Cat 5 Question
06-05-14, 06:50 PM
#51
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It's too bad that your area doesn't have Cat5 races. That's the way it is supposed to work. Forcing you into Cat4/5 kind of defeats the purpose. That said, the whole "throw them into a pack and see who survives" strategy of USAC is broken, but don't think that they actually care. USAC is an arm of the UCI. All they care about is pro racing and pro racing development. The rest is just a cash cow money sink and a price to pay for the end product. Just wait until grand fondos start replacing your local crits. It's coming.
06-05-14, 07:52 PM
#58
out walking the earth
ah. way too obscure a reference. I thought it might have been a hockey thing or something
06-05-14, 07:57 PM
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Cyclocross is different than MTB as far as categories go. In MTB you can declare yourself a Cat2 with zero experience. It is the equivalent of Cat5 men's road. Yes, there is a Cat3, but you can choose to be a Cat2 right from the get-go. Upgrading to Cat1 requires two top-five finishes. It's even easier than upgrading to Cat4 road. To get to pro, though, you have to get two top-threes or three top-fives at a national calendar event. So don't be impressed by a Cat1 MTB rider unless they're a solid road racer, too.
06-05-14, 08:43 PM
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It is the same here in Australia. Cycling Australia, through State/Territory cycling administrations control rider licensing and all riders must belong to an affiliated Cycling Club in order to obtain a race licence. It does make it easier to manage, (reduce sandbagging - to an extent) and offers the ability to sanction riders who transgress and ensure that they do not pop up somewhere else and try to beat their suspension/sanction, as their club is also accountable for them.
cheers
06-05-14, 08:58 PM
#63
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I think it varies per location. For instance, I was a Cat 5 last season here in Texas. I raced 4 road races (Cat 5), 4 crits (Cat 5), 2 crits (Cat 4/5), and 2 stage races (TT, Crit, RR) (Cat 5). There were plenty of races I did not do simply because there was no C5 category only 4/5 and I did not feel ready. I am a 4 now and when I race 4/5 races there are guys who have been racing as a 4 for a couple of years who are going balls out while first-timer 5's are trying to hold on and survive. I think it pushes some of them away from the sport. I understand promoters need to make $, but I have yet to see a Cat 5 race that wasn't close to selling out in this region.
06-05-14, 09:14 PM
#64
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Cyclocross is different than MTB as far as categories go. In MTB you can declare yourself a Cat2 with zero experience. It is the equivalent of Cat5 men's road. Yes, there is a Cat3, but you can choose to be a Cat2 right from the get-go. Upgrading to Cat1 requires two top-five finishes. It's even easier than upgrading to Cat4 road. To get to pro, though, you have to get two top-threes or three top-fives at a national calendar event. So don't be impressed by a Cat1 MTB rider unless they're a solid road racer, too.
06-06-14, 11:14 AM
#65
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Here is an email from a race we had recently:
So racing in a 4/5 mixed field in Lambra as a 4 is no different than just being a 4 it seems. The cross country and what not are classified as 3, 2, 1 so maybe that is why there is some issues there. But I would hope anyone doing 100kmh+ cross country as cat 1 would start as a 4 or 3 at least. But nope, we get them in cat 5. The last race they had one as a 4 ride off the front and win by 3 minutes solo.
So racing in a 4/5 mixed field in Lambra as a 4 is no different than just being a 4 it seems. The cross country and what not are classified as 3, 2, 1 so maybe that is why there is some issues there. But I would hope anyone doing 100kmh+ cross country as cat 1 would start as a 4 or 3 at least. But nope, we get them in cat 5. The last race they had one as a 4 ride off the front and win by 3 minutes solo.
. But in the 'normal' races, Cat 5 isn't about winning anything, anyway. If those guys want to do that, that's fine. Just get your mass starts (LAMBRA is quite lenient with upgrades to 4) and get your upgrade. Let those guys continue racing as a 5 if they want. You'll gain a lot more experience and fitness by training and racing as a 4 and continuing on to Cat 3 and up.
