Restaurant delivery car parked in bike lane. Posted picture on Google map reviews.
06-02-21, 02:07 PM
#126
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06-03-21, 04:58 AM
#128
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No, parking in the bike lane isn't dangerous. It may be the catalyst that causes a cyclist to make a bad decision. In some places in the CBD, there are two standard travel lanes and no bike lanes. Delivery trucks regularly park in the travel lanes to make deliveries. From a risk and risk mitigation standpoint, that is no different from a truck parking in the bike lane. You know what I do when I encounter that situation while pedaling? I make sure it's safe to go around, then I go around. My street is lined with autos parked in the travel lanes. Most streets in this area are. You know what I do when I encounter one while pedaling? I make sure it's safe to go around, then go around.
To remind you, this is the question you continue to dodge.
Thinking about the bigger picture, about 8 times more pedestrians are killed each year in the USA than are cyclists, so why is forcing him to push his dolly across 3-4 intersections or more a better solution than me going (pedaling) around?
To remind you, this is the question you continue to dodge.
Thinking about the bigger picture, about 8 times more pedestrians are killed each year in the USA than are cyclists, so why is forcing him to push his dolly across 3-4 intersections or more a better solution than me going (pedaling) around?
I'm not a fan of "broken windows" because it's been used to justify overly aggressive police interventions over petty matters, but this is clearly an issue of deterrence being needed to preserve the traffic system.
The proliferation of delivery services and the shift to online shopping are imposing social costs that need to be allocated somehow. Old city centers especially are not designed to accommodate the numbers of delivery vehicles that we're now seeing, and seeing this entirely from the perspective of the delivery driver really misses a larger point-- there really needs to be a real rethinking about how urban deliveries can be made. In the meantime, if people who rely on bike lanes for their transit through those urban centers don't "fight back" figuratively, they're likely going to see the bike lane converted into one very long parking lot.
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06-03-21, 07:18 AM
#129
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I think you're missing a larger point--in the situations you're talking about, the bike lane will quickly become the de facto delivery parking lane and cease to be an effective bike lane. Any one such truck or car is no big deal, but if it's known that the bike lane isn't enforced, it's going to be a lot more than one.
.
.
Enforce bike lane infractions when reasonable alternatives exist and aren't used. Don't enforce them when no reasonable alternative exists or when the infraction isn't affecting anyone. This is nothing new to law enforcement. They apply discretion and a standard or reasonableness regularly. I don't hesitate to run a traffic light right in front of one of the downtown police precincts. Cops see me do this nearly every time I ride downtown. They see that there is no harm in it. There's no telling how many times I have been clocked going over the speed limit while driving and not been pulled over. Several times I have been pulled over and not ticketed.
I truly believe our advocacy needs to apply the same standard of reasonableness we'd like applied to us. When it is seen as unreasonable or dogmatic, it can be counterproductive.
As a cyclist, when I come upon a bike lane obstruction, I do what I do when I am driving and see a travel lane obstruction. I go around when it's safe. I recognize and respect that cyclists are more vulnerable, but the risk mitigation measures are exactly the same when driving and riding. Proceed when safe. In the case of the delivery driver parked in the bike lane where I posted the satellite image, had a rider been in the lane, they could have gone around the inside of the delivery truck.Slowly and cautiously of course.
It's as if we expect to ride unimpeded, but we don't have that same expectation when driving. Our CBDs are tight on space. We can never make them perfect for pedestrians, cyclists, drivers and delivery services.
For clarification, I view parking in a bike lane much differently from making a quick stop for a load, unload or delivery in the bike lane.
06-03-21, 07:23 AM
#130
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There is no question that some vehicles are parked or stopped in the bike lane without a thought given to how it might affect others. My tangent on this thread is that there are times when there isn't a reasonable option as it relates to delivery drivers. Well, an option that most folks would consider reasonable.
I am all for advocacy, but we all need to be aware of the larger picture. When we go scorched earth we are going to alienate some of those we need as allies. I had dinner with the wife of a local urban planner two nights ago. Her husband is the one who handles the bicycle infrastructure in our 3 parish (county) area. She gave me some valuable insight into some of the push back he gets. The screaming loudly and throwing a tantrum kind of advocacy can only carry you so far. Pissing one key person off can create an insurmountable hurdle.
The OP has said he subscribes to the broken window theory. I don't. If I were going to do what he does, I'd offer the photo, a brief explanation of the dangers it poses to cyclists and the reasonable alternative available. That's advocacy. Raising hell when a delivery driver stops in a bike lane on a largely empty street for a 2 minute pizza delivery isn't advocacy. Nor is it when a reasonable alternative doesn't exist in a CBD.
I am all for advocacy, but we all need to be aware of the larger picture. When we go scorched earth we are going to alienate some of those we need as allies. I had dinner with the wife of a local urban planner two nights ago. Her husband is the one who handles the bicycle infrastructure in our 3 parish (county) area. She gave me some valuable insight into some of the push back he gets. The screaming loudly and throwing a tantrum kind of advocacy can only carry you so far. Pissing one key person off can create an insurmountable hurdle.
