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The seat forward on old road-bikes thread....

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The seat forward on old road-bikes thread....

Old 05-20-22, 07:42 AM
  #51  
smd4
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Man, is that Huffy the ugliest bike ever? I vote yes. The backwards seat clamp certainly doesn't help.

And what's with those wheel reflectors? Amber for when you just get into the car's headlights to alert them that you're in the road, and red to tell them to "STOP!" just before they hit you?
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Old 05-20-22, 07:55 AM
  #52  
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I'm not sure why smd4 is giving beng1 such a hard time here except for the fact that the latter obviously has some unusual tastes - which is totally fine by me - but there's certainly no reason not to believe that he can "blow by" riders on nice modern road bicycles simply because he rides around on a heavy old thing. I ride this Creme Uno out for 20-40 miles at a time with a high gear ratio on the Shimano Nexus 3-speed of 1.36 over the 44/23 cogs, which is a pretty high gear in any case... I ride a lot on my other road bicycles and regularly exceed 20mph average for such rides, but I can still maintain 15mph on this heavy, upright thing with such a high gear for miles on end. I have never been passed by anyone on a proper road bicycle during such times though I've passed several.

Not everyone is hauling or even capable of doing so just because they own a new road bike with proper gearing. Most of the guys I pass probably can't run 8-10 miles at a sub-8 minute pace either, but I can. Comes way more down to fitness level than the bicycle.

-Gregory

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Old 05-20-22, 08:05 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988
he rides around on a heavy old thing.
Now who's giving beng1 a hard time?

Sorry. To answer your question--what beng1 writes strains my credulity. Which, with what's been going on in the world of late, is near the breaking point. There's plenty of reasons not to believe that he can "blow by" riders on modern road bicycles while riding a Huffy or a Stingray or a ride-on lawnmower or whatever. I'm pretty sure he's not the Second Coming of Bernard Hinault.

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Old 05-20-22, 08:35 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by beng1
A fact someone interested in going fast without clips/straps would not care about, and not really factual anyway.
The only time a power increase of 25% or more is realized is in very short sprints by very serious cyclists. At any long distance there is not enough difference in efficiency between having or not having retention for an amateur to worry about, it is less than ten percent for the serious, and for amateurs probably less than five percent.
as you wish
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Old 05-20-22, 12:14 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by beng1
...
I have a few other speed tricks I want to try before toe-clips, such as longer crank-arms and maybe some 1 1/8" tires instead of the 1 3/8" that are on it now.
...
Longer crank arms will do nothing to make you faster. You can probably find faster tires, and they may be skinnier than what you have now, but not necessarily so. Skinnier tires will make the bike feel faster, but the perception of greater speed is not the same thing as greater speed.
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Old 05-20-22, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm
Longer crank arms will do nothing to make you faster. You can probably find faster tires, and they may be skinnier than what you have now, but not necessarily so. Skinnier tires will make the bike feel faster, but the perception of greater speed is not the same thing as greater speed.
I am tall with long legs. The fastest I ever went was with 180mm cranks. This bike has 165mm cranks, and if I would like to try a more standard size like 170 or 175 as all my other bikes have which I have gone faster on than on this bike, not by perception by by timing them over a known circuit that would make sense., but thanks for your time and assumption anyway........
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Old 05-20-22, 08:23 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Now who's giving beng1 a hard time?Sorry. To answer your question--what beng1 writes strains my credulity. Which, with what's been going on in the world of late, is near the breaking point. There's plenty of reasons not to believe that he can "blow by" riders on modern road bicycles while riding a Huffy or a Stingray or a ride-on lawnmower or whatever. I'm pretty sure he's not the Second Coming of Bernard Hinault.
Well July 9th I am entering myself and this Huffy bike as it is in a local 12-mile time trial which last year had over 150 entrants. Do you care to make a guess where I will place out of the 150 riders overall ??? I ran the same Time trial 25 years ago on a six-speed road bike and placed 40th out of 401 entrants. I am sure I will not finish in the top 10% as I did that year, but I am confident I can get into the top 33% overall, and I will blow off a LOT of people on very late-model machinery. With the covid pandemic being ignored much more this year, it may have many more than 150 entries. You can see the results of the 1997 race here; QUAD Results | Highmark QUAD Games
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Old 05-22-22, 01:26 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988
Here's one from the era when that was to be expected - a 1951 New Hudson Silver Arrow with laid back frame angles based on a pre-war BSA road model. I only got around to moving the seat post forward after I added a 2" stem (which was provided stock) as it came to me without an extension.
Being in that more forward position definitely helps make the saddle position feel more modern but the handling and stability characteristics are still unique.-Gregory
I would think that the more laid-back the head-tube angle the more stable the bike would be overall. Since I was a kid I always enjoyed riding hands-off sitting upright on occasion, and some of the newer bikes I have are not as friendly to this as the older.
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Old 05-22-22, 02:37 PM
  #59  
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This is one of my favorite threads.

