Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Un Mysterié Française: What have I gotten into again?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Un Mysterié Française: What have I gotten into again?

Old 09-21-22, 02:26 PM
  #1  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts
Un Mysterié Française: What have I gotten into again?

So I bought this mystery frame from eBay, bit of an impulse purchase really.

All I know about it a this point:

-Really small: 49x46 or in the ballpark (see pics) I'm 5,3" / 160 cm with short legs and struggling to stand over my 650B-converted 50cm Rossin
-Camus 779 tubing transfer: non-fancy, seamed straight gauge tubing. Weigh as per the seller is: frame 2088gr fork 688gr
-Simplex dropouts and forkends
-French threaded everything
-Spidel "fixed" BB cup, points to the 1970's?
-"2044" marking in two spots, bottom of BB shell and steerer tube

So what might it be? Maybe made by one of France's once hundreds of bikeshops/small time (frame)builders?


Pics provided by the seller





It's pretty little frameset with some interesting details, as long is I don't know the manufacturer I'll call it Albert after the author whose last name it bears
Krov9 is offline  
Likes For Krov9:
Old 09-21-22, 02:28 PM
  #2  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts

How it arrived: Ouch! 😵

As flat-pack as it gets

A standard canti stud for scale


Simplex dropouts with long slots and bent chain tensioner screws

Short seat tube, Spidel BB

Marking "2044" underneath BB shell and on the steerer


The brake mounts contain a M8 nut welded inside, looking for appropriately threaded studs

Checking alignment - after arriving like that, I had my doubts!
Krov9 is offline  
Old 09-21-22, 02:30 PM
  #3  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts

For center of seat tube


26,0 seatpost won't fit so I'm guessing 1" or in the ballpark


What I've been able to gather about the tubeset online




The manufacturer/distributor of the tubes, AMR = Atelier Maison Rouge ("red house workshop"?) also built bikes - although they seem mostly to have featured windowed lugs and a different type of seat cluster.

Here's some info on Camus tubing and AMR
https://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclecrank/2158408423/
Krov9 is offline  
Old 09-21-22, 03:12 PM
  #4  
non-fixie 
Shifting is fun!
 
non-fixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 11,003

Bikes: Yes, please.

Mentioned: 277 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2182 Post(s)
Liked 4,526 Times in 1,743 Posts
Can't help with the ID, but I like it. Nice find! Are those stud mounts for cantilever brakes or for centerpull brakes?

And thank you for posting the Camus documentation. Apparently that was used by Méral as well and, if I'm to believe mrs non-fixie, they at least made very nice bikes with it.
__________________
Are we having fun, or what ...



non-fixie is offline  
Likes For non-fixie:
Old 09-21-22, 10:41 PM
  #5  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts
Originally Posted by non-fixie
Can't help with the ID, but I like it. Nice find! Are those stud mounts for cantilever brakes or for centerpull brakes?

And thank you for posting the Camus documentation. Apparently that was used by Méral as well and, if I'm to believe mrs non-fixie, they at least made very nice bikes with it.
Thanks for the reply! Norris Lockley (see Flickr link above) states:

"They were extremely easy to work and brazed and welded readily . The alloy steels used were less technically complicated more predictable and less demanding than many of those of their their competitors. [...] The series of tubes were very popular with many custom builders, as they facilitated the production of unusual and often avantgarde frames at very reasonable cost."
--> so not very special in terms of weight or metallurgy, but still used by custom builders due to other features 😯

I found the documentation by scooping French forums (TonTon Veló, VelosRetroCourse...) with the help of Google Translate 😃

My initial guess for the brakes would be Mafac "2000" or something similar, but I'm not sure about anything just yet. Despite it's size, it seems that the frame was built (either) for 700C wheelsize with cantis or maybe 650B with centerpulls, since they would require the studs to be mounted higher 🤔
Krov9 is offline  
Old 09-25-22, 05:27 AM
  #6  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts
I haven't had time yet to figure out if the posts are intended for cantilever- or centerpull brakes.

If they would be spaced for cantis with 700c wheels, I'm thinking whether they could be adapted to be used with centerpulls and 26" wheels? Unlikely, but theoretically possible, I suppose. Converting to a smaller wheelsize should also give more tire clearence, but I am aware of the potential pitfalls of going from 28" (622 mm) to 26" (559 mm).

Also I just realized I had written the brake post mount threading as M8 but it's actually M6! Luckily, after doing some reading online, I should be able to scavenge a pair of old RockShox suspension forks that surprisingly used to come with brake posts of that size
Krov9 is offline  
Old 09-25-22, 09:13 AM
  #7  
scarlson 
Senior Member
 
scarlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 2,090

Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, René Herse tandem

Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 963 Post(s)
Liked 1,448 Times in 722 Posts
They look like they might be mounts for Jeay brakes. These were cam-actuated and came with m6 stud/bolts. The thing that doesn't make sense for Jeay brakes is that your mounts have holes for the springs, and Jeay brakes didn't use that kind of spring. But could be something like this. There were lots of little French brands of brakes that used m6 stud-bolts instead of studs on the frame.



