kross57

First, I was talking about what I have seen, not what you have seen. I stand by my statements.

Aluminum frames are certainly more open to kickstand damage. They are also more likely to be damaged by leaning against objects. Again, this is what I've seen. Steel frames are commonly scratched too. The scratch itself is no big deal. But scratches admit moisture, moisture causes rust and rust destroys frames.

People who don't like kickstands often bring up invalid arguments like wind. Don't want the bike on a kickstand blown over? Put it next to a solid object. Or put the kickstand on the downwind side. Easy peasy. And I can't tell you how many bikes without kickstands I've seen leaned against posts and roadsigns, that offer no protection from wind at all. Walls and solid fences don't exist everywhere.

I would really like to hear from a mountain biker who was impaled on a kickstand. I'm thinking that's a bit farfetched.

As you pointed out, a stay can be damaged by overtightening the kickstand. Don't overtighten. Problem solved.

Are we really going to discuss every mistake of every bike rider that makes them a jerk?. This is going to be a LONG conversation. Because there are plenty. Including laying down bikes where they shouldn't. It happens.

Again, there is no right or wrong. For every plus, there is a minus. ,

Road Fan

People would ride such a bike because they are fun!

thook

don't ya'll have some bike pRon to watch or something?

francophile 

homelessjoe

On high end chrome moly racing frames the wall thickness of the tubes is very thin.......the more expensive and lighter the frames.....the thiner the tubes......the manufactures recommend not installing stands on the chain stays.......they are just to thin.......they were not designed for it at all...........many old cro mo racing frames were only rated for a 135 pound rider.......when frames break they almost always break at the drive side chain stay and bottom bracket.......this is where all the stress from pedaling is concentrated........when I buy and old bike I always check this area for cracks.....this is also where most aluminum frames fail...........mountain bikes and touring bike have much much much stronger stays......but a very delicate area........

cudak888 

Under that theory, every motorcycle on a kickstand is ready to fall over as well.

Your descriptions all speak of experiences you'd get with an inferior or poorly set-up kickstand. Try the kickstand on a Social Bicycles or JUMP share bike. Ditto for a good dual-leg stand, like the Ursus Jumbo.

All arguments that presume a fairly spacious area to work with - not a shared, narrow street in the Netherlands.



No, it has to do with the undeserved legacy of kickstands within certain cycling factions. It's your belief that people don't use them in large numbers. That may be the case in the circle of riders you know, but not in the greater circle of riders in general. Certainly not within the upright bar and IGH community. EDIT: Or all of my neighbors with hybrid and comfort bikes.

Exhibit A: A mid-1990's Raleigh M-20 Mountain Trail. Fairly modified, but when the frame was given to me, there was a Greenfield kickstand already on it - and it easily cleared the FD. Didn't do a thing to that kickstand except spray it with silicone lubricant.



If you want to go off on a five page discussion to convince the world that kickstands are useless, and that Jacco knows less about bicycle courtesy in the Netherlands than you do, go ahead.

In the meantime, I have three simple (dare I say this phrase?) rules of thumb:

• Road bike? No kickstand.
• Upright bars, IGH, low-end tubing? Kickstand.
• 1930's/40's club bike? Either way - with preference for a kickstand if original, or if the chainstays are already wrecked. XPT top plate preferable to prevent further damage to tubing.

There are good stamped steel stands, like the old Wald I mentioned above. It's the worthless ones that look like this one that I was referring to. These are genuine POSes.




-Kurt

cyccommute 

So you didn’t look at the pictures or you thought they were fake or you think the people posting them are lying? Which is it? You said you’ve never seen a crushed chainstay. Those are examples of crushed chainstays.

Rust destroy steel frames. Aluminum is pretty inert to just plain water. Add salt and aluminum will corrode but that takes a fair amount of salt and a fair amount of time. Salt will also do the same to steel. But neither a steel frame nor an aluminum frame is going to fall apart due to a bit of scratching. But bikes are going to get scratched for a variety of reasons. Falling over while parked with either a kickstand or when leaned against a wall is not really all that high on the list.

”Put it next to a solid object”? Like a wall? Perhaps you should lean the bike up against the wall to keep it from falling over.

You can’t always determine which is the “downwind side”, especially here in the US Mountain West. The mountains here cause the wind to be very turbulent. It’s hard to determine which direction the wind will gust from at any given moment. It can, and does, gust from 360° throughout the day.