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Old 05-22-22, 06:36 PM
  #60  
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LIfe story involving a Huffy:

I wasn't allowed to have any kind of a bike till I was 8, then received a 24" balloon-tired coaster brake J.C. Higgins to deliver newspapers with one of those huge cargo baskets up front. The newspaper carriers had a thriving bicycle culture that involved artful riding along the sidewalk and accurate cross-body throwing of the folded papers onto the front porches of doorsteps of the customers. For houses that were set so far back that they were out of range, graceful pivots to go up the front walk and then behind-the-back delivery while pivoting onto the walk across to the driveway were customary. All us paperboys felt like our bikes were part of our bodies. As I grew, the bike became a second-hand 26" Schwinn with whitewalls, no fenders, still single-speed with coaster brake. We had no pets at our house--but I didn't need one--I had my bike.

Three years of college and military service interrupted that relationship. After resuming civilian life, I went back to college, but enrolled at Oberlin, where students were not allowed tp have cars. Signs at the town line said "Caution: 3000 bikes in this town." So of course, I had to have a bike. My older brother had owned a Huffy with drop bars but I think it was only a 5-speed. Preferring a more familiar setup, I built a new rear wheel for it with a Sturmey-Archer 2-speed kickback coaster brake hub. It was so much fun! It didn't take long to realize the advantage of those skinny tires. Just for the heck of it, I entered a casual local "race" of a few miles beginning and ending at the Oberlin town green. Because I still had my bicycle legs from all those years of delivering papers, I did pretty well. But a few days later, a friendly "serious" biker suggested I try a used lightweight bike with sewup tires and toe clips that happened to be for sale. It was like sprouting wings and flying! That hooked me--even though many other activities precluded regularly putting in the miles to become a serious bike racer it was amazing to learn how to ride in a pack, participate in huge group ride events like TOSRV along with thousands of other riders, and find I could use my road bike to make the trip from Oberlin back home to Toledo. And road bikes just as objects of efficient design and beauty to tinker with, maintain, and upgrade became an important part of my life as well. They still are. So what if that Huffy had been originally designed, manufactured, and sold to easily cash in on the market for anything with derailleurs and drop-bars? The one I had opened the door to road biking and well-made bikes and even inspired a couple others in Oberlin to build 2-speed coaster brake rear wheels for road bike frames. We can all sing together, regardless of our voices.
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Old 05-22-22, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by chip.hedler
LIfe story involving a Huffy:The one I had opened the door to road biking and well-made bikes and even inspired a couple others in Oberlin to build 2-speed coaster brake rear wheels for road bike frames. We can all sing together, regardless of our voices.
NIce story. My first road-bike back in the 70s was a Columbia. I think that the phrase "well made" means time-consuming and expensive to make out of lightweight, expensive materials, but does not say anything about reliability or performance, in fact I think the Huffy ten-speed is probably more reliable than a "well made" bicycle, as it is almost all steel and very, very strong. I don't think a light bicycle is that much of an advantage except to a light rider. I have usually weight over 200 pounds the last four decades, so a bicycle is a very small percentage of my total bike-rider package, especially if I have a loaded messenger bag and winter clothing on because I live where I have to ride when it is around freezing. If I were riding in the summer and I weighed only about 150 or 170 pounds, then having a bike that was ten or fifteen pounds lighter may make a worthwhile difference. The most fun is the riding part, and that is not dependent on what type of bike it is as long as it is reliable. One of the main reasons I like riding my cheap old bikes besides having fun and getting exercise, is making people aware that they don't have to buy new or expensive equipment to participate in bicycling, a fact which I am sure less and less of the population is aware of as time marches on. And you do not need a new or expensive bicycle to go fast.....
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Old 05-23-22, 05:25 AM
  #62  
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When I took that first ride on a "well-made" bike, it was the difference in handling and responsiveness--the kinesthetic experience--that was such a revelation. It was a totally new dimension to feeling connected to the bike. I agree that there's no advantage to a super lightweight steed if your main purpose is conditioning via exertion. But I soon came to appreciate the quality of the workmanship, the precision of the bearings, the logical design of cotterless alloy cranks, quick-release skewers, etc. At the same time I was not immune to the enthusiasm of the serious riders for the trappings of European-style sport cycling: chamois-lined black shorts, jerseys with pockets on the back, the little cotton caps worn with the bills to the back--appropriate cycling wear but also a very distinct kind of plumage. As always, there were those whose concern with superiority/inferiority and financial advantage allowed them to own a succession of expensive special import machines which gave them no advantage out on the road beyond the bragging rights they assumed. I've been happy to keep riding the same 60s-vintage steel road bike I acquired decades ago, though it's now time to take care of the effects of time, miles, and weather on the frame.
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Old 05-23-22, 07:51 AM
  #63  
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My "well-made" bike is all-steel, too. But what separates it from a Huffy is night-and-day in terms of craftsmanship, material quality, handling, responsiveness, etc. Quite simply, there's no comparison. It's apples to oranges. While I enjoy riding, one of my favorite aspects of the hobby is also working on my bike. The quality of the components is simply light years ahead compared to what can be found on a Huffy. It's a joy to work on bearings, axles, pedals, cranks. To feel the butter-smoothness of precision bearings; to use specialized tools made for the job.

