn't use the thermo in the Edges to adjust the baro because the unit usually lives on your stem, out in the sun? I know they don't do it in my watch because my body temp affects the thermo more than the air entering the watch sensor.
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Some people might consider them gold but a barometer is an instrument that only gives you useful data when it's calibrated. A barometer measures air density and uses a formula to determine what the elevation is. But air pressure changes. Wind is air moving from a zone with high pressure to a zone with low pressure. So the fact that a number came out of a barometer doesn't mean it's perfectly accurate.
If you are interested in absolute elevation, you have to "calibrate" the barometer to a known elevation. That "calibration" doesn't do anything with pressure changes due to weather or temperature.
(But it's probably consistent with itself, eg your barometer might be 500 feet too low when you start a ride; every point in the ride will be about 500 feet too low so you can use the data to get your approximate total gain for a ride, but not your absolute elevation at any point.)
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Here's an online calculator that you can use to estimate the error in barometric elevations due to temperature differences: https://www.isu.edu/~wolpjame/cold.html. Where it says "airport elevation" enter the elevation at which the device was last calibrated.
Technical background if you're interested: https://commons.erau.edu/cgi/viewcont...&context=ijaaa
In the summer, when you're doing an activity that involves real gain, a barometric altimeter can be expected to have an error approaching 100 feet for a 1,000 gain.
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An aircraft costs a little bit more than a bike. I'd hazard a guess the instrumentation for a plane is also a lot more expensive. Probably Garmin doesn't use the thermo in the Edges to adjust the baro because the unit usually lives on your stem, out in the sun? I know they don't do it in my watch because my body temp affects the thermo more than the air entering the watch sensor.
As you said, the Garmins are exposed to sun. They are also small. Model aircraft might be big enough to keep the temperature sensor isolated from sun heat (so that it more accurately measures air temperature).
Of course, if the Garmins don't measure temperature accurately, it's odd that they even have a thermometer.
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-19-15 at 03:27 PM.
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Pressure changes (often associated with weather changes) are the reason you calibrate a barometric altimeter. The barometer itself just reports inches of mercury (or millibars), you need to know the current pressure at sea level for your location to turn that into elevation. Calibrating a barometric altimeter means entering the pressure at sea level (or your current altitude which lets your device do the math in reverse order).
#18
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Does the 705 have the capacity to set known elevation points? I know my 500 does, and I replaced the factory default points with known elevations from a surveyor's database (find local landmark points, ride there, set exact elevation data point,) and mine has been extremely accurate-- with ~5ft when repeating the same 32-mile route, which may be 100% accurate as I doubt I rode the exact same wheeltrack each time. National Geodetic Survey Data Explorer
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The Garmin saves a record to a file every second (there's another option on frequency) and calls it a TCX file. That's a pure XML file. Here's the start of a file (I added BOLD, notes, and line breaks).
- <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no" ?> (Note: this is header info)
- <TrainingCenterDatabase xmlns="https://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/TrainingCenterDatabase/v2" xmlns:xsi="https://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:schemaLocation="https://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/TrainingCenterDatabase/v2 https://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/TrainingCenterDatabasev2.xsd">
- <Activities>
- <Activity Sport="Biking">
- <Id>2015-06-09T19:51:57Z</Id>
* THIS STARTS THE DATA FOR THIS RIDE - <Lap StartTime="2015-06-09T19:51:57Z">
- <TotalTimeSeconds>191.02</TotalTimeSeconds>
- <DistanceMeters>1609.347046</DistanceMeters>
- <MaximumSpeed>13.882999</MaximumSpeed>
- <Calories>85</Calories>
- <AverageHeartRateBpm><Value>161</Value></AverageHeartRateBpm>
- <MaximumHeartRateBpm><Value>202</Value></MaximumHeartRateBpm>
- <Intensity>Active</Intensity>
- <Cadence>44</Cadence>
- <TriggerMethod>Distance</TriggerMethod>
* - <Track> (Note: this starts the tracking data. There's a new "record" for every second)
* - <Trackpoint> (Note: there is one "trackpoint" for every second)
- <Time>2015-06-09T19:51:58Z</Time>
- <Position>
- <LatitudeDegrees>42.449174</LatitudeDegrees>
- <LongitudeDegrees>-71.439554</LongitudeDegrees>
- </Position>
- <AltitudeMeters>119.937</AltitudeMeters>
- <DistanceMeters>3.308</DistanceMeters>
- <HeartRateBpm><Value>104</Value></HeartRateBpm>
- <SensorState>Present</SensorState>
- </Trackpoint>(Note: this ends the first trackpoint)
* - <Trackpoint>
- <Time>2015-06-09T19:51:59Z</Time>
- <Position><LatitudeDegrees>42.449150</LatitudeDegrees>
- <LongitudeDegrees>-71.439523</LongitudeDegrees></Position>
- <AltitudeMeters>119.937</AltitudeMeters>
- <DistanceMeters>6.945</DistanceMeters>
- <HeartRateBpm><Value>104</Value></HeartRateBpm>
- <Cadence>31</Cadence>
- <SensorState>Present</SensorState>
- </Trackpoint> (Note: this ends the SECOND trackpoint)
* - <Trackpoint>
- <Time>2015-06-09T19:52:00Z</Time> (Note: the time is 1 second after the last "trackpoint")
* (Note: all the info just keeps getting repeated.
