tomato coupe

26 gears?

I'm guessing you have a 12 speed 10-33 cassette, so you start with 24 total gears, not 26. There are 3 nearly identical gear ratios (0.6%, 1.1%, and 2.1% diff) and 3 darn close gear ratios (2.8%, 2.9%, and 3.3% diff). So, unless you want to do some painful double shifting across multiple gears to access them, you really have 16 useable gears in the best case scenario.

From highest to lowest, they are:
48/10, 48/11, 48/12, 48/13, 48/14, 48/15, 48/17, 35/13, 35/14, 35/15, 35/17, 35/19, 35/21, 35/24, 35/28, 35/33

Gear ratios don't change with tire width. If two gear ratios are the same with 35c tires, they're the same with 42c tires.

chaadster

Yeah, of course 24 gears, as there is no 2x13 drivetrain out yet. And yes, all SRAM Force AXS drivetrain are 12spd. Plug in those 48/35 crankset and 10-33 12spd cassette numbers into the Sheldon Brown or BerkshireSports gear ratio calculator you prefer and you’ll find none of the gear combos actually move the bike the same distance per revolution (i.e. in terms of inches of development with either 35c or 42c rubber) they are all distinct, and as I’ve been saying, that’s what’s important for riders seeking to optimize their output.

tomato coupe

Yeah, technically speaking, the gear ratios are all different. But the difference between the 48/15 and the 35/11, for instance, is only 0.6%. For all practical purposes, those gear ratios are the same. To argue otherwise is silly.

chaadster

The 48/15 is smack in the middle of the cassette, perfect for heavy use, whereas the 35/11 is next to last on the cassette on the small ring, which is perhaps handy if I were to have one of those fits like the 1x guys have where they can’t figure out how to use the front derailleur, but more likely, it’s useful in short, sharp rollers or when a climb briefly flattens out before pitching upwards again. I don’t think I use 35/11 much myself, but scrapping all the benefits of the 11 other gears to get rid of a the so-called “duplicate” 35/11 makes zero sense for how I ride.

tomato coupe

The point is, the 35/11 isn't the only duplicate gear in your setup. There are several duplicate gears, which is why you effectively have only 15 or 16 different gear ratios. The only way to get (close to) 24 useful gear ratios from a 2x12 setup would be with some form of half-step gearing.

chaadster

No, there are not several “duplicate” gears…we covered that already. There are closely spaced ratios in two ranges which is exactly why it’s better for riders seeking to optimize their output than 1x systems.

tomato coupe

Do we really have to go through the math for every gear ratio? How about the 48/19 and 35/14? They differ by 1%. So, if you're in the 48/19 at 90 RPM and you shift to the 35/14, your cadence will increase to (almost) 91 RPM. Are you honestly going to argue that there is a significant difference between those two gears?

chaadster

Serious question: have you ever ridden a 2x? Because that’s now how shifting works…or at least that’s now how competent riders shift.

I used to think it was funny when 1x guys would say how using the FD was such a burden and hard thing to do, but this conversation has me thinking that maybe there is a real problem at the root there with understanding mechanical systems.

Similar gears in different ranges are almost irrelevant, because for optimized output, you want the same close ratios in each range. Efficient shifting and optimized output are not achieved by jumping between ranges looking for what you call “significantly different” gears. That’s exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. Rather you should be reading the terrain, assessing your ability, and selecting the gear range which allows you quick access to the ratios which allow you to make the most speed for what you can output across that terrain.

Maybe you don’t do performance road riding, but that’s how it works, it’s why you want as many closely spaced gears as possible given the terrain, and why having the same (or very nearly the same) gear ratios in at some point in each range is essentially both inevitable and irrelevant vis a vis the consideration of 1x as an alternative.

I have 3 1x bikes, and not a ride goes by when I don’t want for more gears. Ditto any of my 2x bikes. My dream is infinitely variable gearing, so until then, the more gears the better, particularly in a couple of ranges so that I don’t have to wait forever between shifts to guide a chain up and down something silly like a 20spd cogset.

The Classified hub is something which makes 1x look feasible for me for road riding, but I can’t lie; the first time I saw it I wondered could it work with a fron derailleur for 4 gear ranges!

PeteHski

The way I ride a 2x (40+ years experience, just so we don't have to question "ability" to shift a FD) is to use the small ring for only about the first 3 or 4 lowest gears and then go on the big ring for everything higher. I might stay on the small ring up to mid-cassette if I know it's going to get steeper again, but that's about it. I tend to stay on the big ring down to the second lowest gear, so I do use a lot more of the overlap there. So those near "duplicate" gears have a practical use, but they don't give you any more actual ratios vs a 1x setup. This is what tomato is getting at.

The way I ride 1x (on all my mtbs for the last 6 years) is by moving up and down the cassette as needed, LOL

The problem I have with 2x is that my local roads are full of steep dips and rises which require a s*** load of FD changes. It's the worst scenario for a multi-chainring setup and a constant reminder of why 2x was consigned to history in the mtb world.

1x13 pretty much solves this issue for me, at a very small cost in the number of useful ratios. I effectively give up maybe 2 ratios at most for the same overall range. Ekar cleverly gives up those ratios at the very low end of the cassette, where it doesn't matter much anyway. The larger gaps there feel more natural anyway, as they do on a mtb setup. Ekar actually has much closer ratios at the higher end of the cassette than a compact, wide range 2x11

GhostRider62

On hills of 3-4 minute duration and under 13%, I use big-big ( could be 56x32 or 50 x 36 depending on bike). On extended climbs of at least 8%, I shift to the small ring. My 2x setups have at least 16 or 17 usable gears. To get the same tight gearing on the small cogs and a similar range on a 1x12 isn't possible but it would be close enough with 1x13. I never shift back and forth on the FD as one would in the old days with half step gearing. I use the entire cassette with the big ring and then only shift to the small ring for very steep or very long hills. 2x works for me. 1x13 might convert me.