If there isn’t a wall or fence or something substantial to lean a bike against, I have no problem laying it on the ground. I am considerate about it when I lay a bike on the ground so that it is out of the way but I’m also considerate about standing it against a wall, fence, tree, or even a post.

Because most mountain bikers wouldn’t put a kickstand on a mountain bike while riding off-road. The rougher the terrain, the less likely you’ll find a mountain biker putting a kickstand on a mountain bike.

Nope. Not “problem solved”. People make two mistakes when it comes to kickstand installation. Either they put it on too tight to begin with...that’s a general problem that most people have when working on bike anyway...or they don’t tighten it enough. If they put it on too tight, they crush the stay. If they put it on too loose, the stand rotates and the bike falls over. When it’s too loose, they generally overreact and over tighten, crushing the stays. If the bike is an aluminum bike and the kickstand is too loose and rattles around, it erodes the soft aluminum.

Yes, it happens. But there is nothing about leaning a bike against something that makes the bike be in someone’s way more than when using a kickstand. Nor is a leaned bike more likely to fall into someone’s path so that they trip over it than a kickstanded bike is.

But leaning a bike against something is more wrong than using a kickstand, right? While I don’t agree that there is necessarily a plus for every minus, don’t go making up minuses.

cyccommute 

No. Motorcycles can fall over but their center of gravity is very low and they are also heavy enough that wind isn’t likely to blow them over. Even hurricane strength winds are unlikely to blow them over.

Tell you what: I won’t treat you like an idiot if you don’t treat me like an idiot. I know how a kickstand works. I know how to install one and how to use one. Even then, I don’t trust them to hold up a bike because I’ve had far too many of my own bikes fall over for a variety of reasons as well as seen lots of bikes with kickstands fall over. Some of those bikes that have fallen over have also fallen over due to malicious intent...usually because they are parked in the middle of a sidewalk.


Again, don’t assume I’m an idiot and I will do the same for you. Let’s talk about that “shared narrow street” shall we? Look at the bike marked by the red arrow. It’s obviously on a kickstand. The very first thing I noticed was the the bike is out in the walk way. If the bike were leaned against the wall, there would be more room for someone to walk down the sidewalk. As the bike is positioned in the picture, there is much less room to walk past it.




May I remind you that you are the one who brought up the issue of the kickstand interfering with the function of the front derailer. I didn’t say that people don’t use them. I did say that some bikes can’t be fitted with them for exactly the reason you brought up.

But, again, you brought up the issue of why kickstands don’t work on some bikes. Mid-2000s hardtails are a very different animal than that M-20. They are shorter in the rear so that the rear wheel is further up under the rider. This has a huge impact on the traction for the bike.

I didn’t say anything about JaccoW knowing more or less about bicycle courtesy. I have issues with making claims that simple aren’t true.

Well there is no real “rule of thumb”. It’s personal preference. But just because I (and many others) don’t choose your personal preference doesn’t make us “rude”, “Lance wannabes”, “idiots”, “wrong”, “stupid”, “gonna damage our bikes” or less informed than people who use kickstands.

gugie 

Here's my take on kickstands.

If you want one, put one on your bike properly. If you don't want one, don't.

I had a 3 speed Raleigh Sport with baskets that I used for grocery shopping. It had a kickstand, so I used it. Pretty convenient! I think I'll keep them off my Eroica/Cino bike, however. I don't think I'll miss it.

JaccoW

Look @cyccommute you are clearly very anti-kickstand for whatever reasons that might be. I'm a fan of them on the right bikes. I wouldn't put one on a road bike, or at least not one that crushes the chainstays like that.
I have given my reasons why I see 99% of the bikes in the Netherlands wearing kickstands (and heavy-duty motorcycle locks and most of them fenders...). The US has a different bicycle culture and infrastructure, and that's fine.

In the meantime, enjoy some loaded vintage bikes with kickstands:

cudak888 

As I said, my rule of thumb, not yours. It's personal preference.

Six quotes not attributable to my previous posts - not my arguments.

Better yet, I can have the mods look at our interaction. As both an independent party and our hosts, they can advise who's out of line.

When was the last time you saw a right-handed kickstand?

What was that thing you said about "making claims that aren't true?"




-Kurt

Siu Blue Wind

I cant believe the ire going hard in this thread over kickstands. And the name calling? Can that be left on the playground?

