AlmostTrick

In my experience, most motorists regularly exceed the speed limit on almost all roads... Usually by 10 MPH or more.

In your estimation, does this common motorist behavior make cycling less safe or less pleasant? Or does it matter little?

bronco71

10+ over is moving into the arena of being imprudent under many circumstances. My thoughts in the other thread were primarily based on under 10mph over the limit.

That said, as it relates to cyclists it largely depends on the road. Under some conditions speeding drivers has no impact. In others even driving at the speed limit could be dangerous. Irregardless, there will always be drivers who speed, some dangerously. We would be better served by having higher training standards for acquiring a driving license. Closer to driver training in Finland.

Minnesota Expat

10 mph?! I'm moving to Bedrock, IL! Cars here routinely drive 10-20 mph over the speed limit.

It doesn't make riding less safe, not when you see them and they remain predictable. There are more dangerous behaviors.

It certainly makes cycling less pleasant when these same people complain about cyclists blowing through stop signs.

B. Carfree

As others have noted, it really depends. On a wide, straight roadway with a 55 mph speed limit, I'm fine with folks driving 85 mph. However, on a narrow roadway or something with curves, the posted speed limits (including the non-binding advisory signs on curves) are usually too high for a typical motorist. ALL the bike lane stripes in my area are worn away on any right curve and all the center stripes are worn away on the left curves; this is due to motorists driving too fast for their skill level. Also, when motorists are travelling slower, fewer of them will pass you per mile, which makes the trip more pleasant (at least for me).

One thing that speeding motorists create is a sense of danger on the roads for other users. When motorists are rolling along at slow speeds, pedestrians casually cross the street. Add more speed and people will stand on the corner waiting in spite of having the right of way because they just don't trust Mr. Wheeler to respect that right of way any more than he respects the speed limit. These unnecessary waits can really add up in an urban grid, turning a short two mile walk that should take 30 minutes into 70 minutes of unpleasantness.

One other thing about motorists speeding. If they had to obey the speed limits, their trip time relative to cyclists changes. Sure, we've all seen those contests where cyclists always beat motorists in some urban setting, but the reality in most of our lives is that it is a bit faster to do most trips by car. If motorists were to obey the law, the reality might be a bit closer to those contests, which takes away one of the excuses that many people use for driving. (No, they don't need an excuse to drive, but they sure seem to like having one.)

kickstart

I don't think its the speed that's the problem, but what some do to maintain it. Weaving, tailgating, cutting others off, dangerous passes, ect.

B. Carfree

That bumps up into the basic speed law that puts the maximum speed at what is safe under the current road conditions. If someone is doing all that, they are in obvious violation.

kickstart

I don't care that its a violation, my concern is that its dangerous and irresponsible.

dynodonn 

10 mph speed difference is substantial, that extra few feet per second travel distance can be a real game changer in many incidents.

catonec 

10 mph is not an issue until there is a incident. If something happens that requires quick response it can make a big difference, stopping time/distance increased, more of a chance of skid/slide, harder impact on pedestrian/cyclist...

daihard 

The speed limit on residential streets in the U.S. is already too high. Imaging driving 10 mph over that - nothing but dangerous and irresponsible.

Chris516

Simple and, to the point. No other words needed.

rydabent

If a driver playing with their smart phone hits a cyclist at 45 mph or 55 mph, the out come will be the same.

CrankyOne

It makes a considerable difference. First, a driver has less time to react the faster they are driving which decreases their ability to avoid incidents and leads to an increase in the overall number of incidents.

Second, vehicle speed has a huge impact on severity of injuries or fatalities. Going 40 in a 30 doubles the likelihood of a fatality while at 20 mph almost everyone will survive. Do you want to be hit by someone driving 20 mph or 30 mph?

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Vehicle Speed[/TD]
[TD]Odds of Pedestrian Death, Source 1[/TD]
[TD]Odds of Pedestrian Death, Source 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]20 mph[/TD]
[TD]5%[/TD]
[TD]5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 144"]30 mph[/TD]
[TD]45%[/TD]
[TD]37%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 144"]40 mph[/TD]
[TD]85%[/TD]
[TD]83%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Consider too the mindset of the driver. Is someone driving 20 more likely to be more aware of their surroundings than than someone driving 40? Is someone driving 40 mph less likely to be patient of a bicycle rider and more likely to try a more dangerous pass?