I can't see SRAM or Shimano getting to 1x13 on road bikes anytime soon. Maybe 2024

GhostRider62

Much of what you wrote is factually incorrect, but you're the professional.

I have the last three generations of SRAM Red (12, 11, and 11 mechanical) and the FD is perfect for me but maybe you are clueless on their setup as you are clearly a Shimano fanboy. The eTap are very good to the point of faultless. I cannot remember a missed shift in many, many tens of thousands of miles.

Shimano battery is better? Are you joking? It is massive with wires. Wires. OTOH, the SRAM is easy on and off with no wires. Shimano's "wireless" is kludgy at best. Shimano's "wireless" rim brake system is a joke and the key reason I stuck with SRAM.

chaadster

Well getting back more on topic, SRAM, like Shimano, appear to be more cognizant of cyclists needs than a lot of cyclists are, and both offer automatic FD shifting solutions for electronic groupsets— Sequential and Synchro, respectively— for those who, uh, “prefer” not to think about how gearing works.

Assuming the introduction of Rival AXS and their recent acquisition of Hammerhead signal deep commitment to electronic shifting, taken together with Sequential automatic shifting, there seems to me to be no incentive to hamstring road groupset capability with 1x even once they move to 13spd cassettes. Further, since the 13spd fits in the same space as 12spd and all 12spd road is AXS, they could economize production and supply chains by simply firmware-updating shifters and derailleurs, discontinuing 12spd cassettes, and moving all AXS users to 13spd (i.e. when their 12spd cassette needs replaced).

DaveSSS 

The most practical way to use axs 12 speed is to stay in the big chain ring as long as possible, then shift to the little ring and usually two sprockets smaller to continue the progression to lower gears for climbing. If you do that there are really only 15 distinctly different gear ratios. The rest are duplicates or near duplicates, so you have 15 easy to find gear ratios. It really doesn't matter is the big/big is used or not. I may use it briefly, but I'm more likely to get out of the saddle instead. As an example, my 48/28 is a 1.71/1 ratio. If I shift to the 31T little ring, I then shift to the 21 and have the next lowest ratio of 1.47, plus 3 lower ratios. My lowest ratio in the big ring is a 48/33 which is just a near duplicate of 31/21.

Roller coaster roads are always a pain. I have none of that, so I may make a chainring shift only 4 times on a 50 mile ride. I never use sram sequential or compensating modes. IMO, they're for beginners or riders who don't want to learn simple shift patterns. I limit my shifts to only two if I hold a shifter lever for a multishift.

Another thing I do quite often is start a climb standing in the big ring then sit and shift to the little ring with no compensating shifts required. In my experience, pedaling standing gives me about the same amount of extra torque as a two sprocket down shift.

PeteHski

This is ultimately the bottom line. So when considering 2x12 vs 1x13 it essentially comes down to whether or not you can ride with 2 less gears vs your tolerance to repeated front shifts if your riding terrain demands it. 2x works well if you are riding mostly on flat or consistent gradients with the odd isolated steep climb. But 1x works better on constantly changing terrain that would require loads of front shifting with a 2x. My local roads are very much the latter, which is why I'm pro 1x13 as a viable alternative to a compact 2x.

chaadster

I think it more comes down to how one rides, particularly whether one can dictate their own pace (e.g. solo riding) or has to keep up in a fast, competitive group.

Caliwild

Resurrecting this older thread instead of starting a new one... Any recent updates regarding when we can expect the new SRAM Red AXS groupset? One of the mechanics at an LBS said that it's coming out in April. Any other insider info? I wonder if there is going to be a performance upgrade. From the articles I saw posted back in January, it seems more of a visual thing with lighter components. I guess it'll be more in line with Force D2?

datlas 

Lots of “spotted in the wild” content out there. So it will be coming soon.

Yan 

https://road.cc/content/tech-news/ou...red-axs-306323

New SRAM Red will almost certainly come out this year.

Caliwild

Which explains the blowout pricing on the older Red stuff... Almost tempted by the low prices.

eduskator

I wonder if they will improve the shifting speed of the FD.

DaveSSS 

It's the chain rings that are the problem, not the FD. I've used Campy 12 and GRX cranks with two early model Force and one Rival FD. Setting up the FD was easy and I never get chain drops. I've done new setups at least 14 times now. I just switched to the latest 12 speed GRX cranks on 3 bikes.

Red chain rings always got the best reviews. The new one piece Force chain rings are reported to be like Red.

Caliwild

You are absolutely correct! I had the last generation Force AXS (D1) on a bike. I swapped out to the new Force (D2) crankset and the front shifting improved greatly.

tomato coupe

You've made that claim many times, but your own experience doesn't even support that conclusion, given that you've never used SRAM cranks in any of your setups.

PeteHski

Was that on the same bike? Asking because I don’t have any front shift issues with the first gen chainset. Been faultless for 2 years now. Not saying that the new one isn’t an improvement, but mine shifts as well or better than any of my previous setups (mainly Shimano Ultegra or 105). But I only ever shift the front rings off load at a reasonable cadence. So that might mask any potential weakness.

DaveSSS 

I have used Specialties TA rings that behaved like the reports on SRAM rings. I tried at great length to get them to shift well, but the shift to the big ring was slow and noisy and would always toss the chain off the big ring, if shifted from the smaller half of the cassette. I tried them with rival and force FDs with the same result. Switched back to GRX rings and perfect shifting was restored. I just switched 3 bikes to the new 12 speed cranks. They work great, too.