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I think the Garmins let you store multiple absolute-elevation/GPS-coordinate associations (for calibration) but I believe they only use one (the nearest) for a ride.
In my experience, GPS elevation is about as good as barometric elevation in real-world use when you have a clear view of the sky. I have a data page set up on my Garmin to show a field for GPS elevation and another field for baro elevation, they're usually within 50 feet of each other.
From the Ground Up: Accurate Elevations from GPS.
Altitude Accuracy
Understanding Sport Device GPS Elevation Issues | DC Rainmaker
GPS and altitude for hang gliding and paragliding | Cross Country Magazine
The aviation industry has always used barometric pressure to measure altitude. Altimeters measure pressure and are calibrated to indicate that pressure as an altitude in feet or metres. The calibration assumes that the pressure drops at a standard rate as altitude is gained. We are interested in the altitude above ground level (AGL) or above mean sea level (AMSL) or with respect to the standard reference of 1013.25 hPa (Pressure Altitude, or PA). There is no evidence to suggest the industry will move to GPS altitude in the near future. - See more at: GPS and altitude for hang gliding and paragliding | Cross Country Magazine
Last edited by njkayaker; 10-19-15 at 04:22 PM.
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How to turn an expensive power meter into a cheap altimeter.
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I've found all of my Garmins (500,510,810,Oregon) to provide woeful elevation data. My wife and I ride a tandem with two Garmins with the exact same settings. Though our mileage is generally pretty close, the elevation data can be as much as 25-35% different.
Also, I'm a retired highway engineer and had access to plans for numerous miles of roadway which I use to check for grade data on my rides. The grade info on the Garmins is ridiculously inaccurate while riding; it's not even the same ballpark as reality.
Also, I'm a retired highway engineer and had access to plans for numerous miles of roadway which I use to check for grade data on my rides. The grade info on the Garmins is ridiculously inaccurate while riding; it's not even the same ballpark as reality.
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An aircraft costs a little bit more than a bike. I'd hazard a guess the instrumentation for a plane is also a lot more expensive. Probably Garmin doesn't use the thermo in the Edges to adjust the baro because the unit usually lives on your stem, out in the sun? I know they don't do it in my watch because my body temp affects the thermo more than the air entering the watch sensor.
Ummm, I said Model Aircraft (Remote Control) hobby stuff. Not the full size stuff. If you look, these altimeters are not that expensive but show better accuracy than a Garmin. I would say it is time for them to change their sensors. These things are just a few grams also.
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My Garmin 705 shows different feet of ascent and descent on every ride. Ditto RideWithGPS.
Up/Down feet for the first 6 miles of my most common ride:
Is one the "most correct"?
Thanks.
ADDITIONAL INFO ADDED:
Up/Down feet for the first 6 miles of my most common ride:
- 251/356 - Ride with GPS - "Plan"
- 233/325 - Garmin completed ride, 10/16, "corrections" ENABLED
- 183/410 - Ride w/ GPS completed ride, same ride
- 200/386 - Garmin completed ride, 10/1, "corrections" NOT enabled
- 192/378 - Ride w/ GPS completed ride, same ride
- How can this be? It's the exact same data on the XML file.
Is one the "most correct"?
Thanks.
ADDITIONAL INFO ADDED:
- These rides were both done at about 45 degrees F, so temperature shouldn't have much effect on any barometric readings (I would think)
- The elevation is stored in the record inside the GPS device TCX (or XML) file for each second of the ride -
SEE my "what's XML" reply below to see actual data - That's why I don't comprehend why RWGPS would show different results than Garmin -
- I would think the must be identical unless Garmin "corrected" the data, but it's different in both cases
#25
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I just bought a Sigma BC14.12 bike computer - has a built in Altimeter. I've used it on two rides - to work and from work. I know my elevations at both points (work has a helipad with the elevation posted on it right near my office). So far it seems pretty accurate although it didn't get the ending elevation exact on either ride after I calibrated the starting elevation. I assume because of the variation in pressure during the 45/50 minute ride -- it was morning and evening, windy, temps changing.
I compared it to Strava for both those rides. Distances were pretty accurate - almost spot on (and I sized my wheel with a roll out). Elevation on the way to work was way understated on Strava, but pretty close on the way home where there is more actual climb. The Sigma computer only tracks ascending, not descending.
Going to compare it to ridewithGPS, and mapmyride. As stated, GPS doesn't do well with elevation - I guess part of that has to do with the positioning of the satellites.
I compared it to Strava for both those rides. Distances were pretty accurate - almost spot on (and I sized my wheel with a roll out). Elevation on the way to work was way understated on Strava, but pretty close on the way home where there is more actual climb. The Sigma computer only tracks ascending, not descending.
Going to compare it to ridewithGPS, and mapmyride. As stated, GPS doesn't do well with elevation - I guess part of that has to do with the positioning of the satellites.