newbert

I'm giving serious thought to upgrading my Catrike Villager to a new trike in a few months, and I want this new trike to be my "forever" trike, so I'll spare (almost) no expense.

One of the situations I sometimes find myself in is having to make a sudden stop when I'm in a high gear. In a situation like that, not having a throttle can make it difficult to get going again. From what I know, either an e-motor with throttle (such as Bafang middrive <I prefer mid-drives>) OR an internally geared hub (like a Rohloff, which allows you to shift gears when stopped) would solve this problem, right?.

If so, what are the plusses/minusses of each? And does it ever make sense to have BOTH installed on a tadpole trike?

Thanks!

linberl

Utah Trikes - ICE Adventure FS HD Motorized Trike with Shimano ESTEPS - one example.

newbert

Thanks for that link! Nicely-equipped trike. I wonder how much it costs.

Also - what does the Rohloff hub add (other than easy shifting) if you already have a throottle which can get you going in any gear anyway?

Thanks again.

rydabent

My electric trike has torque assist. It has settings from 0 to 9. I pretty much ride on a 2 setting. But then it also has a throttle lever. I often use it on start up from a stop to help get going.

So basically I have the best of both worlds. And I recommend both.

linberl

I agree about a throttle. Even if you don't use it often to take off, it can (and has been for me) a life saver in situations where a car makes it necessary for you to move out of the way FAST, much faster than you could instantly pedal. I consider a throttle a safety device. Now whether it is redundant to an IGH, I would guess the constant throttle starts impact battery range somewhat so that might be a good reason to go IGH .... assuming you will do almost all your take-offs manually. But I thought IGH has other advantages (never had one) like being able to dial in gears anywhere within your range rather than being stuck with set gaps. Or is that only some IGH?

DeadGrandpa

I can't say anything about using a throttle but I can offer a little info (I found it on the internet) about the Rohlof and another IGH hub, the Enviolo, available on some ICE models:

https://www.icetrikes.co/19-news-and...r-changing-hub

The Rohlof can be shifted when sitting still, so you're never stuck in a high gear at a stop. The gear range is 500% over 14 speeds, which are reportedly spaced fairly evenly (according to various YouTube videos I've seen).

The Enviolo is an automatic shifter based on the cadence preference you establish during the initial setup. There are no distinct gears (as with the Rohlof); the drive ratio is constantly changing so as to be the perfect amount at a constant cadence. The range spread is 380%.

The advantage of the two IGH hubs is allegedly little maintenance required, and also a higher clearance for the bottommost part of the chain. There is a chain tensioner in place of the derailleur.

The disadvantage of the IGH is the weight and the cost. The Enviolo, being a fairly new product (so far as I know) doesn't have a track record for reliability, but the Rohlof is reportedly very reliable. I hope this helps.

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Leisesturm

As much as I like the concept of human power and all that. At a certain point of cost/benefit ... get a car. Can't/won't drive? Uber or Lyft. There are 'green modes' on both where you can specify hybrid or electric vehicles. I know because I do it when (rarely) I need Lyft. A rohloff hub is around $1500 and a 500% gear range is not impressive even if they will say it is. Of course they will but your average triple crank plus 8sp - 12sp cassette is over 600%, half the weight, and 1/10 the cost. I also don't know how much e-assist torque a Rohloff can handle. It can probably do it if you are gentle but if you goose your mid-drive and crumple a cog on a 9sp cassette you aren't going to need therapy because of it. The practical e-assist trike does not make you think to yourself "a ten year old sedan would be cheaper".

newbert

.....But a 10 year old sedan provides ZERO exercise. And before you say "but e-assist reduces effort/exercise too" - Only if you let it. For older riders like me, its a necessity, and it allows for much longer rides.

linberl

i've been without a car and riding my e-assist bike friday for 2 years and now riding my e-assist trike for about a year. it all depends on where you live but where i live, it works out great. Benefits - no parking hassles, i get places almost as fast as congested traffic, i am not constantly damaging roadways, i am more environmentally friendly (not perfect as all batteries have issues but smaller batteries = fewer issues), and i have save a ridiculous amount of money. Also, i am able to maintain my fitness level when riding errands as well as recreationally. Negatives; we don't have much bad weather in the Bay Area and it only lasts a few days but i do have to plan around it, if i go places with friends we go in their cars or i meet them, I get a Gig car once in a while when I need to go places out of town. That's more than covered by the annual savings of not owning a car. There are folks around me who have replaced a 2d car with a cargo bike, and it works the same way for them. But it probably wouldn't work if your weather sucks or you have huge distances between things. i do 20 miles every day and that literally takes me thru 4 cities, lol.

Leisesturm

I've been car free for decades, equally because it is cheaper and it is good for the planet. I would (and did) get e-assist OR an IGH but not both, because neither is inexpensive and a $2k+ trike, $500+ mid-drive, $500+ battery, $1500 IGH, and $$$ labor to put it all together = car (IMO). Just came in from 9 miles in driving rain. A rain shroud for the trike (if I ever get a trike) would be worth more to me than an Igh.

linberl

I've look at some of the trike rain things, and I think if you get wind with the rain, it would not only create a drag but the rain would come in the sides at an angle. if I lived where it rained a lot, I'd consider a closed velomobile type solution. Sun canopies make more sense to me (although i still think there would be a wind penalty) but a rain canopy just doesn't excite me, not even the ones with the clear plastic sides. maybe you have seen something better??

Moe Zhoost

The argument that "If you're going to spend that much, you should probably just buy a car" strikes me as a bit off because it narrows the focus down to just transportation. In fact, there are many other factors that would lead a person to spend money on a trike instead of a car. Hobbies are like that and one's passions are not likely to be distilled down to comparative price. When I'm out on the lake rowing, I see boats costing tens of thousands of dollars being used to haul in a few pounds of fish. The point is that we invest money in our passions just for the joy of the experience.

