Why Did America Give Up on Mass Transit?
06-11-22, 07:15 PM
#176
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,032
Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked 1,384 Times
in
708 Posts
pretty deep how messed up the situation is.
I Googled , how many cars sold annually and it says 70,000,000 !!! The weird thing is all our jobs are directly, or indirectly connected to this business. Yes car manufacture is a business that controls the 🌎 world.
We'll have to agree to disagree, there is absolutely no connection with left/right.
Dumocraps/Republowcons. There is absolutely no difference , only the amount of campaign contibutions offered from special interest "groups ".
I Googled , how many cars sold annually and it says 70,000,000 !!! The weird thing is all our jobs are directly, or indirectly connected to this business. Yes car manufacture is a business that controls the 🌎 world.
We'll have to agree to disagree, there is absolutely no connection with left/right.
Dumocraps/Republowcons. There is absolutely no difference , only the amount of campaign contibutions offered from special interest "groups ".
06-11-22, 07:37 PM
#177
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 774
Bikes: Trek 970, Bianchi Volpe,Casati
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 356 Post(s)
Liked 120 Times
in
86 Posts
15-18m per year in the united states. 40k average, around $2,000 per year per person in new car sales. a lot, but not something we couldn’t wean ourselves from if more people saw the actual impact of using a two ton machine to move a 1/10ton human everywhere they want to go.
Boggles the mind, all polluting everday.everyday.everday.. they are in use.
I think our only solution at this point is to just repair the ones already in use. That alone would be more "green" at least there isn't the huge manufacture upstart pollution, that we will have with new EV cars. That is just another side of the same coin , ICE/ EVs , same coin. They all pollute .. we remain a car centric society .
Like you said, moving 1 person with a 4000 pound + vehicle can never be ggreen. We can phase into building cities for people , not cars, interconnect with high-speed rails, and make it bikable , or walkable from there.
I really dont see how anything like this can take place unless there is acceptance that we have been going in the wrong direction on the whole "car-society " to begin with. Good luck on that taking place....
Last edited by rossiny; 06-11-22 at 07:47 PM.
06-11-22, 08:31 PM
#178
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,811
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,017 Times
in
571 Posts
The left could have adopted a position advocating for mass transit to realize sound environmental and sociological goals, but its adoption would have threatened the expansion of the state's power. Public transit might seem to expand state power at first glance, until all the factors surrounding individual motor vehicle transit are fully considered. Anything that diminishes that without completely eliminating it, reduces the impetus for state control.
Instead, the left is betting on a state enforced transition to a disruptive technology that won't solve any problems but that will maintain everything I've mentioned. The state built the current transportation infrastructure with leftist support, and rather than conceding its flaws, the left is hoping "technology" will fix the problems.
Instead, the left is betting on a state enforced transition to a disruptive technology that won't solve any problems but that will maintain everything I've mentioned. The state built the current transportation infrastructure with leftist support, and rather than conceding its flaws, the left is hoping "technology" will fix the problems.
06-12-22, 07:08 AM
#180
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
06-12-22, 09:24 AM
#181
Senior Member
06-14-22, 05:27 PM
#182
Live not by lies.
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 1,306
Bikes: BigBox bikes.
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 860 Post(s)
Liked 784 Times
in
582 Posts
Being dependent on a car is not freedom.
The reason America has given up on mass transit or public transit for the time being, is because America is in the middle of a culture war. One side coerced the other into advocacy for petrol-fueled, privately-owned and personally-financed motor vehicles. This enabled driver licensing, vehicle registration taxes, collection of interest on bank and credit union financing, and empowered the overwhelming majority of the police state. It was just bad for the environment because of particulate and carbon emissions, and bad for society because it drove suburbanization, urban sprawl, increased congestion, traffic, and ever growing highways. Mass transit was always an alternative to those things, but its widespread adoption would upend or disrupt long-standing traditions that underpin so many mandates. Your driver's license is your fundamental ID in US society, and it's questionable whether the government has the authority to mandate any other ID. Registration, fuel and impending per-mile taxes fund transportation infrastructure. Auto loans account for nearly $1.5 Trillion debt every year. Traffic enforcement and patrol accounts for the majority of police work by far. Responding to violent crime is typically around 1%, but patrolling roads and streets accounts for nearly all police interaction with the public, citations, revenue generation, and arrests.
The left could have adopted a position advocating for mass transit to realize sound environmental and sociological goals, but its adoption would have threatened the expansion of the state's power. Public transit might seem to expand state power at first glance, until all the factors surrounding individual motor vehicle transit are fully considered. Anything that diminishes that without completely eliminating it, reduces the impetus for state control.
