Clear-coat question
#26
framebuilder
Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I'm a professional frame painter (and builder and teacher too of course) that insists on doing top notch work. I don't pay too much attention nor am I critical of hobby methods of painting. They find solutions to inexpensive and home made methods of getting the job done. I have all the right equipment and paint and painting aids to do the job the best way possible. And just for the record, I have been painting for 45 years and done thousands of jobs. I can never afford to put out a job that is less than the equal of any other really good painter. The 35 years is how long I've been using House of Kolor paint. There was a bit of a learning curve using that paint instead of Imron (I still use Imron sometimes). I've also taught a few other pro frame builders how to paint as well. I figure on average it costs me about $150 for just the paint for every frame. That is not including overhead.
As I understand it, using good paint mixed in spray cans at auto paint stores works well although I've never tried it. I recommend putting a couple of coats of intermediate clear very soon after putting on your color coats. I'd let that harden very well and then wet sand it with 600 grit. Now you have a hardened surface to put on masking tape of any kind to orient your decals. As you've noted, you only have one shot to do it right. I always mark the masking tape so there is no mistake on where to place the decals. Then I apply the final clears. I doubt you have the resources to do this but the show quality way to clear decals, is to put multiple clear coats with sanding in-between so that the final thinned out clears leave no bumps on the decal edges. If your final clears do not have that high wet look gloss, there are ways to polish it out until it does. That process is for another post another time.
As I understand it, using good paint mixed in spray cans at auto paint stores works well although I've never tried it. I recommend putting a couple of coats of intermediate clear very soon after putting on your color coats. I'd let that harden very well and then wet sand it with 600 grit. Now you have a hardened surface to put on masking tape of any kind to orient your decals. As you've noted, you only have one shot to do it right. I always mark the masking tape so there is no mistake on where to place the decals. Then I apply the final clears. I doubt you have the resources to do this but the show quality way to clear decals, is to put multiple clear coats with sanding in-between so that the final thinned out clears leave no bumps on the decal edges. If your final clears do not have that high wet look gloss, there are ways to polish it out until it does. That process is for another post another time.
#27
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...Doug, you would be suitably horrified at some of my experiments along these lines. My only defense is that, in the process, I've managed to get some exceptional colors, using stuff that I can source locally. I do have a small compressor and a couple of guns (not great guns, but workable guns about the level of what you can get at Harbor Freight.) So with enough fiddling and experiment on practice pipes, I can spray almost anything out there in the back yard, in the shade.
That, and I work for cheap.
...Doug, you would be suitably horrified at some of my experiments along these lines. My only defense is that, in the process, I've managed to get some exceptional colors, using stuff that I can source locally. I do have a small compressor and a couple of guns (not great guns, but workable guns about the level of what you can get at Harbor Freight.) So with enough fiddling and experiment on practice pipes, I can spray almost anything out there in the back yard, in the shade.
That, and I work for cheap.
#28
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Doug.. I understand completely where your at. I've heard of you and your excellent work. I really appreciate you stepping into this discussion to share what you can(the interest in teaching coming out..). Given the depth of what you know, I imagine anything you release to the world is, and has to be, stunning. No doubt it isn't easy to bring your standard process down to the very base level that I'm at. It sounds like you've been doing what you do for about as long as I've been riding.
When I started this I knew I had two bikes, both Lemond Poprads..one recently purchased..(lets call it a rescue from riding the streets of Chicago)..in neglected condition with factory paint job and a second that was repainted at some point for some unknown reason prior to me buying it. The bike was and is in excellent mechanical condition, but it is...ugly. Bikes are fun and should look..fun. Life is too short to ride an ugly bike.
I knew I didn't want to powder coat the frames. I knew I didn't want to go with a hardware store rattle cans. I wasn't going to setup a semi-pro paint shop. So custom mixed and loaded rattle can auto paint is the path for me. I have a reasonable amount of experience painting various things with rattle cans, just not with this level of raw materials. I have no doubt both bikes will look 200% better than where they started. I'll make every effort to make it 300% better. I do like the intermediate clear route as it locks in all the work I've done up to that point and gets to that point fairly fast(weather is so variable here and I can only paint outside). If I can get to the intermediate clear point without messing anything up, the remaining sanding, decaling, and final clear coats should be fairly simple. In the remaining life of these bikes (my life at least) an extra can of clear is minimal.
This is a (rough, Powerpoint) mockup of the first bike I'll paint. White goes on first, then mask the frame and fork up after 2-3 hours and paint the blue. Masking gets pulled off within a few minutes after the blue goes on. Then intermediate clear within 30 minutes or so. At least that the plan at this stage.
