Tubeless Problems
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- How do I think sealant would get into the valve (an gum it up) ? Sorry to burst your bubble, It happens. Sometimes to the point it becomes a real PITA to inflate the tyre.
- Never mind? Sure! :-) You get to have your cake and eat it too, haha!.. Or, explain how/why liquid sealant that is promised to plug holes up to 1/4", quickly, cant plug a small leak that is likely less than 0.1 mm.
Im sorry dude. It just doesn't work and the endless workarounds (you "just" have to get a different sealant, "just" get different tyres, "just" get special plugs to when the sealant fails, "just" get the "right" valves, "just re-tape the rim, "just" get the right gadget to mount the tyres, "just" do this that and the other to seat the tyre on the rim, "just" get a special pump to inflate, You must inflate you tyre at 6 o or 12 o clock or 3 o clock, blah, blah, blah!) is just further proof its a half baked cake.
- Never mind? Sure! :-) You get to have your cake and eat it too, haha!.. Or, explain how/why liquid sealant that is promised to plug holes up to 1/4", quickly, cant plug a small leak that is likely less than 0.1 mm.
Im sorry dude. It just doesn't work and the endless workarounds (you "just" have to get a different sealant, "just" get different tyres, "just" get special plugs to when the sealant fails, "just" get the "right" valves, "just re-tape the rim, "just" get the right gadget to mount the tyres, "just" do this that and the other to seat the tyre on the rim, "just" get a special pump to inflate, You must inflate you tyre at 6 o or 12 o clock or 3 o clock, blah, blah, blah!) is just further proof its a half baked cake.
Try harder.
#27
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Sure, what ever. You are the one trying to make it an argument about where the hole is. It makes no difference to question and inherent claim posted in #10 - The sealant doesn't work as advertised and claimed on the forums, if it cant even plug tiny little leaks, no matter if its at the base of the valve. And that is the reason all sorts of workarounds come into play.
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- How do I think sealant would get into the valve (an gum it up) ? Sorry to burst your bubble, It happens. Sometimes to the point it becomes a real PITA to inflate the tyre.
- Never mind? Sure! :-) You get to have your cake and eat it too, haha!.. Or, explain how/why liquid sealant that is promised to plug holes up to 1/4", quickly, cant plug a small leak that is likely less than 0.1 mm.
Im sorry dude. It just doesn't work and the endless workarounds (you "just" have to get a different sealant, "just" get different tyres, "just" get special plugs to when the sealant fails, "just" get the "right" valves, "just re-tape the rim, "just" get the right gadget to mount the tyres, "just" do this that and the other to seat the tyre on the rim, "just" get a special pump to inflate, You must inflate you tyre at 6 o or 12 o clock or 3 o clock, blah, blah, blah!) is just further proof its a half baked cake.
- Never mind? Sure! :-) You get to have your cake and eat it too, haha!.. Or, explain how/why liquid sealant that is promised to plug holes up to 1/4", quickly, cant plug a small leak that is likely less than 0.1 mm.
Im sorry dude. It just doesn't work and the endless workarounds (you "just" have to get a different sealant, "just" get different tyres, "just" get special plugs to when the sealant fails, "just" get the "right" valves, "just re-tape the rim, "just" get the right gadget to mount the tyres, "just" do this that and the other to seat the tyre on the rim, "just" get a special pump to inflate, You must inflate you tyre at 6 o or 12 o clock or 3 o clock, blah, blah, blah!) is just further proof its a half baked cake.
The problem is it needs a soft pliable structure that is thick enough to adhere to to resist the pressure. That rules out problematic or previously tubed paper thin skin walls & rigid rim gaps at the rim seam & valves as being sealable areas,
Huge deal, I know. A smear of Shoo-Goo on a problem area of a skin wall fixes one issue & attention to detail fixes the other.
Tubeless seals when the soft pliable rubber is stretched by the outward flow of air, the hole gets filled by the sealant, the flow is then reduced, & the stretched rubber then contracts around the newly formed latex plug. It's not rocket science & it works.
Every system has it's limitations, even tubes.
The workaround for tubes? Tubeless.
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base2 Thank you for the explanation. I too have often wondered why sealing around rigid surfaces like rim edge or valve hole is so iffy.
