Tourist in MSN

My Rohloff bike is a Thorn Nomad Mk II. SJS in the UK is the only retail outlet for Thorns. I ordered the frame and fork from them, also ordered the rims and some other parts from them. They sell complete bikes, but I used to work in a bike shop, I build my own wheels, etc. So, I chose to build up the bike myself. And I bought my Rohloff hub from Bike24 in Germany. It is a good thing that Rohloff manuals are on the internet, as when you order a Rohloff from a retailer in Germany, you get the German documentation, which I can't read.

Rick

I ordered my Co-Motion Pangea Rohloff late November 2013. I received it in March 2014. I ordered all the frame options and the light package. I also ordered the sloped down tube and the fork stays for the Schmidt Son SL alternator hub. The shop used spokes and rims that didn't allow for a good spoke line between the rim and Rohloff hub. I used Sapim spokes and Velocity Psycho rims. The Psycho's are a box style rim and around as heavy as the Ryde Andra rims. I had the wheels out a few weeks ago and the true has not changed. I don't ride on the dirt much but the desert roads are full of cracks.

Tourist in MSN

I built up my Thorn Nomad Mk II about a half year before you ordered your Pangea.

I considered the Pangea frame and fork, but I bought the Nomad frame and fork, mostly due to lower price. I had previously bought a used Thorn Sherpa frame and was very happy with that bike so I had high confidence in Thorn. Later I tried using my Nomad on a mountain bike trip, bought a low end Rockshox suspension fork for it, as that frame was designed to work with a 100mm suspension fork or the solid fork that came with it. Thus, although I did not plan on the suspension fork when I bought the frame, it became a plus that I could use that fork for a trip later. That would not have happened if I bought the Pangea.

And I have had my Nomad on some pretty bad roads. When you see something in the road that is smaller than a tennis ball, you do not bother steering around it, that says something about the road.



And with the suspension fork, below. This trip was day tripping from campsites that we were car camping at.



I find it a bit humorous that I bought the Nomad Mk II, in part because it was available with S&S couplers from the factory. And later took advantage of the ability to use a suspension fork. But in the past year they came out with a new model, the Nomad Mk III, that does not offer the S&S couplers or the correct geometry for the suspension fork. Thus if I was buying today, I would likely have gone with the Pangea over the Thorn. They dropped the optional S&S and ability to use suspension fork due to lack of interest, thus I appear to be an unusual buyer.

If you are not aware, Rohloff now provides flange support rings with new hubs to support the flanges if you crack a flange, the rings support the flange and allows your trip to continue. They suggest adding the rings if you rebuild the wheel. I went ahead and added them although I was not actually rebuilding the wheel, in my case I only removed half the spoke nipples so I could slide the rings on. But I built up the wheels in the first place so I knew what I was doing. If you do not know how to build a wheel, this would not be the one to learn on.

Rick

I have seen the flange support rings and considered them. I believe part of the reason for the flange support rings is the large diameter flanges on the Rohloff hubs make it harder to build a strong wheel. The angle of the spokes from the hub to the rim is more acute. I examined everything on my new bicycle and noticed right away the wheel build was like amateur night. The bent part of the spokes did not make contact with the flange which made a large gap instead of the spoke digging into the flange. The spokes didn't make a straight line on there way to the rim either. My solution was the Psycho rims and the Sapim spokes. The wide box style rim and Sapim's ball joint style spoke heads allowed the spokes to be straight and their bend allowed the spoke to sit against the hub flange. I was able to properly stress the wheel and achieve really even spoke tension. Rohloff makes a very high quality well engineered product. They do what they can to keep their good name and through no fault of their own people without the proper skill set sometimes muck things up.

Tourist in MSN

If you research Rohloff hub failures, there are lots of cases cited on the internet where a spoke came out of the flange from a cracked flange. And then you are kind of screwed because the wheel will not true missing a spoke with the wide angles. It is my understanding that the issue is not so much the angles, but that Rohloff makes the hub shells from a process other than forging. Maybe I have that wrong, I am relying on memory from what I read years ago.

I used Sapim nipples even though I had a rim drilled for Rohloff, for the reason you cite.

Rick

Thanks for the info: I will investigate this subject further.

IPassGas

US wheel builders do not know how to build wheels for Rohloff and they are reluctant to contact European shops to learn. Especially for 26" rim and less so for 700, the large Rohloff flange is best with angled spoke drillings in the rim. From Ryde specifications (see their brochure), Andra rims are drilled 8 deg radially and 2 deg axially. If you use a spoke length calculator that gives angles as well as lengths (e.g. freespoke), the Andra drillings match with Rohloff well. The spoke line at the nipple end is straight. This and polyax nipples are ideal. I learned this the hard way, 3 bad rear wheels, I gave up on US bike shops and built the wheels myself. After 5000 miles of heavily loaded touring, the wheels stay true and at tension. The flange support rings are a good thing.