You must be referring to the Cat 4 guy who demolished the field in Lake Charles. It looks like he raced a couple of 'cross country' races as a Cat 2. He is now a Cat 3 on the road. I don't think he was out to stroke his ego or anything. I think he is just that strong . . . . there are those people out there that just have to put in their 'time' in each category and fly through. LAMBRA got him up where he needs to be quickly. I've seen it a lot racing LAMBRA over the past several years. Guys I started with as Cat 5 were killing us, then killed us for a while in 4s, then immediately were 3s, then some are 2s already. It's just the nature of bike racing. It takes a while for the talent and skills to shake out.
06-06-14, 11:59 AM
#66
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I hear you. I don't think getting dropped due to fitness is the main issue. Everyone is gonna get dropped at some point, even if it was just one bad day or something like that. Cat-5 doesn't need to be "easy" racing so that everyone gets a ribbon, it just needs to be a good learning experience. At least that's my understanding of it. Like you say it's more the whole confidence and pack experience thing, which makes it tough...you don't have it, you get dropped in 4/5's. You didn't gain anything in that race. Then next time it happens again.
Group rides are great to help, but even fast group rides are quite a bit different than a race in my limited experience.
Clinics would be great as someone mentioned, but it might be hard to get guys to attend.
At some point I guess it becomes just get out there and do it, 4/5's or whatever be damned...seems like that's how it works. But I'm not sure that's how USAC has Cat-5 working in it's mind is it? That's the big question.
Group rides are great to help, but even fast group rides are quite a bit different than a race in my limited experience.
Clinics would be great as someone mentioned, but it might be hard to get guys to attend.
At some point I guess it becomes just get out there and do it, 4/5's or whatever be damned...seems like that's how it works. But I'm not sure that's how USAC has Cat-5 working in it's mind is it? That's the big question.
Honestly if was a coach, i would take this opportunity to educate new racers and let them decide if they can use/need your services. I've been to Crits and seen guys who just get off work, come to race with no warm up or anything of sorts. When i get to CAT3, someday, I might start volunteering to educate new racers
06-06-14, 12:39 PM
#67
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The problem with an MTB Cat2 (Cat5 road equivalent) moving quickly to Cat3 is that they may or may not have acquired the bike handling skills to deal with a solid Cat3 field, or worse, a P/1/2/3 field. Racing single track is about as far removed from racing an NCC crit as it could possibly be. This is what is broken in the system. Fudgy will cringe when I mention this, but back in the 80's before the points system, the district rep did the upgrades. They got to know who you were and how you achieved your results. They got to know you face to face and through others they trusted. Their job was easier because there was no Cat5 and Cat1 was handled by Colorado. All they did was 4-3 and 3-2. Once they saw you enough in Cat4 races and knew you weren't a hazard, getting to Cat3 was straightforward. Upgrading to Cat2 was much harder then. You were under a lot of scrutiny. They would routinely hold back strong guys if they were crashing or they received negative feedback about them. Our fields on average were much larger then than they are now. Lots of people's livelihoods were at stake. They didn't screw around. Points have replaced that scrutiny and the sport is worse off for it.
06-06-14, 12:43 PM
#68
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Some of us do exactly that. I will be doing my second clinic this year starting in July. Gratis.
06-06-14, 01:27 PM
#69
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I'm not disagreeing with you. Though I do think it's mostly generation gap and selective memory, that's not my current point. My only question was "what's your measurement?" to know that it was better "back when" or if any changes to cat 5 structure make improvements. What's the metric?
That said, I think there are several things that actually are leading to a deterioration of pack skills amongst new racers.
1. Emphasis on fitness. Lots of new racers are focused on specific training, and less focused on learning to ride a bike. Back in the day, most of the training was doing hard group rides, and most people had some pack riding experience before they started racing.
2. Decline of the club system. Being in a club with mentors gives you a much better idea of what the heck you're supposed to be doing.
3. Strava. People out chasing KOM's by themselves aren't learning to handle their bikes in a pack.
Now, get off my lawn.
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06-06-14, 03:19 PM
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This issue came up at our last local Association meeting. It was suggested that the local racers get together and submit a proposal on how they would like the Cat system to work. Here is what we came up with:
Cat 5s line up at the back of the Pro 1/2 race. When they get dropped by the 1st or 2nd lap they will quickly learn what bike racing is really all about: humiliation & self loathing.
For those that have the stones to come back 10 times they get moved down in categories gradually until they can complete an entire race.