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The round tubeless rubber piece works for my wheel where as the rectangular style such as Enve did not work. Might swap out.
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I find the last part of your post amazing. I've had the reverse experience. When I store my bike with the stem in the 6 o'clock position, both the front and rear wheels empty by morning-- totally empty. when I leave the bike stored with the stems at 12 o'clock, they hold the pressure the best.
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OMG, this valve stuff is getting out of hand.
The valve should be airtight on its own, regardless of sealant and regardless of position.
Valve position when airing up should be irrelevant, except, perhaps, in the case of inflating with a CO2 cartridge, because some sealants respond badly to being blasted with cold gas.
The valve should be airtight on its own, regardless of sealant and regardless of position.
Valve position when airing up should be irrelevant, except, perhaps, in the case of inflating with a CO2 cartridge, because some sealants respond badly to being blasted with cold gas.
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OMG, this valve stuff is getting out of hand.
The valve should be airtight on its own, regardless of sealant and regardless of position.
Valve position when airing up should be irrelevant, except, perhaps, in the case of inflating with a CO2 cartridge, because some sealants respond badly to being blasted with cold gas.
The valve should be airtight on its own, regardless of sealant and regardless of position.
Valve position when airing up should be irrelevant, except, perhaps, in the case of inflating with a CO2 cartridge, because some sealants respond badly to being blasted with cold gas.
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proper valve position depends on your location relative to the equator
thought this was fairly obvious
thought this was fairly obvious
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I find the last part of your post amazing. I've had the reverse experience. When I store my bike with the stem in the 6 o'clock position, both the front and rear wheels empty by morning-- totally empty. when I leave the bike stored with the stems at 12 o'clock, they hold the pressure the best.
Something must be wrong with your setup. Perhaps a bad valve core? When's the last time you performed maintenance (new valve core, sealant replacement, cleaning the inside of the rims, etc.) on your TL setup?
Storing them at 12 o'clock may mean that some sealant is left near the rubber seal of your valve core, avoiding your air from leaking. My theory is bit of a stretch, I know
Last edited by eduskator; 08-16-22 at 05:34 AM.
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Bassmanbob - I have read through this thread and I am curious about your mystery leaking. I looked up the Enve wheels you are using to understand their specifications a bit more. It appears that the Vittoria 30mm tubeless tires you are using are “approved” by Enve to work with their hookless rims so that is not likely your problem. But really I was reading up on them to see if they mentioned much about how they are taped from the factory (or if they are like Fulcrum and Mavic UST with un-drilled rim interior). They made no mention of the tape, 🤔….
When there is all this discussion of air leaking from the valve I remember other tubeless troubleshooting threads I have read where folks mention that air loss from the valve stem can be from anywhere in the rim! This is because the top of the valve stem is not meant to be airtight and any air that leaks into the rim extrusion interior will escape where it needs to. So I would ask if you could talk about your rim tape configuration for these wheels. It may be just like my tubeless aluminum road wheels (DT Swiss R460) where you may not get an airtight seal the first go around. If you visually inspect your tape you may see actual tracts of sealant where it is migrating under unsealed sections of the tape, attempting but not fully succeeding at creating an air tight seal. Or, you might not see these tracts until you peel back the tape altogether and at this point your are committing to fully re-tape the rim. But if when you remove all of the tape you see sealant residue around any of your spoke holes, this is the source of your leak, and your tubeless valve may have been perfectly sealed all along.
Hope this moves the conversation forward…
When there is all this discussion of air leaking from the valve I remember other tubeless troubleshooting threads I have read where folks mention that air loss from the valve stem can be from anywhere in the rim! This is because the top of the valve stem is not meant to be airtight and any air that leaks into the rim extrusion interior will escape where it needs to. So I would ask if you could talk about your rim tape configuration for these wheels. It may be just like my tubeless aluminum road wheels (DT Swiss R460) where you may not get an airtight seal the first go around. If you visually inspect your tape you may see actual tracts of sealant where it is migrating under unsealed sections of the tape, attempting but not fully succeeding at creating an air tight seal. Or, you might not see these tracts until you peel back the tape altogether and at this point your are committing to fully re-tape the rim. But if when you remove all of the tape you see sealant residue around any of your spoke holes, this is the source of your leak, and your tubeless valve may have been perfectly sealed all along.