If you reckon they might work, they are still cheap enough on ebay, not being associated with the dread RH.
__________________
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
scarlson is offline  
Likes For scarlson:
Old 09-25-22, 10:44 PM
  #8  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts
Originally Posted by scarlson
They look like they might be mounts for Jeay brakes. These were cam-actuated and came with m6 stud/bolts. The thing that doesn't make sense for Jeay brakes is that your mounts have holes for the springs, and Jeay brakes didn't use that kind of spring. But could be something like this. There were lots of little French brands of brakes that used m6 stud-bolts instead of studs on the frame.



If you reckon they might work, they are still cheap enough on ebay, not being associated with the dread RH.
Wow, thanks! Those things looks ancient! I'd be surprised to find them in anything more recent than the 50's, and if the Spidel bb is original, my frame would date to the 70's-80's.

Accroding to the VeloBase article on Jeay brakes,

"The studs are specific to this type of brake, positioned higher on the fork and seat stays than cantilever studs, and lower than centerpull brakes, making a bike compatible with only this type of brake."

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.a...=117&AbsPos=73

IF that would be the case, I wonder if switching wheel sizes could allow a more modern/reliable/easily obtainable brake configuration?

BTW I already found a German retailer that sells M6 brake posts as replacements for 90's suspension forks 😃 should do the trick in case I end up needing them.
Krov9 is offline  
Old 09-26-22, 05:35 AM
  #9  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts

Brazing's not that great over there

I did some research, and these particular dropouts (or ones much like them) can be found in the Simplex 1975 catalogue as well as the 1977 catalogue, but not in the 1974 catalogue. That dates my frame as being made in 1975-


Simplex - Product Sheets (09-1975)
Krov9 is offline  
Old 09-26-22, 01:38 PM
  #10  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,977
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1162 Post(s)
Liked 2,542 Times in 1,065 Posts
Those brake braze-ons are lower than the rim or I'm a monkey's uncle. I'm 97.5% sure those are for canti brakes.
I'm 82% sure Mafacs (or any other modern brand of any nationality) will work, though you'll have to supply the 8 mm shaft, in the form of a bushing. Some precision is needed in cutting the bushing to length. It needs to be just a few thousandths longer than the brake bushing, for the brake to pivot freely without slop. This fit can be arrived at with no measuring equipment, by just grinding down the end of the bushing a little at a time between test-fits.

Mark B

Last edited by bulgie; 09-26-22 at 01:42 PM.
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 09-26-22, 10:44 PM
  #11  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts
Originally Posted by bulgie
Those brake braze-ons are lower than the rim or I'm a monkey's uncle. I'm 97.5% sure those are for canti brakes.
I'm 82% sure Mafacs (or any other modern brand of any nationality) will work, though you'll have to supply the 8 mm shaft, in the form of a bushing. Some precision is needed in cutting the bushing to length. It needs to be just a few thousandths longer than the brake bushing, for the brake to pivot freely without slop. This fit can be arrived at with no measuring equipment, by just grinding down the end of the bushing a little at a time between test-fits.

Mark B
Hi Mark, thanks for the suggestions! What material would you suggest for the bushing: brass, plastic?

I haven't measured the distance between the post mounts yet, but that should also be an indicator. Old cantis used to be located closer together than modern ones intended for wide tire mtb-s.

"These brakes configure as mid-arm on wide bosses but may also be used as wide-arm brakes on narrow spaced bosses" https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=144236

I read somewhere that people have in such a manner gotten the humble, ubiquitous Shimano Altus cantis to work with the narrower spacing, but if my budget allows, I would hope to find something more period-correct.

These NOS CLB's, for example, have some good features, but the finish is not one of them... it's just hideous

Last edited by Krov9; 09-26-22 at 10:48 PM.
Krov9 is offline  
Old 09-27-22, 12:09 AM
  #12  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,977
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1162 Post(s)
Liked 2,542 Times in 1,065 Posts
Originally Posted by Krov9
What material would you suggest for the bushing: brass, plastic?
Oh steel, definitely. You need strength but especially rigidity. The bolts need to be really tight and they'll be compressing the bushing, causing it to bulge out. Anything with less rigidity than steel will bulge out too much and bind up the brake. The bushing I envision is only 1 mm thick (ID = 6 mm, OD = 8 mm). Probably can be made from 8 mm tubing. 5/16" tubing maybe could work but it's slightly undersized (7.94 mm nominal) which I think is probably too loose a fit, though tubing is sometimes a bit larger than its nominal dimension so if you have some 5/16" tubing, you could measure and see.

Oh I just realized the best would be not a separate bolt and bushing, but rather a shoulder bolt, M6 thread but 8 mm shoulder diameter, with the shoulder length set just that little bit longer than the brake bushing. I don't know how likely you are to find the perfect shoulder bolts; maybe you'll luck out and it's a standard shoulder length. Maybe it'll need to be a custom machining job. Measure your brakes and see if one of those standard lengths of shoulders that McMaster sells can be made to work, possibly with shimming up or machining down the brake bushing.