There is true artistry in a fine bicycle that just can't be found in mass-market American-made water pipe bikes. I loved riding my Free Spirit 10 speed. But after watching the RAAM one year, and then looking at what I had, I knew then that cycling could be even more than what I had known originally. I made my very first trip to a real bike shop not long after...
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Old 05-23-22, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1
Well July 9th I am entering myself and this Huffy bike as it is in a local 12-mile time trial which last year had over 150 entrants. Do you care to make a guess where I will place out of the 150 riders overall ??? I ran the same Time trial 25 years ago on a six-speed road bike and placed 40th out of 401 entrants. I am sure I will not finish in the top 10% as I did that year, but I am confident I can get into the top 33% overall, and I will blow off a LOT of people on very late-model machinery. With the covid pandemic being ignored much more this year, it may have many more than 150 entries. You can see the results of the 1997 race here; QUAD Results | Highmark QUAD Games
there was a member of the bike club way back who made predictions as to his finish ranking before a time trial.
he always seemed to get a flat tire, ruining his terrific time.
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Old 05-23-22, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
This is one of my favorite threads.

It is full of Win
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Old 05-23-22, 02:21 PM
  #66  
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Here's the state of my rehab:

view album at https://bikeforums.net/g/album/25036284
It's a Geminiani, tentatively identified as an early '60s Special. BTW, shortly after acquiring that first genuine road bike, a Gitane, I reversed the clamp on the seat post to move my riding position farther forward.

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Old 05-24-22, 07:22 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by repechage
there was a member of the bike club way back who made predictions as to his finish ranking before a time trial.he always seemed to get a flat tire, ruining his terrific time.
That is part of racing, flat tires etc.. One time before a time-trial I got a flat tire, changed it, then got another one during the time trial, I think I threw the bike about three car-lengths. You can also get bad weather as in a super-windy day, and one time after training all summer and really thinking I was going to set a personal best at an upcoming race, I got a bad cold the day before the race and it knocked two or three miles-per-hour off my top speed. So when I say how fast I think I will go in a race, I am just going by how fast I can usually go in training, but that speed will only happen in a race if the weather is good, the rider is healthy, and the bike stays in one piece.
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Old 05-24-22, 07:27 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by chip.hedler
Here's the state of my rehab:view album at https://bikeforums.net/g/album/25036284
It's a Geminiani, tentatively identified as an early '60s Special. BTW, shortly after acquiring that first genuine road bike, a Gitane, I reversed the clamp on the seat post to move my riding position farther forward.
When I was young an old High-School buddy of mine had a Gitane, they must have put up a good effort at selling them in the USA at one time.
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Old 05-24-22, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
My "well-made" bike is all-steel, too. But what separates it from a Huffy is night-and-day in terms of craftsmanship, material quality, handling, responsiveness, etc. Quite simply, there's no comparison. It's apples to oranges. While I enjoy riding, one of my favorite aspects of the hobby is also working on my bike. The quality of the components is simply light years ahead compared to what can be found on a Huffy. It's a joy to work on bearings, axles, pedals, cranks. To feel the butter-smoothness of precision bearings; to use specialized tools made for the job.

There is true artistry in a fine bicycle that just can't be found in mass-market American-made water pipe bikes. I loved riding my Free Spirit 10 speed. But after watching the RAAM one year, and then looking at what I had, I knew then that cycling could be even more than what I had known originally. I made my very first trip to a real bike shop not long after...
Surprisingly the yellow Huffy ten-speed, which is from 1973, has all Shimano components. The wheel hubs, derailleurs and shifters, and they did a really nice job on those components. I believe the cranks are USA-made though. I looked at some later Huffy ten-speeds and they did not have the Shimano components they had ones that look like they were less expensive to manufacture, but without testing them I would not say if they perform any worse than the Shimano items.