Hope this moves the conversation forward…
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OP: Did you bring the bike back to the LBS that sold it to you? What did the mechanic say? IMO, they should deal with the hassle and fix your issue.
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I have a mystery leak in one of my wheels at the moment but I’m sure that I’ll fix it. The the tire on a couple 2-3 hour rides and the tire holds up fine but is out of air in the morning. A brief check of the tread this morning located two spots where a stone is embedded. I also checked my logs and I found that I hadn’t checked the sealant this summer or about 2600 miles and 3 months.
I’m fairly certain that the tire is acting like a regular clincher with a small leak and there isn’t enough sealant to plug it. I’ll know when I get around to looking at it but I’m betting that I’ve already figured it out.
I’m fairly certain that the tire is acting like a regular clincher with a small leak and there isn’t enough sealant to plug it. I’ll know when I get around to looking at it but I’m betting that I’ve already figured it out.
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I have a mystery leak in one of my wheels at the moment but I’m sure that I’ll fix it. The the tire on a couple 2-3 hour rides and the tire holds up fine but is out of air in the morning. A brief check of the tread this morning located two spots where a stone is embedded. I also checked my logs and I found that I hadn’t checked the sealant this summer or about 2600 miles and 3 months.
I’m fairly certain that the tire is acting like a regular clincher with a small leak and there isn’t enough sealant to plug it. I’ll know when I get around to looking at it but I’m betting that I’ve already figured it out.
I’m fairly certain that the tire is acting like a regular clincher with a small leak and there isn’t enough sealant to plug it. I’ll know when I get around to looking at it but I’m betting that I’ve already figured it out.
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I have a mystery leak in one of my wheels at the moment but I’m sure that I’ll fix it. The the tire on a couple 2-3 hour rides and the tire holds up fine but is out of air in the morning. A brief check of the tread this morning located two spots where a stone is embedded. I also checked my logs and I found that I hadn’t checked the sealant this summer or about 2600 miles and 3 months.
I’m fairly certain that the tire is acting like a regular clincher with a small leak and there isn’t enough sealant to plug it. I’ll know when I get around to looking at it but I’m betting that I’ve already figured it out.
I’m fairly certain that the tire is acting like a regular clincher with a small leak and there isn’t enough sealant to plug it. I’ll know when I get around to looking at it but I’m betting that I’ve already figured it out.
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I just moved from a more moderate climate to...Hell. Well, it's hot as hell around here, anyway. And dry. I used to check my sealant level each month, and only had to add sealant every couple months. Now I often add sealant every 2-3 weeks. If I don't, the tires go dry and punctures don't seal.
...and the sealant was still fine.
....though, in fairness, the wheels didn't do much between Dec and Mar, other than get sloshed around a bit each day, when getting the bike on/off the trainer.
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Bassmanbob , as I have mentioned, have you determined where is the leak coming from? If it's leaking from the inside of the pressure relief valve stem nut, then it's probably the rim tape, especially if it held for a week. It's likely the tubeless install damaged the rim tape. So change that first. And really, if it's a new bike, this should be done by the seller, and you shouldn't be trying to figure this out in the forum. The answer is either the valve or the rim tape, don't overthink it. I have Enve 4.5 ARs and I fill at all angles where it lies. Haven't had the valve clog from SealSmart in 4 years.
Are your wheels Enve? I'd be wary to say Enve doesn't know which shape rubber bases are optimal for their design and rim tape install? I've only had the one problem on my 4.5 and it was the rim tape when I accidentally damaged it changing tires. The Enve valves are developed to prevent the sidewalls of the rim from overfill when the rim tape is compromised, which could cause the sidewall to collapse.
Are your wheels Enve? I'd be wary to say Enve doesn't know which shape rubber bases are optimal for their design and rim tape install? I've only had the one problem on my 4.5 and it was the rim tape when I accidentally damaged it changing tires. The Enve valves are developed to prevent the sidewalls of the rim from overfill when the rim tape is compromised, which could cause the sidewall to collapse.
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As expected, both tires were dry as a bone inside but are now topped off.