Not necessarily easy, but the only other solution I see involves brazing, with repainting needed afterward, at least locally around the braze-ons.

I'm now close to 100% sure that shoulder bolts is how those braze-ons are meant to be used. The bolts would have come with the brakes, brakes that were meant to go on this type of braze-on. A type of brake that is vanishingly rare anymore, so looking for the right brake is probably a losing proposition. I'm thinking LeFol cantis maybe? But I've never actually seen those, just heard about them, maybe seen pictures. As yes here we go:

Photo stolen from here Lefol - no. 41 cantilever brakes

But you don't need LeFol brakes, you just need Mafac (or Dia-Compe or whatever), and the correct shoulder bolt to fit whatever brake you use.

I'd offer to help you, either chosing the right bolt or custom machining something, but I'm about to embark on a journey that's going to keep me away from my shop for a while. Probably couldn't help you until early next year.

Good luck!

Last edited by bulgie; 09-27-22 at 12:13 AM.
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 09-27-22, 02:19 AM
  #13  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts
Wow, you really considered this in detail! I hope that will help others too

Could you just this once explain to me like I'm simple, why couldn't I just screw in something like this, install a set of cantis and call it a day?

https://www.roambikeshop.com/product...t-242928-1.htm
Krov9 is offline  
Old 09-27-22, 02:39 AM
  #14  
bulgie 
blahblahblah chrome moly
 
bulgie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,977
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1162 Post(s)
Liked 2,542 Times in 1,065 Posts
Originally Posted by Krov9
Wow, you really considered this in detail! I hope that will help others too

Could you just this once explain to me like I'm simple, why couldn't I just screw in something like this, install a set of cantis and call it a day?

https://www.roambikeshop.com/product...t-242928-1.htm
Wrong thread, I think. Unless they make those with an M6 thread. I'm pretty sure that thread at the bottom is larger.

But maybe you can open up those holes in the braze-ons and tap them to whaever that bigger thread is on those thread-in posts. If there's enough metal in the braze-ons to hold, could work. I suspect the braze-on bases are too small and thin to tap to the bigger thread though. Maybe backed up with a sort of nut from the backside though? I'd have to have the thing in my hands to know, but I'm not the only guy who's handy with tools — do you have any good and clever mechanic or machinist you can bring this to?

There are some who would say you shouldn't modify the frame like that though. Like if this is some super-interesting historical oddity. I dunno if it's anything that really needs to stay original, but since the shoulder-bolt idea would keep it original, maybe you should at least consider that before Drew-ing it. Though I am not one of those people that feels like its a religion or something. Your bike, do as you please.

EDIT: well shut my mouth, I just looked closer at your link, and they list two models, and one says M6. I think that means it would thread right in on your frame! So maybe all this armchair theorizing was a waste of time, just buy those parts and thread 'em in!

Mark B

Last edited by bulgie; 09-27-22 at 02:45 AM.
bulgie is offline  
Likes For bulgie:
Old 10-18-22, 11:43 PM
  #15  
Krov9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Krov9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 141
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 56 Post(s)
Liked 45 Times in 25 Posts
Update:

After discussing the brake bosses over at Bicycle Mechanics,

Btw. I was finally able to identify what ever weird bosses were on my frame - never seen anything similar

Turns out they're MAFAC "Jacky" bosses!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/431553...57677101234090

https://flic.kr/p/ZXXz4K
This affirms that despite being made for 700C wheels my Camus-built frame was indeed a juvenile model. As Andy mentioned over there, Jacky was kind of a "kids' version" of the Criterium that I was going to replace them with, once I figure out the "post issue".

Speaking of which, the alternatives are
1. replace/respace/reposition the bosses according to whatever brake/wheel combo I'd end up with and repaint the seatstays
2. Fit the existing bosses with M6 canti studs made for RockShox/Magura etc. suspension forks (this will most likely be my initial, at least temporary solution)
3. Cut off the welds on the M6 nuts integrated in the Jacky bosses and replace them with M8 nuts (that might fit). This would allow the use of standard canti studs/posts.
4. Scavenge a set of canti studs, cut off the male threaded part, screw in M6 bolts like removable BMX brake posts
5. Speaking of BMX, these or something similar might be used to replace the thread-in Jacky posts, if the critical dimensions happened to match https://www.flybikes.com/storage/pro...10c1639759.jpg

This NOS Solida 150mm 116BCD 3-arm crankset from French boutique Cycling-Vintage would be a good fit, but it's priced for its rarity, not its quality (or the lack of, in this case)


There was also a comparable product from Ofmega on eBay, but despite how much I enjoy the look of 3-arm cranks, affordable replacement rings for 116BCD are becoming increasing scarce, so I'll probably settle with a clear anodized taiwanese 5-arm set.

With much of the "good stuff" in my stash on the Rossin, I think I'll dissassemble the Mercier mixte to build up this frame and probably put the Mercier frameset for sale. I always felt kind of unstable on it. Regardless of saddle height it's probably just a tad too big (and flexy).

Last edited by Krov9; 10-19-22 at 12:04 AM.
Krov9 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.