Dutch, Swedes, and Finns have done studies on speed and comfort. They all determined that people are comfortable riding bicycles among cars going about 16 - 18 mph, drops off a bit approaching 22 mph, and then drops off steeply. If I remember correctly about 95% of Dutch are comfortable with 18 mph traffic but only 60% are comfortable with 27 mph traffic and it drops off sharply from there. The volume of vehicles is a significant factor here as well.

dynodonn 

When hitting someone there may not be a difference, but 10 mph difference could make a difference if the motorist happens to look up at 45 mph and is able to make a better evasive maneuver, possibly avoiding the cyclist altogether, than at 55 mph.

gregf83 

An extra 10MPH of speed is far less dangerous than a distracted driver looking at their cellphone.

Clearly, the slower traffic is moving the safer for cyclists but I don't have any problem commuting on a hwy with an 80kph speed limit. No one goes 80kph but as long as they're paying attention and stay in their lane it doesn't bother me.

I'm far more upset when I see someone holding their cellphone while driving than a little extra speed.

dynodonn 

Our area has a safety corridor, in that the speed limit was reduced by 10 mph after much campaigning by local citizens. Before the 10 mph reduction, there were numerous death annually, after the speed reduction was enacted, the traffic death numbers for the 15 years that the corridor has been in effect, equals that of the last year of the higher speed limit. As I posted earlier, little extra speed can be a real game changer.

ItsJustMe

I don't really care. I'm already riding on roads with 50 or 55 MPH speed limits. I don't really care whether they're doing 50 or 65, it's not that big of a difference. If they hit me I'm dead either way. Kind of like falling - if you're over 50 feet, you're dead anyway.

wphamilton

I think that people tend to overestimate their driving skills, and underestimate the dangers and consequences. Because of that, to me it does matter. It could be the main difference between an accident and a close call.

dynodonn 

Back to our local safety corridor, there have been several collisions that occurred of the same nature, before..... many ended up with fatalities involved, now.... just severe injuries due to the shorter stopping distances and lower impact forces.

daihard 

Exactly. That's why Seattle, as part of its endorsement for Vision Zero, has pledged to lower the speed limits of many of its streets. The numbers the SDOT (Seattle Department of Transportation) quoted are very similar to what you posted above.

bronco71

Interesting that the thread starts with drivers who exceed the posted speed limit. Then rapidly moves into lowering the existing speed limit. Why should we believe that drivers will change their already illegal behavior? There will always be speeders, perhaps a more effective approach would be more driver training so they handle the car better.

daihard 

Lowering the speed limit should go hand in hand with stricter enforcement and/or redesigning the streets to force the cars to go slowly. Crashes will occur no matter how well one can operate a motor vehicle.

StanSeven

Where do you get that? Or is this just your own personal opinion?

bronco71

That is wrong. Operator skill is the most important factor in reducing the potential for collisions. Lack of operator skill is the number one cause of collisions.

How much enforcement is enough? I live in a town that has zero tolerance and a ton of traffic cops. People still drive 5-10 over. It would take a constant police presence to eliminate speeding.

Finally, crashes will always occur. You take a risk stepping out of your door. Zero risk is an impossible goal. It is better to focus energies on the area that will do the most good. Increasing the skill level of the driver and the consequences for a mistake is the right approach. Lowering speed limits mainly impacts those who already obey the law.

daihard 

Vision Zero isn't about zero risk. The goal is zero traffic deaths. Yes, crashes will always occur regardless of the driver skills. When they do occur, lower speeds would reduce the likelihood that the victim gets killed. See the table @CrankyOne posted above.

I don't dismiss driver training, but if that is done, lowering speed limits and enforcing them is still critical to reduce/eliminate the traffic-related deaths. I believe people in Europe are generally more capable of operating motor vehicles than those in the U.S., yet it's not uncommon to see 30 km/h (18-19 mph) as the posted speed limit on the residential streets there.