You guys need to reel back a little please.

bark_eater 

I think a kickstand is nessesary on any bike with luggage. Funny thing is that I picked up one of those double legged esee stands for touring bike #1 and it was a no go. I tried to put it on touring bike #2, also a no go. I then tried to put it on a 26" I blame Grant Peterson bike and again, no go. It's in a box and I plan on takeing it out when touring bike #3 gets rebuilt. #3 is a 90's Cannondale T700, and I have no expectation that the two will play well. I ended up useing esee chainstay mounted stands on two of the bikes, but needed to put VO rotation damping springs on both of them to keep the upright with handle bar bags or baskets. One perceived downside is a weird oscillation that makes rideing with no hands sketchy. Could just be the luggage though.

cudak888 

Wouldn't it be nice if the top clamp from XPT kickstands were still made? The XPT's were never that great as a stand, but they have a great top plate that pinches the stays from the inside edge - rather than smushing the stays. The chainstay bridge prevents slippage backwards.

Sure, there'd be some exceptions to fit, and they'd only work on older bikes coming into shops today, but they're a suitable, elegant solution - even if it's just for a city bicycle. I'm surprised Problem Solvers never jumped on this.

They even work if installed on a bike that was previously abused by a conventional kickstand:



I've also modified one to work on a later Raleigh Sports. These ditched the chainstay bridge for a woefully weak kickstand plate. The plate is barely study enough to resist front-to-back twisting. This eliminated the problem and looks sharp (yes, it's been sprayed black to match the rest of the bits).



-Kurt

cudak888 

Have definitely learned that virtually any double-legged stand requires a steering stabilizer spring to prevent the front end from spinning around on its own. It's not so much of a problem if the front of the bike is heavier than the rear, but given that I usually mount such stands on bikes with IGH hubs, this is rarely the case.

The oscillation is amplified by the luggage, but it'll be there without it too. It's just something one has to live with if they have a steering stabilizer installed.

-Kurt

kross57

I said I have never seen a chainstay crushed by a kickstand. I still have never seen a chainstay crushed by a kickstand. I have now seen pictures of crushed chainstays. How were they damaged? I have no idea. I know I didn't do it. As to whether you are a fake or a liar, you will have to help me out on that one. I don't know you very well.

If you have never run into a bike with rust on the frame due to a scratched finish you would be the first. Congrats!

I was not aware you live in the "US Mountain West", that magical land where there are no prevailing winds or updrafts or even weather. Where the air simply circles around and around, day in, day out. How incredible.

I believe you when you say "The rougher the terrain, the less likely you’ll find a mountain biker putting a kickstand on a mountain bike" . Rough terrain is no place to be accessorizing your bike. Do that in a shop!

I can't believe how lucky I have been since I have installed many kick stands and not ONCE has it been too tight or too loose. What a miracle! Incredibly I have also been able to install cable stops, derailleurs, shift levers and numberless other parts, fitted around frames without crushing a single tube. It defies logic.

At this point I'll finish, because, well, I have a life.

All the best!

JaccoW

That bike is leaning against the wall. Those green things with a railing on top of them are stairs to the entrance of the building. The moped on the right has the same amount of space but cannot lean and is partially obstructed by all the plants there. Both have kickstands but only the moped is using it.
Then again, it's probably Amsterdam we're seeing here, you have no business going with a car into the city center unless you live there (most choose not to buy a car) or because you are a business that only drives through to deliver something.

So that road in the middle is mostly used by cyclists and pedestrians.

cocoabeachcrab 

to be fair and honest (a seldom occurrence due to an overperforming snark gland..), i did order an upstand that was referred to on this thread for one of my bikes that has stamped dropouts... which will serve the extra benefit of offering a spacer for the QR lever side. and of course the inevitable opportunity to loose the detachable folding stand at some point in the future.

Mr. 66

Here's a guy that knows how to use a kick stand

francophile 

I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone mention these: Bolt on Kickstand Rear Axle double mount for 26" wheel, steel black with spring
Or these, similar/same: https://www.bikeberry.com/rear-axle-kickstands.html

I've seen them on bikes abroad, but maybe two total in the last couple decades here in the US?

cudak888 

Common on Flying Pigeons. A bit bendy. I wish one of the aftermarket companies would make a high-quality version of the same, perhaps in aluminum.

-Kurt

Oldairhead 

This has got me thinking. If I put a kickstand on my Bianchi L'Eroica bike would that make people love it or hate it more?

cudak888 

That reminds me that there's one hanging in an LBS. I couldn't bear to put a kickstand on something like that. I consider it a KOF road bike.

Just my personal opinion, of course.

-Kurt

tkamd73 

Its not the bikes fault, other’s would probably think way less of the owner though.
Tim