In response to the OP:

I installed a mid-drive motor on my wife's bike a few years ago and included a throttle. She pretty much uses it just for the reason you state: to get started after stopping or to scoot quickly when the need arises. That said, I'm planning on adding a mid-drive motor to my trike sometime this year and will probably not install a throttle for 2 reasons: 1) I have to think that with just a bit of planning when coming to a stop, one can assure being in a suitable gear for re-starting, at least most of the time. 2) It's one more thing to install on the limited steering bar space. A third reason is that in some jurisdictions, throttles are prohibited on some paths.

I happen to like IGHs, and have them on a number of my bikes. It is true that they have much less of a gear range than a derailleur system; however with e-assist, that should not be a significant issue except at the high end. One issue is that they have definite torque limits that will restrict your lower end gearing. As long as the gearing restrictions don't affect your riding style, I think you'll definitely enjoy having an IGH. I'm strongly considering installing an IGH when I do my mid-drive conversion, though I'm thinking about a hybrid hub: the Sturmey Archer CS-RK3. It's a 3 speed hub that accepts a 9 speed cassette. It seems to me to be a nice lower cost option that gives me a reasonable gearing range while making up for the loss of the triple chain set.

If I were to buy a new trike and money was not an important factor, I'd go with an ICE Adventure with full suspension, the Shimano STEPS EP8 e-assist package, and a Rohloff in the rear. But then again the MSRP of $12.5 K would buy a lot of fish at the market.

Good luck to your quest.

newbert

Moe - OP here. Thanks for bringing this thread back on point. And thanks for your thoughts and recommendation. FWIW, which mid-drive motor with throttle did you install on your wife's bike afew years ago?

linberl

I've got a triple on my e trike and have not once left the big chain ring. My cassette is 11-32. you must have huge mountains to climb if you think you'll need that kind of range with e-assist - or you run out of power when you're riding, lol. I think you mentioned your wife's bike had the Tongsheng torque mid-drive. Since a throttle is optional with those, you could always add one later (assuming you get the right display) if you change your mind. I've been pricing them and while the Eco Cycle price isn't the cheapest, I like that they already have all the wires set up for recumbent trikes so you have the added lengths and don't have to deal with that and they have the newer bushing. I don't think you mentioned how long you wife has had it or how many miles she's put on it, I'd be curious about that in terms of durability. And finally, with the IGH you mention with the cassette, is a rear flat still a big hassle?

Moe Zhoost

Yeah, I hear ya. E-assist certainly reduces the need for a wide gearing range. I, too, have a triple on my trike and use my top:mid rings at probably 35-65%, rarely using the small ring. I do have a Capreo cassette, which raises the gearing with its 9-26 cogs. Yes, I'm planning on the TSDZ2 from EcoCycles. I think their recumbent package is well thought out. Anyhow since my Capreo cassette is wearing, which means a hub replacement since there are no replacements, I'm researching ideas. The Sturmey hub I referenced seems to be a good compromise to assure a decent range of gearing (especially on the high end with my 20" wheels). I'd mount a straight block 10 speed cassette in the rear, 11-20 if I can put one together. Again, plans are flexible.

TSDZ2 durability: Probably a bit more than a thousand miles on it so far with no issues, even with the nylon gear. Her cadence is rather slow so she tends to ride in a higher gear than I would for any condition.

Flats with IGHs are just a bit more challenging. I commuted for close to 10 years with a 5 speed Sturmey hub and recall only 3 flats. This bike also had drum brakes, which made the wheel removal even more of a hassle, though with practice it wasn't too bad. 2 of the flats were repaired without removing the wheel. I just unseated the tire on one side, pulled the tube out, and patched the hole- easy peasy. Also available are split tubes that can be inserted into a mounted wheel. Expensive, though.

Apologies to the OP for the topic detour.

Moe Zhoost

I used the Tong Sheng TSDZ2 kit that I bought from Eco Cycles. David Hall was wonderful to deal with. The TSDZ2 is a torque sensing unit that, in my opinion, gives a much more natural assist than the cadence sensing systems. The torque sensing also pretty much alleviates the need for brake lever cutouts.

linberl

Yes, apologies Newbert, for any derailing. Hopefully you find some of it informative. I did notice that Eco Cycle will program your Tongsheng initially to your stated needs. So if you just want a tiny bit of assist in the first steps or you want lots of help taking off or whatever they can do that. You can also get a programming cable and program yourself. It would be interesting to see if one could eliminate the need for a throttle for take off by the programming. But the throttle isn't expensive, anyway. When my hub system dies, I will replace with a mid drive (then i can put back my original rear wheel) and was considering the Bafang cadence, but have decided the Tongsheng with throttle will be my choice. the ability to program to my preference won me over along with the non-issue when shifting compared to a cadence system. I have looked and have not found any other torque systems for a trike that are so affordable.

tcs

The Rohloff debuted in 1998.

The Enviolo CVT hubs used to be marketed as NuVinci. They've been around since 2006.

DeadGrandpa

I apologize for my lack of knowledge, and it's not the first time I have shown (or been shown) my ignorance of various things. But in my defense, I did offer the disclaimer "as far as I know".

imstew

The famous nuvinci 171 is still available on ebay, it only has a 330% gear range is built like a tank.
Enviolo has some models that are rated for ebikes.
But, I saw on youtube an Ice trike with an automatic enviolo.

Notso_fastLane

Last time I looked at Bicycle Evolution, they had an e-WAW velomobile for sale. Pricey, yes, but it could easily be a forever ride with proper maintenance.