When I started this I knew I had two bikes, both Lemond Poprads..one recently purchased..(lets call it a rescue from riding the streets of Chicago)..in neglected condition with factory paint job and a second that was repainted at some point for some unknown reason prior to me buying it. The bike was and is in excellent mechanical condition, but it is...ugly. Bikes are fun and should look..fun. Life is too short to ride an ugly bike.
I knew I didn't want to powder coat the frames. I knew I didn't want to go with a hardware store rattle cans. I wasn't going to setup a semi-pro paint shop. So custom mixed and loaded rattle can auto paint is the path for me. I have a reasonable amount of experience painting various things with rattle cans, just not with this level of raw materials. I have no doubt both bikes will look 200% better than where they started. I'll make every effort to make it 300% better. I do like the intermediate clear route as it locks in all the work I've done up to that point and gets to that point fairly fast(weather is so variable here and I can only paint outside). If I can get to the intermediate clear point without messing anything up, the remaining sanding, decaling, and final clear coats should be fairly simple. In the remaining life of these bikes (my life at least) an extra can of clear is minimal.
This is a (rough, Powerpoint) mockup of the first bike I'll paint. White goes on first, then mask the frame and fork up after 2-3 hours and paint the blue. Masking gets pulled off within a few minutes after the blue goes on. Then intermediate clear within 30 minutes or so. At least that the plan at this stage.
#29
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...you can do this. Here's another, more traditional repaint from the back yard, under the shade tree.
#30
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Nice work. Lots of details to attend to.
The second bike I'll paint will be either orange or a rust color. Haven't decided yet. For some reason the current one had to be blue/white..no idea why.
The second bike I'll paint will be either orange or a rust color. Haven't decided yet. For some reason the current one had to be blue/white..no idea why.
#31
framebuilder
Doug.. I understand completely where your at. I've heard of you and your excellent work. I really appreciate you stepping into this discussion to share what you can(the interest in teaching coming out..). Given the depth of what you know, I imagine anything you release to the world is, and has to be, stunning. No doubt it isn't easy to bring your standard process down to the very base level that I'm at. It sounds like you've been doing what you do for about as long as I've been riding.
When I started this I knew I had two bikes, both Lemond Poprads..one recently purchased..(lets call it a rescue from riding the streets of Chicago)..in neglected condition with factory paint job and a second that was repainted at some point for some unknown reason prior to me buying it. The bike was and is in excellent mechanical condition, but it is...ugly. Bikes are fun and should look..fun. Life is too short to ride an ugly bike.
I knew I didn't want to powder coat the frames. I knew I didn't want to go with a hardware store rattle cans. I wasn't going to setup a semi-pro paint shop. So custom mixed and loaded rattle can auto paint is the path for me. I have a reasonable amount of experience painting various things with rattle cans, just not with this level of raw materials. I have no doubt both bikes will look 200% better than where they started. I'll make every effort to make it 300% better. I do like the intermediate clear route as it locks in all the work I've done up to that point and gets to that point fairly fast(weather is so variable here and I can only paint outside). If I can get to the intermediate clear point without messing anything up, the remaining sanding, decaling, and final clear coats should be fairly simple. In the remaining life of these bikes (my life at least) an extra can of clear is minimal.
This is a (rough, Powerpoint) mockup of the first bike I'll paint. White goes on first, then mask the frame and fork up after 2-3 hours and paint the blue. Masking gets pulled off within a few minutes after the blue goes on. Then intermediate clear within 30 minutes or so. At least that the plan at this stage.
When I started this I knew I had two bikes, both Lemond Poprads..one recently purchased..(lets call it a rescue from riding the streets of Chicago)..in neglected condition with factory paint job and a second that was repainted at some point for some unknown reason prior to me buying it. The bike was and is in excellent mechanical condition, but it is...ugly. Bikes are fun and should look..fun. Life is too short to ride an ugly bike.
I knew I didn't want to powder coat the frames. I knew I didn't want to go with a hardware store rattle cans. I wasn't going to setup a semi-pro paint shop. So custom mixed and loaded rattle can auto paint is the path for me. I have a reasonable amount of experience painting various things with rattle cans, just not with this level of raw materials. I have no doubt both bikes will look 200% better than where they started. I'll make every effort to make it 300% better. I do like the intermediate clear route as it locks in all the work I've done up to that point and gets to that point fairly fast(weather is so variable here and I can only paint outside). If I can get to the intermediate clear point without messing anything up, the remaining sanding, decaling, and final clear coats should be fairly simple. In the remaining life of these bikes (my life at least) an extra can of clear is minimal.