Instead, the left is betting on a state enforced transition to a disruptive technology that won't solve any problems but that will maintain everything I've mentioned. The state built the current transportation infrastructure with leftist support, and rather than conceding its flaws, the left is hoping "technology" will fix the problems. Compared to advocating for mass transit, it's a winning position because even their opponents on the right have been conditioned to believe that being dependent on a personal motor vehicle is "freedom." Even when they're driving trucks made in China, fueled with Arab oil, and controlled by Apple, being tracked by GPS transponders, paying a per-mile tax, interest on the bank loan they financed the purchase with, while also paying for licensing, registration, and submitting to arrest and search of their property on-demand without so much as probable cause (never mind a warrant, the standard is "reasonable suspicion"), they will think it's "freedom" to commute back and forth just to earn enough to pay for "more lanes" in vain hope they'll spend less of their time in traffic "in the future."
The reason America has given up on mass transit or public transit for the time being, is because America is in the middle of a culture war. One side coerced the other into advocacy for petrol-fueled, privately-owned and personally-financed motor vehicles. This enabled driver licensing, vehicle registration taxes, collection of interest on bank and credit union financing, and empowered the overwhelming majority of the police state. It was just bad for the environment because of particulate and carbon emissions, and bad for society because it drove suburbanization, urban sprawl, increased congestion, traffic, and ever growing highways. Mass transit was always an alternative to those things, but its widespread adoption would upend or disrupt long-standing traditions that underpin so many mandates. Your driver's license is your fundamental ID in US society, and it's questionable whether the government has the authority to mandate any other ID. Registration, fuel and impending per-mile taxes fund transportation infrastructure. Auto loans account for nearly $1.5 Trillion debt every year. Traffic enforcement and patrol accounts for the majority of police work by far. Responding to violent crime is typically around 1%, but patrolling roads and streets accounts for nearly all police interaction with the public, citations, revenue generation, and arrests.
The left could have adopted a position advocating for mass transit to realize sound environmental and sociological goals, but its adoption would have threatened the expansion of the state's power. Public transit might seem to expand state power at first glance, until all the factors surrounding individual motor vehicle transit are fully considered. Anything that diminishes that without completely eliminating it, reduces the impetus for state control.
Instead, the left is betting on a state enforced transition to a disruptive technology that won't solve any problems but that will maintain everything I've mentioned. The state built the current transportation infrastructure with leftist support, and rather than conceding its flaws, the left is hoping "technology" will fix the problems. Compared to advocating for mass transit, it's a winning position because even their opponents on the right have been conditioned to believe that being dependent on a personal motor vehicle is "freedom." Even when they're driving trucks made in China, fueled with Arab oil, and controlled by Apple, being tracked by GPS transponders, paying a per-mile tax, interest on the bank loan they financed the purchase with, while also paying for licensing, registration, and submitting to arrest and search of their property on-demand without so much as probable cause (never mind a warrant, the standard is "reasonable suspicion"), they will think it's "freedom" to commute back and forth just to earn enough to pay for "more lanes" in vain hope they'll spend less of their time in traffic "in the future."
How much stolen through Civil Asset Forfeiture traffic stops?
Concern with both mass transit and increasing centralization/sophistication in auto software is this..,
Person X sees through the MSM lies, therefore Person X has his subway pass revoked or his car shut off on the side of the road.
06-16-22, 11:11 AM
#183
Full Member
Agree with much stated.
How much stolen through Civil Asset Forfeiture traffic stops?
Concern with both mass transit and increasing centralization/sophistication in auto software is this..,
Person X sees through the MSM lies, therefore Person X has his subway pass revoked or his car shut off on the side of the road.
How much stolen through Civil Asset Forfeiture traffic stops?
Concern with both mass transit and increasing centralization/sophistication in auto software is this..,
Person X sees through the MSM lies, therefore Person X has his subway pass revoked or his car shut off on the side of the road.