Rick

The rims that came on my touring bicycle had the holes almost perfectly aligned down the center of the rim. The j bend on the spoke was a poor match for the flange. I replaced them with the Psycho rims that are a wide box style rim and there is a noticeable right and left space between the drillings. I used the Sapim spokes with Polyax nipples. I did this 7 years ago and the wheels are in the same condition as when I rebuilt them. I have had to rebuild or build new wheels for every bicycle I have ever purchased.

Tourist in MSN

I have only bought two complete new bikes in my life, the wheels were fine. But having worked as a bike mechanic and having some strong opinions on what I wanted, I chose to build up most of my bikes.

I used Wheelsmith spokes, I usually have used those on my other wheels. But as I noted above, I used the Sapim nipples because they are more forgiving if the angle is off.

If you consider adding the support rings, I did one side at a time, loosened and removed half the nipples so that I could drop the rings onto the hub but I did not even remove the spokes from the hub. And after seating the ring on the hub, retentioned the spokes on that side before I did the second side.

Did not take long at all. I set the hub on an empty bucket to provide a stable horizontal support for the wheel.

First photo, I am holding the spokes up so that I can drop the ring onto the hub.



Second photo, the ring is on the hub but I have not yet laced the spokes. Thus, the spokes are not at correct angles or cross pattern yet.



I had a few drops of oil drip out of the hub when the hub was horizontal, so if you do this, be prepared for a few drops of oil to drop onto whatever is under the hub.

Rohloff does not recommend adding the rings to all hubs, they only specifically recommend adding them when you rebuild the wheel. But some of my trips have had me quite far from help with a heavily loaded bike, so I chose to add the rings when I learned they existed. If I did not use this bike for heavy touring in remote areas, I probably would not have added the rings.

veloz

If you go with Dyads, 32 should be fine. OP’s maybe not so much. I’d prefer 36 rear either way. I did 32 on my A23’s and rear is cracked at a spoke hole. Still runs true! That wheel saw a lot of loaded tour and off-road so no surprise. Velocity wheels get my vote every time.

multifrog

I'm thinking about putting something together and all the information is so helpful!

Calsun

Want stronger wheels then go to 3 cross lacing of the spokes. You can do this easily and only need slightly longer spokes for any given wheel. I have done this and not broken a single spoke in the past 50 years of touring and this was with standard grade spokes. In fact I am still using the tubular wheels I built in 1971 for my first trip down the California coast from Arcata to Altadena.

bradtx

This thread may venture into religious level debate. My two touring bikes use 36H wheelsets, one straight 14G and the other straight 15G...no problems. Fewer holes may very well require better spoke designs, maybe including a triple butted spoke build. Maybe an asymmetrical rear rim. It just depends how much you'll load up with gear.

Brad

PS Quality of build is also a major factor.

Happy Feet

I know it's an old thread but one comment struck as iffy. Not choosing 36 because of problems sourcing replacement hubs in small towns. Likely one will also not find a 32 hub either, nor spokes or someone who can build a wheel. Sure some riders might have the skills to diy it without a truing stand etc... but many would just have to buy a whole wheel.

Mostly, for parts in small towns, one would have to use shipping regardless

Calsun

Hubs do not break but spokes do and when a spoke is lost there is a good chance of a damaged rim. 3 cross lacing has been used for many many years and is still common on mountain bikes for good reason. Unfortunately there remains the influence of bikes built to attract buyers by appearing to be "race" bikes and so we have frame geometry and wheels that are fine for time trialing and maybe a triathalon but not for bad roads which are often encountered by people touring or simply living in areas with very poorly maintained roads, as is common in agricultural and extractive industries where heavy trucks beat up the roads.

Any bike shop can put together a 3 cross lacing wheel using the customer's existing hub and rim. The only materials cost is for slightly longer spokes. Or do it yourself with a $40 wheel truing stand. I have been using the same stand for fifty years so it was a worthwhile investment.

Regardless of the number of spokes a radial lacing is giong to result in more broken spokes on bad roads. Not a problem if you are a pro racer with a chase car to hand you another wheel but definitely a problem for riders out hundreds of miles from the nearest decent bike shop. A 3 cross is going to be stronger than a 2 cross lacing and both will be stronger than a radial laced wheel. Touring the emphasis should be on wheel strength and not its weight in grams or how aerodynamic it may be at speed.

Tourist in MSN

This is the touring forum, virtually nobody tours on radial spoked wheels. Most are three cross, 36. But some newer wheels are 32 instead of 36, some components are getting hard to find in 36, thus the increasing prevalence of 32. There are a small number of other exceptions, two cross for Rohloff, etc.

When I built up my Lynskey four years ago, that is 32 front, 36 rear.

fooferdoggie 

they are mine cracked on a bunch of holes and it was 36