This is a (rough, Powerpoint) mockup of the first bike I'll paint. White goes on first, then mask the frame and fork up after 2-3 hours and paint the blue. Masking gets pulled off within a few minutes after the blue goes on. Then intermediate clear within 30 minutes or so. At least that the plan at this stage.
Another advantage of doing an intermediate clear is because after wet sanding, it is a great base for the final clear to go on super smooth.
#32
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You might want to consider painting the blue 1st sine the fine line blue stripe will be easier to mask with a single piece of tape. I use fine line tape from 3M because it has clean edges unlike regular masking tape. Good luck with masking the color transitions at an angle. I've done it because the customer requested it but the masking tape doesn't want to lay flat and it takes some coaxing for it stay put and not have the next color leak underneath.
Another advantage of doing an intermediate clear is because after wet sanding, it is a great base for the final clear to go on super smooth.
Another advantage of doing an intermediate clear is because after wet sanding, it is a great base for the final clear to go on super smooth.
As for the angles..I'm using 1/4 inch 3M fine line auto-painters (vinyl) tape for all the painted edges. I've been practicing a bit with cheap 6mm blue masking tape. If you stick two pieces of (6 inch) tape together at 90 degrees and place the point of that 90 on the center of the (top) tube, both pieces of tape wrap around the bar and cross (ideally with even wrapping) at the centerpoint of the bar on the opposite side. The tape ends are then trimmed with an exacto knife to yield a good point. Even cheap masking tape seems to lay flat. I'm practicing to get better at this. I'm hoping/thinking the vinyl painters tape will lay flatter still(using fingernail to press the edges) and provide a good paint line. I've watched videos of guys masking fine-line flames on motorcycle gas tanks. The (1/8th inch in their case) tape seems to lay very well with tight radius loops. As the tape-crossing angle gets greater than 90 degrees the taped angle on the bar gets shorter(easier to accomplish?) up to the limit of 180 degrees tape-crossing where it's effectively the same as wrapping a single piece of tape around the tube at 90 degrees to the run of the tube.
That's the plan at least (could be a student's folly). If I mess up the paint lines on the angles then the fall back is to just wrap tape around the tubes at 90 degrees and have a hard transition from blue to white..repaint as needed.
#33
framebuilder
Ya..I've been flipping back and forth between white first and blue first..lack of experience. Blue first probably would be easier.
As for the angles..I'm using 1/4 inch 3M fine line auto-painters (vinyl) tape for all the painted edges. I've been practicing a bit with cheap 6mm blue masking tape. If you stick two pieces of (6 inch) tape together at 90 degrees and place the point of that 90 on the center of the (top) tube, both pieces of tape wrap around the bar and cross (ideally with even wrapping) at the centerpoint of the bar on the opposite side. The tape ends are then trimmed with an exacto knife to yield a good point. Even cheap masking tape seems to lay flat. I'm practicing to get better at this. I'm hoping/thinking the vinyl painters tape will lay flatter still(using fingernail to press the edges) and provide a good paint line. I've watched videos of guys masking fine-line flames on motorcycle gas tanks. The (1/8th inch in their case) tape seems to lay very well with tight radius loops. As the tape-crossing angle gets greater than 90 degrees the taped angle on the bar gets shorter(easier to accomplish?) up to the limit of 180 degrees tape-crossing where it's effectively the same as wrapping a single piece of tape around the tube at 90 degrees to the run of the tube.
That's the plan at least (could be a student's folly). If I mess up the paint lines on the angles then the fall back is to just wrap tape around the tubes at 90 degrees and have a hard transition from blue to white..repaint as needed.
As for the angles..I'm using 1/4 inch 3M fine line auto-painters (vinyl) tape for all the painted edges. I've been practicing a bit with cheap 6mm blue masking tape. If you stick two pieces of (6 inch) tape together at 90 degrees and place the point of that 90 on the center of the (top) tube, both pieces of tape wrap around the bar and cross (ideally with even wrapping) at the centerpoint of the bar on the opposite side. The tape ends are then trimmed with an exacto knife to yield a good point. Even cheap masking tape seems to lay flat. I'm practicing to get better at this. I'm hoping/thinking the vinyl painters tape will lay flatter still(using fingernail to press the edges) and provide a good paint line. I've watched videos of guys masking fine-line flames on motorcycle gas tanks. The (1/8th inch in their case) tape seems to lay very well with tight radius loops. As the tape-crossing angle gets greater than 90 degrees the taped angle on the bar gets shorter(easier to accomplish?) up to the limit of 180 degrees tape-crossing where it's effectively the same as wrapping a single piece of tape around the tube at 90 degrees to the run of the tube.