More likely the car won't take him anywhere but the re-education center. Freedom requires an anonymous means of transportation. I know total anonymity is impossible in an age of facial recognition software, and even with a mask, there are other technologies that would trace a person if they weren't volunteering to carry a GPS tracking device with camera and microphone, but that's not the anonymity I'm talking about. Triple-A is "authentication, authorization, and accounting." With an automobile driver's license and registration or subway pass, a person must authenticate to go anywhere. A bicycle or a subway token or cash payment for bus fare grants authorization without authentication. Mass surveillance means that pretty much every movement is tracked (accounting), though at present this produces tons of data that isn't necessarily simple to sort through. It means we don't have total anonymity, but for the most part the data is presently used in aggregate to report megatrends, and it can be scrutinized in costly investigations of individual movements when deemed necessary. So the bottom line is that transit without authentication is worth preserving. A person should be authorized to go places without first identifying/authenticating themselves. Mass transit and bicycles allow for that. They don't have to allow for it. They could prohibit it. Our society could require authentication to ride the bus and big ID number plates or transponders on bicycles, but thankfully we don't have that.
06-16-22, 03:12 PM
#184
Live not by lies.
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 1,306
Bikes: BigBox bikes.
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 860 Post(s)
Liked 784 Times
in
582 Posts
More likely the car won't take him anywhere but the re-education center. Freedom requires an anonymous means of transportation. I know total anonymity is impossible in an age of facial recognition software, and even with a mask, there are other technologies that would trace a person if they weren't volunteering to carry a GPS tracking device with camera and microphone, but that's not the anonymity I'm talking about. Triple-A is "authentication, authorization, and accounting." With an automobile driver's license and registration or subway pass, a person must authenticate to go anywhere. A bicycle or a subway token or cash payment for bus fare grants authorization without authentication. Mass surveillance means that pretty much every movement is tracked (accounting), though at present this produces tons of data that isn't necessarily simple to sort through. It means we don't have total anonymity, but for the most part the data is presently used in aggregate to report megatrends, and it can be scrutinized in costly investigations of individual movements when deemed necessary. So the bottom line is that transit without authentication is worth preserving. A person should be authorized to go places without first identifying/authenticating themselves. Mass transit and bicycles allow for that. They don't have to allow for it. They could prohibit it. Our society could require authentication to ride the bus and big ID number plates or transponders on bicycles, but thankfully we don't have that.
A positive aspect of public transit that hadn’t previously crossed my mind.
I used the bus to go with my firstborn to a museum once. We didn’t get mugged, but other than that not at all a good experience, not convenient, not timely, etc.
The bus in LA is worlds apart from the subway in Frankfurt or Paris.
06-24-22, 10:30 PM
#185
Junior Member
With labor shortage and mechanical issues, buses are occasionally cancelled throughout the day. To get somewhere on time, one must plan to leave extra early. Probably something cyclists do anyway in case of flat or fix needed on the road.
10-15-22, 04:15 PM
#187
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,921
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1815 Post(s)
Liked 1,693 Times
in
974 Posts
Mass transit is great but it is only great if the users make the best choices. When my family was very young we chose to live in an area of Montreal well served by public transit. I could walk a city block to a bus that would take me to a Metro station that would take me to a station inside the building where I worked. 20-30 minutes door to door. My children got older. We needed a larger home. Sadly, we had missed a downward blip in the Montreal home market that would have allowed us to buy a home in the area where we had been living. So, we had to look to a suburban area. I don't think that most people look at anything other than driving distance. What I looked at was mass transit options, ability to use my bicycle as an option, and finally using our car as a final choice. So, we chose a suburb that had commuter train service, express bus service, close enough for bike commuting to be an option, and, as a last choice, driving my car to work. So, over 25 years of living there, I rode my bike to work most of the Montreal spring/summer/falls. and used public transit during our winters. The point I want to make is that if people make smart choices about where they live public transit can be great. If they make choices based on limited transit options we have a problem
10-15-22, 08:45 PM
#188
Senior Member
Any fee greater than is requiered to pay the functionary bringing the document and the cost of materials is a tax. In some places registration fees are reasonable but in some, particularly in a certain state that costs of it's low tax burden, the same registration cost many hundred of dollars. Due on your birthday, to add insult to injury.
__________________
1980ish Raleigh Marathon (Vintage Steel)
2006 Trek 820 (Captain Amazing)
2010 Specialized Tricross (Back in Black)
2008 Specialized Roubaix
"I'm built like a marine mammal. I love the cold! "-Cosmoline
"MTBing is cheap compared to any motorsport I've done. It's very expensive compared to jogging."-ColinL
Rides:1980ish Raleigh Marathon (Vintage Steel)
2006 Trek 820 (Captain Amazing)
2010 Specialized Tricross (Back in Black)
2008 Specialized Roubaix
10-18-22, 12:21 PM
#189
Full Member
Hint: registration fees do not pay for roads. They pay for the DMV. It's a tax for government spending.
Gas tax pays for roads. Does that make it a gas fee rather than a tax?