Upon reaching this ultimate category they will be awarded an official "Pack Fodder" jersey which they must wear until they can podium races consistently (or at least top 10 with a valid excuse*).
5 podiums, 10 top 10s with a valid excuse*, or 8 top 10s with at least 3 awesome excuses** = UPGRADE!
* Excuses such as "I'm tapering", "I drank too much last night", "I forgot my gel", "That dude didn't hold his line", etc... = Immediate Downgrade
** Awesome excuses would be: "My cleat broke & I had to sprint with 1 leg", "I swallowed my inhaler", "The follow car hit me", etc...
Cat 5s line up at the back of the Pro 1/2 race. When they get dropped by the 1st or 2nd lap they will quickly learn what bike racing is really all about: humiliation & self loathing.
For those that have the stones to come back 10 times they get moved down in categories gradually until they can complete an entire race.
Upon reaching this ultimate category they will be awarded an official "Pack Fodder" jersey which they must wear until they can podium races consistently (or at least top 10 with a valid excuse*).
5 podiums, 10 top 10s with a valid excuse*, or 8 top 10s with at least 3 awesome excuses** = UPGRADE!
* Excuses such as "I'm tapering", "I drank too much last night", "I forgot my gel", "That dude didn't hold his line", etc... = Immediate Downgrade
** Awesome excuses would be: "My cleat broke & I had to sprint with 1 leg", "I swallowed my inhaler", "The follow car hit me", etc...
06-06-14, 03:29 PM
#71
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The greatest thing about my team is that on team training rides we "yell" in the Event Service's way (famous thread in the 41) at bone headed stuff done by the newbies when it is involved with safety. For the bone headed things they do that allow us older and less fit guys to still hand them their asses we mostly laugh and give gentle guidance.
06-06-14, 05:06 PM
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All the talk about how to improve is a little silly if you don't know what you're trying to improve, and there's no way of knowing if an improvement occurred. One person's eyeballs are not a good measure of the skills of cat 5 riders across the system.
06-07-14, 08:34 PM
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And cat 5 we have a guy show up for his first race, place first. Second race he got first, 3 mile time trial they make you do for the omnium, he did 6:14 which would put him in top 5 at cat 3. Since there isn't enough races in the area that will mean at least a year till he upgrades.
It seems they need to make an upgrade path quicker for 5. When "new racers" show up to to a cat 5 race and have people averaging 23-24mph it is not benefiting anyone. 30-40 pack groups drop to 11 or less before the finish? I know the sponsors like a full cat 5 group to cover prizes and what not but this is not going to encourage anyone to get into racing.
Also, talked my gf into racing her first race. Womens is even worse of a mix. You get 1-2's and college scholarship girls racing at cat 5 speeds and 1 or 2 women wanting to start getting dropped within the first 1/8th. They really should split them with the juniors as beginners and give them free entry fees to get the numbers up.
It seems they need to make an upgrade path quicker for 5. When "new racers" show up to to a cat 5 race and have people averaging 23-24mph it is not benefiting anyone. 30-40 pack groups drop to 11 or less before the finish? I know the sponsors like a full cat 5 group to cover prizes and what not but this is not going to encourage anyone to get into racing.
Also, talked my gf into racing her first race. Womens is even worse of a mix. You get 1-2's and college scholarship girls racing at cat 5 speeds and 1 or 2 women wanting to start getting dropped within the first 1/8th. They really should split them with the juniors as beginners and give them free entry fees to get the numbers up.
Last edited by Christobevii3; 06-07-14 at 08:37 PM. Reason: add
06-07-14, 10:22 PM
#74
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You're comparing TT times of people that raced 30 miles and probably cruised for most of it to people that averaged 25 mph for 80 miles. You're not going to find a way to rid cat 5 of fit racers, and you really don't want those guys racing in higher categories before they know how to handle a bike.
06-08-14, 02:28 PM
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All but one of the guys ride in a strict club so they know how to handle their bike. It is a waste of their time and ours to have us grouped together. The guy who shows up to his first race ever as a cross country runner and gets second though needs pack experience. Problem is: if you are riding off the front with the other guy, no club experience and what not he will never get pack experience. The 5's only had one crash between road race and crit too: guy ran into curb himself cutting too tight. The masters had multiple bad wrecks with one guy going to the hospital to check his shoulder after three of them crashed in a corner.