The OP has said he subscribes to the broken window theory. I don't. If I were going to do what he does, I'd offer the photo, a brief explanation of the dangers it poses to cyclists and the reasonable alternative available. That's advocacy. Raising hell when a delivery driver stops in a bike lane on a largely empty street for a 2 minute pizza delivery isn't advocacy. Nor is it when a reasonable alternative doesn't exist in a CBD.
I think you're missing a larger point--in the situations you're talking about, the bike lane will quickly become the de facto delivery parking lane and cease to be an effective bike lane. Any one such truck or car is no big deal, but if it's known that the bike lane isn't enforced, it's going to be a lot more than one.
I'm not a fan of "broken windows" because it's been used to justify overly aggressive police interventions over petty matters, but this is clearly an issue of deterrence being needed to preserve the traffic system.
The proliferation of delivery services and the shift to online shopping are imposing social costs that need to be allocated somehow. Old city centers especially are not designed to accommodate the numbers of delivery vehicles that we're now seeing, and seeing this entirely from the perspective of the delivery driver really misses a larger point-- there really needs to be a real rethinking about how urban deliveries can be made. In the meantime, if people who rely on bike lanes for their transit through those urban centers don't "fight back" figuratively, they're likely going to see the bike lane converted into one very long parking lot.
I'm not a fan of "broken windows" because it's been used to justify overly aggressive police interventions over petty matters, but this is clearly an issue of deterrence being needed to preserve the traffic system.
The proliferation of delivery services and the shift to online shopping are imposing social costs that need to be allocated somehow. Old city centers especially are not designed to accommodate the numbers of delivery vehicles that we're now seeing, and seeing this entirely from the perspective of the delivery driver really misses a larger point-- there really needs to be a real rethinking about how urban deliveries can be made. In the meantime, if people who rely on bike lanes for their transit through those urban centers don't "fight back" figuratively, they're likely going to see the bike lane converted into one very long parking lot.
Like dump the bike lanes.
I kid! *runs off to get fire suit* Seriously, bike lanes certainly have their place and I admire those who would defend/protect them. Maybe some here believe the infractions have to be raised to an intolerable level before any defenders can say or do anything about it? I'd say by then it's too late.
06-03-21, 07:58 AM
#131
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I am headed out for a kayaking vacation. Kayakers are to motor boaters what bicyclists are to motorists.
06-03-21, 09:11 AM
#132
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I see this from both sides and thoughtfully examine it from both sides.
Enforce bike lane infractions when reasonable alternatives exist and aren't used. Don't enforce them when no reasonable alternative exists or when the infraction isn't affecting anyone. This is nothing new to law enforcement. They apply discretion and a standard or reasonableness regularly. I don't hesitate to run a traffic light right in front of one of the downtown police precincts. Cops see me do this nearly every time I ride downtown. They see that there is no harm in it. There's no telling how many times I have been clocked going over the speed limit while driving and not been pulled over. Several times I have been pulled over and not ticketed.
I truly believe our advocacy needs to apply the same standard of reasonableness we'd like applied to us. When it is seen as unreasonable or dogmatic, it can be counterproductive.
As a cyclist, when I come upon a bike lane obstruction, I do what I do when I am driving and see a travel lane obstruction. I go around when it's safe. I recognize and respect that cyclists are more vulnerable, but the risk mitigation measures are exactly the same when driving and riding. Proceed when safe. In the case of the delivery driver parked in the bike lane where I posted the satellite image, had a rider been in the lane, they could have gone around the inside of the delivery truck.Slowly and cautiously of course.
It's as if we expect to ride unimpeded, but we don't have that same expectation when driving. Our CBDs are tight on space. We can never make them perfect for pedestrians, cyclists, drivers and delivery services.
For clarification, I view parking in a bike lane much differently from making a quick stop for a load, unload or delivery in the bike lane.
Enforce bike lane infractions when reasonable alternatives exist and aren't used. Don't enforce them when no reasonable alternative exists or when the infraction isn't affecting anyone. This is nothing new to law enforcement. They apply discretion and a standard or reasonableness regularly. I don't hesitate to run a traffic light right in front of one of the downtown police precincts. Cops see me do this nearly every time I ride downtown. They see that there is no harm in it. There's no telling how many times I have been clocked going over the speed limit while driving and not been pulled over. Several times I have been pulled over and not ticketed.
I truly believe our advocacy needs to apply the same standard of reasonableness we'd like applied to us. When it is seen as unreasonable or dogmatic, it can be counterproductive.
As a cyclist, when I come upon a bike lane obstruction, I do what I do when I am driving and see a travel lane obstruction. I go around when it's safe. I recognize and respect that cyclists are more vulnerable, but the risk mitigation measures are exactly the same when driving and riding. Proceed when safe. In the case of the delivery driver parked in the bike lane where I posted the satellite image, had a rider been in the lane, they could have gone around the inside of the delivery truck.Slowly and cautiously of course.
It's as if we expect to ride unimpeded, but we don't have that same expectation when driving. Our CBDs are tight on space. We can never make them perfect for pedestrians, cyclists, drivers and delivery services.
For clarification, I view parking in a bike lane much differently from making a quick stop for a load, unload or delivery in the bike lane.