I have a 1987 Schwinn Supersport I got for ten-dollars a few years ago, it has a Columbus tubing frame and Shimano 600 components, twelve-speeds and 700c size rims. It is probably ten pounds lighter than the Huffy. It is fun to ride, but preference is an objective thing, and I can enjoy each bike for what they are, and I like the Huffy because it is what I and my friends made epic memories with back in the 70s.
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Old 05-24-22, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
You lost me when you wrote "84" wheel diameter." Have fun on your "standard" 14-28.
That is a typo, it is of course supposed to be the Circumference of the wheel, the diameter times Pi.
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Old 05-24-22, 08:19 PM
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Story of my 2nd Gitane and the shop it came from

The Gitane that was mentioned in a previous post was a club model with Reynolds main tubes. I rode it for about a year, but the frame was just too flexy when really turning the power on. The place where everyone went to get top-of-the-line equipment was a pro shop in a basement up in Cleveland run by an old German biking wizard named Heinz Lincke. He sold top-of-the-line machines: Gitanes, a prestigious German brand named Bauer, Masis, maybe some others as well. He would measure you and tell you in a strong German accent what frame size you should have, work out what chainwheels and freewheel you should use, and special-order it directly from Europe. He didn't say, but he must have emigrated from Germany either before or after WWII because he had all these home movies of indoor 6-day races in Europe he would show to demonstrate what good riding form is. He and a bunch of other white-haired transplants from France and other European nations would get together once a month for century rides outside of Cleveland that involved several stops for food and beer. They would ride like hell for about 20-odd miles, then pile into one of their refreshment haunts, eat and drink, maybe have a smoke, then get back on the bikes and ride like hell for another 20 miles or so. Few of us young wannabes could avoid getting dropped until after the third or forth stop when the pace would slacken due to excess lubrication. Heinz helped me order and set up my 2nd really good bike, an all-Campy Gitane Tour De France, which I rode for the next 4 or 5 years, including long-distance rides from Windsor, Ontario to Toronto and from Calgary, Alberta to Lander, Wyoming. That bike got destroyed when a car passed the bunch I was in, then made a sharp right turn directly in front of us. Nobody ran into the car, but in trying to avoid it and the other riders, the Gitane and I nose-dived into a ditch, hopelessly kinking the frame and the fork. I salvaged all the components, though for my next bike...
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Old 05-26-22, 06:13 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by chip.hedler
The Gitane that was mentioned in a previous post was a club model with Reynolds main tubes. I rode it for about a year, but the frame was just too flexy when really turning the power on. The place where everyone went to get top-of-the-line equipment was a pro shop in a basement up in Cleveland run by an old German biking wizard named Heinz Lincke. . ...
Germans were renowned engineers of the 20th century. Hard to believe a frame would be made so poorly that during any use it would be in danger of flexing so much it would break or it's handling would become dangerous, if so that is poor engineering or craftsmanship involved. I weigh over 200 pounds and put thousands of miles on tall-size european lugged-steel road-bikes riding, racing and standing up while going up hills and never had a problem.
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Old 05-26-22, 07:05 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by beng1
Germans were renowned engineers of the 20th century. Hard to believe a frame would be made so poorly that during any use it would be in danger of flexing so much it would break or it's handling would become dangerous, if so that is poor engineering or craftsmanship involved.
Frame flex isn't a sign of poor engineering or craftsmanship.

Originally Posted by beng1
I weigh over 200 pounds and put thousands of miles on tall-size european lugged-steel road-bikes riding, racing and standing up while going up hills and never had a problem.
European lugged steel frames? I thought all you could afford was American crap because you were "too cheap and impoverished?"
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Old 05-26-22, 07:40 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by chip.hedler
The Gitane that was mentioned in a previous post was a club model with Reynolds main tubes. I rode it for about a year, but the frame was just too flexy when really turning the power on.
Once had a customer come into the bike shop who was a tall weightlifter. He complained that all the bikes he'd tried out felt to him as if they were built out of overcooked spaghetti. Cannondale had just come out with their first bike model the year before, so I sent him out on a test ride on one. Ten minutes later, he came back and bought the Cannondale.

He stopped by the shop a couple of weeks later to say, "I love this bike. You get any other big guys in here looking for bikes, tell them to buy a Cannondale. Or you can give them my number. I'll tell them."
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Old 05-26-22, 08:13 AM
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The flex made for a very comfortable ride--cushioned the shock of routine bumps very nicely--but if someone accelerated off the front and I wanted to stay with them, a portion of my initial burst of energy would be absorbed in the flex, creating a lag in my response. That meant I had to work harder to keep from getting dropped (hard enough for me already!) Over the course of a ride, repeatedly paying that penalty meant less energy in reserve if I wanted to break away. That certainly seems to be the rationale for serious competition frames to be beefier and have more rigid geometry.
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