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Ouch. I had been using regular Orange Seal, but recently moved to the Endurance blend. When I checked my sealant levels before a road trip in July (on which I'd be bringing the bike), I realized that it was the first time that I'd checked since I'd installed the new tires in late October
...and the sealant was still fine.
....though, in fairness, the wheels didn't do much between Dec and Mar, other than get sloshed around a bit each day, when getting the bike on/off the trainer.
...and the sealant was still fine.
....though, in fairness, the wheels didn't do much between Dec and Mar, other than get sloshed around a bit each day, when getting the bike on/off the trainer.
4 months into the season this year & 3500kms (2100ish miles) and my Muc-Off sealant is still good.
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OMG, this valve stuff is getting out of hand.
The valve should be airtight on its own, regardless of sealant and regardless of position.
Valve position when airing up should be irrelevant, except, perhaps, in the case of inflating with a CO2 cartridge, because some sealants respond badly to being blasted with cold gas.
The valve should be airtight on its own, regardless of sealant and regardless of position.
Valve position when airing up should be irrelevant, except, perhaps, in the case of inflating with a CO2 cartridge, because some sealants respond badly to being blasted with cold gas.
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Really? I never had an air leak ''issue''. My tires do deflate but it's only after a few weeks (which is irrelevant because I ride a few times a week and pump them often).
Something must be wrong with your setup. Perhaps a bad valve core? When's the last time you performed maintenance (new valve core, sealant replacement, cleaning the inside of the rims, etc.) on your TL setup?
Storing them at 12 o'clock may mean that some sealant is left near the rubber seal of your valve core, avoiding your air from leaking. My theory is bit of a stretch, I know
Something must be wrong with your setup. Perhaps a bad valve core? When's the last time you performed maintenance (new valve core, sealant replacement, cleaning the inside of the rims, etc.) on your TL setup?
Storing them at 12 o'clock may mean that some sealant is left near the rubber seal of your valve core, avoiding your air from leaking. My theory is bit of a stretch, I know
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Bassmanbob - I have read through this thread and I am curious about your mystery leaking. I looked up the Enve wheels you are using to understand their specifications a bit more. It appears that the Vittoria 30mm tubeless tires you are using are “approved” by Enve to work with their hookless rims so that is not likely your problem. But really I was reading up on them to see if they mentioned much about how they are taped from the factory (or if they are like Fulcrum and Mavic UST with un-drilled rim interior). They made no mention of the tape, 🤔….
When there is all this discussion of air leaking from the valve I remember other tubeless troubleshooting threads I have read where folks mention that air loss from the valve stem can be from anywhere in the rim! This is because the top of the valve stem is not meant to be airtight and any air that leaks into the rim extrusion interior will escape where it needs to. So I would ask if you could talk about your rim tape configuration for these wheels. It may be just like my tubeless aluminum road wheels (DT Swiss R460) where you may not get an airtight seal the first go around. If you visually inspect your tape you may see actual tracts of sealant where it is migrating under unsealed sections of the tape, attempting but not fully succeeding at creating an air tight seal. Or, you might not see these tracts until you peel back the tape altogether and at this point your are committing to fully re-tape the rim. But if when you remove all of the tape you see sealant residue around any of your spoke holes, this is the source of your leak, and your tubeless valve may have been perfectly sealed all along.
Hope this moves the conversation forward…
When there is all this discussion of air leaking from the valve I remember other tubeless troubleshooting threads I have read where folks mention that air loss from the valve stem can be from anywhere in the rim! This is because the top of the valve stem is not meant to be airtight and any air that leaks into the rim extrusion interior will escape where it needs to. So I would ask if you could talk about your rim tape configuration for these wheels. It may be just like my tubeless aluminum road wheels (DT Swiss R460) where you may not get an airtight seal the first go around. If you visually inspect your tape you may see actual tracts of sealant where it is migrating under unsealed sections of the tape, attempting but not fully succeeding at creating an air tight seal. Or, you might not see these tracts until you peel back the tape altogether and at this point your are committing to fully re-tape the rim. But if when you remove all of the tape you see sealant residue around any of your spoke holes, this is the source of your leak, and your tubeless valve may have been perfectly sealed all along.
Hope this moves the conversation forward…
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