That's the plan at least (could be a student's folly). If I mess up the paint lines on the angles then the fall back is to just wrap tape around the tubes at 90 degrees and have a hard transition from blue to white..repaint as needed.
#35
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Great info in this thread! Thanks for sharing, everyone.
3alarmer , I'm curious what you're using for primer and base coats.
3alarmer , I'm curious what you're using for primer and base coats.
I've even experimented with Testor's enamels, in the msmall spray cans from hobby shops, but by the time you buy two or three of those cans, you're almost at a price point where custom mixed from the auto paints store is a better choice. That Follis has self etching primer, then white primer, then a silver metallic, then a transparent red enamel, then decals, then Spraymax 2K clear Glamour over everything.
There are certain colors that you get by varying your primer color, like Rauler blue is accomplished by using the same blue colorcoat as Colnago, but over a rust red primer.
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#36
Senior Member
...if I could afford it, I'd use an epoxy primer. As it stands, I've been using a self etching primer in Rustoleum cans. It goes on grey, then a coat of white primer over that, within the recoat window. For the color effects I mostly try, I need a white base primer, although some of the darker stuff in metallic looks OK over the grey. The color coats come from a wide variety of sources. If I can get an exact match for what I want from House of Kolor, I buy some of that in a small enough quantity to do a frame. fork. I've also used various brands of color enamel (from Rustoleum and Krylon, for example) as my color coat.
I've even experimented with Testor's enamels, in the msmall spray cans from hobby shops, but by the time you buy two or three of those cans, you're almost at a price point where custom mixed from the auto paints store is a better choice. That Follis has self etching primer, then white primer, then a silver metallic, then a transparent red enamel, then decals, then Spraymax 2K clear Glamour over everything.
There are certain colors that you get by varying your primer color, like Rauler blue is accomplished by using the same blue colorcoat as Colnago, but over a rust red primer.
I've even experimented with Testor's enamels, in the msmall spray cans from hobby shops, but by the time you buy two or three of those cans, you're almost at a price point where custom mixed from the auto paints store is a better choice. That Follis has self etching primer, then white primer, then a silver metallic, then a transparent red enamel, then decals, then Spraymax 2K clear Glamour over everything.
There are certain colors that you get by varying your primer color, like Rauler blue is accomplished by using the same blue colorcoat as Colnago, but over a rust red primer.
#37
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That sounds like a solid plan for separating the blue and white. I just wanted to make sure you understood that it can be a challenge. Practicing so you can figure out how to overcome difficulties will help insure a good finished product. The painting learning curve never flattens out, it just gets less steep and then they change paint formulas and your curve steepens again. Good luck.
It worked! At least it looks very good. Thanks again Doug for taking the time to helping me out!
The pic below is the base paint before the 2k Clear Glamour topcoats.
The day was getting long(about 4:30, 3 days ago) and I was fighting the temp..dropping. It was about 67-68 degrees when I shot the last coat of white (painted blue first, then white). Probably due to the temp, but I had a slight "pull" of the white paint at the downtube-headtube joint that showed blue through the white. (I touched it up with a artist's brush..can't even see the touch up now.) Otherwise, everything else looked good. I stopped at that point and didn't shoot the clear coats. Since I stopped..I figured I might as well apply the decals. The next day it was dry, warm(70), and windless so did the decals and shot the clear(3+ coats, 2 cans on frame and fork). It went well.
Total, all custom-mixed/loaded automotive rattle can-Spray Max paint schedule: 2K epoxy primer, 3 coats blue basecoat where needed, 3 coats white basecoat where needed, 3+ coats Glamour Clear-gloss. Paints applied at 68-70 degrees, 50-60% humidity. 20 minutes between paint coats, 5-7 minutes between clear coats. One hour wait after final basecoat application before I taped it up with regular(house painting) green painters tape for spacing & reference marks and vinyl automotive tape for final masking (to yield crisp paint lines). Masked(blue) areas-lines had the (vinyl) tape pulled off about 10 minutes after the final white basecoat application. Respirators aside..working with automotive-grade paints is a pleasure. Very fast setup to tack-free and the fresh paint held up perfectly to tape without pulling off.
Overall..I'm very happy with it. It's not perfect, but it's pretty darn good. 1000% better than when I started. I'm reassembling the bike now. I'll post some pics when I get it done..
(The three lines on the top tube are vertical..must be a camera distortion that makes them look angled)
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