I think the reality here is that your exception is likely to swallow the rule in any crowded CBD.
06-03-21, 12:06 PM
#133
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Note that none of the OP's "violation of the law!" pictures and complaints about a delivery vehicle parked in a bike lane that he encountered appeared to involve a crowded CBD or even a busy street.
06-03-21, 12:57 PM
#134
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But keep splitting your hairs I'm sure you will find one fine enough to satisfy the Paul Doctrine that drivers should only be expected to respect the bike lanes when it doesn't inconvenience the all important task of delivering office supplies.
06-03-21, 01:09 PM
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06-03-21, 02:33 PM
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We're forced to take the lane when the bike lane is obstructed, but I'm not prepared to "ride more slowly". It's inevitable that we will slow motorist down at some point, by taking the lane, but I see no reason to purposely go slower. I am careful in not slowing down other vehicles on the road, but it does happen, especially when I have to avoid pot holes, but they never have to slam on the brakes.
How much slower do you go?
.
How much slower do you go?
.
06-03-21, 02:34 PM
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06-03-21, 02:38 PM
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We're forced to take the lane when the bike lane is obstructed, but I'm not prepared to "ride more slowly". It's inevitable that we will slow motorist down at some point, by taking the lane, but I see no reason to purposely go slower. I am careful in not slowing down other vehicles on the road, but it does happen, especially when I have to avoid pot holes, but they never have to slam on the brakes.
How much slower do you go?
.
How much slower do you go?
.
Streets are supposed to be safe to use regardless if you're 8 or 80. That's the premise behind Vision Zero.
Last edited by Daniel4; 06-03-21 at 02:41 PM.
06-03-21, 02:52 PM
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No slower than any family out for a ride with their kids. Motorists following can take a good look why we're in front of him when there's a bike lane full of parked cars right beside him.
Streets are supposed to be safe to use regardless if you're 8 or 80. That's the premise behind Vision Zero.
Streets are supposed to be safe to use regardless if you're 8 or 80. That's the premise behind Vision Zero.
06-03-21, 03:36 PM
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Congratulations on figuring out a way of making an (arguably) bad thing even worse!
06-03-21, 08:02 PM
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I honestly don't give a crap if a delivery person briefly blocks the bike line. I can share. These folks - who are usually among the most economically vulnerable to start with and hardest hit by the recent pandemic - are just trying to put food on the table. I can't believe some people get so bent out of shape about this.
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06-03-21, 08:09 PM
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I honestly don't give a crap if a delivery person briefly blocks the bike line. I can share. These folks - who are usually among the most economically vulnerable to start with and hardest hit by the recent pandemic - are just trying to put food on the table. I can't believe some people get so bent out of shape about this.
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06-03-21, 08:42 PM
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More like a handful of self righteous bicyclists who see themselves as perpetual victims of any motorist that crosses their path, waging what they see as a holy roller battle with representatives of an evil/greedy/ignorant/wicked motor powered economy/culture that doesn't recognize the righteousness of dogma driven obnoxiousness.
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06-04-21, 08:28 AM
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Big city problems. Come out here to small town America and you don't have to worry about such things.
06-04-21, 08:30 AM
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More like a handful of self righteous bicyclists who see themselves as perpetual victims of any motorist that crosses their path, waging what they see as a holy roller battle with representatives of an evil/greedy/ignorant/wicked motor powered economy/culture that doesn't recognize the righteousness of dogma driven obnoxiousness.
06-04-21, 10:45 AM
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I think you're missing a larger point--in the situations you're talking about, the bike lane will quickly become the de facto delivery parking lane and cease to be an effective bike lane. Any one such truck or car is no big deal, but if it's known that the bike lane isn't enforced, it's going to be a lot more than one.
Delivery trucks already have no disincentive to park in bicycle lanes (or nearly anywhere).
That is, it's likely what is currently seen isn't going to get worse.
The COVID stuff (already a year old) caused a large increase in deliveries. Deliveries aren't likely to increase significantly more (it seems more likely they will drop some as things open up).
The proliferation of delivery services and the shift to online shopping are imposing social costs that need to be allocated somehow. Old city centers especially are not designed to accommodate the numbers of delivery vehicles that we're now seeing, and seeing this entirely from the perspective of the delivery driver really misses a larger point-- there really needs to be a real rethinking about how urban deliveries can be made. In the meantime, if people who rely on bike lanes for their transit through those urban centers don't "fight back" figuratively, they're likely going to see the bike lane converted into one very long parking lot.
Last edited by njkayaker; 06-04-21 at 10:50 AM.
06-04-21, 07:29 PM
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06-04-21, 08:09 PM
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Whoosh!
If they need to "dodge" a parked car, they aren't aware enough and will have all sorts of problems.
Bike lanes are not magic.
If people can't deal with common traffic issues, bike lanes won't save them.
Last edited by njkayaker; 06-04-21 at 08:35 PM.
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06-05-21, 06:49 AM
#150
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It's not really a bike lane if cars are parked there. Either we have bike lanes to encourage people to ride bicycles or we don't and we let people park their cars there.