cyclezen

So who has a WHOOP Membership?
Why did you get it?
How has it been for you?
What Important Info is it giving you?
What Important Info isn't available from it?
Is it beneficial overall for your needs?
Anything else you might comment about WHOOP?
I know this might be more focused for the Training forum, but it seems WHOOP can be used for other things, like recovery from illness, rebuilding after a long hiatus from activity, etc.
I'm not interesting in 'Training' anymore for racing. I am hoping to get as far into a recovery from a serious health issue which will be a consideration for the rest of my life, so an overall comprehensive measurement of body resilience would be a good for body awareness.
I am going through heir materials as much as available; but comments from real world users would surely give strong info on effectiveness and validity.
Thanks to anyone who might have info to give.
Ride On
Yuri

yaw

If you are interested in recovery, read up on heart rate variability (HRV) and you can use free apps like Elite HRV to take morning or spot readings using devices like the Polar H10 heart rate strap, which is otherwise also great for cycling. Monitoring changes in your own HRV vs your baseline is really all you need to know about recovery and readiness beyond how you feel.

Whoop bases the recovery score on HRV, however, there are reported inaccuracies in its readings (of activities in general, beyond naturally being less accurate than a chest strap given how it is worn, which skews data and recommendations) and the 24/7 wearable and subscription model are a bit drastic for something one can track more accurately in 1-2 minutes per day, or whenever one wants to check vs an established baseline.

MoAlpha

Yeah, wearable HRV has not been perfected and Whoop may the worst of the bunch. Oura is supposedly better, if you don’t mind the aesthetically questionable and potentially dangerous ring. I have a Garmin watch and it agrees in a qualitative way with HRV4T, but doesn’t give you actual numbers, which is annoying. For spot rMSSD, and other basic measures, phone camera measurement and some optical gizmos, e.g., the Scosche Rhythm24 (which I also use), are adequate. For fancier parameters like DFA alpha1, a good chest strap is required. I have a Polar 7.

I’d play around with HRV4T or EliteHRV and see if it does anything for you before going the Whoop route.

sfrider 

I had one for 6-8 months, or so.

It capped my HR at 180 and never reported anything beyond this; my max is 197 and LT according to Garmin was at the time around 185. It couldn't even get up to threshold!
It estimates training stress from HR, which is abysmally poor to begin with. HR reflects O2 deficit more than actual work done. This in turn suggest someone in poor condition does more work than someone well-trained; the reality is the opposite.
Given it estimated work from HR it came up with utterly ludicrous numbers (see my sig below for an example).
It was buggy AF. It seemed to upload data in time blocks, and sometimes blocks were swapped around so it looked like you took a long break in the middle of a 2-3 hour ride.
It couldn't reliably detect start and end of sleep.
The HR graphs never matched a 'real' HRM; I compared it both to the Wahoo Fit optical I usually wear and a Polar H10 I use for interval training.
I don't think their HRV is worth more than its HR data in general, which is pretty poor (although maybe on par with other optical wrist sensors).

Because I didn't trust them to have collected accurate data to begin with I found their reports more of a curious novelty than anything I'd trust for anything. For all I care they might have just made it all up.

If I were you I'd put the money towards a power meter and use good old Garmin Connect... (Or any of the many excellent for-pay services.) While HR is useful for many things, a PM is the essential training instrument, and what you get from the HRM only supplements baseline power data. At least Garmin is grounded in useful (power) data.

WhyFi

I looked in to Whoop briefly and saw the poor reports on accuracy - that was about as far as I've gotten. Also, I friggin' hate subscriptions. Like, really. Just let me buy a product and be done with it, please.

I don't know if DCR has touched on it yet, but fitbit very recently rolled out new functionality/reports, including HRV. I've only peeked at one of my reports for a few seconds, and haven't seen any third party analysis, but this is going to start with devices in the $150 neighborhood and the basics, at least, don't require a subscription service. I would expect the capability of the hardware to be on par with whatever Whoop has, but it might not be as... polished in presentation. As in, with Whoop, seems to be very glanceable prescriptive - "you're good to go" or "you look like **** - you need more sleep," in not so many words. I don't know if fitbit does that, will do that, or if they'll leave it to individuals to interpret their own numbers.

Regardless, if you're looking for a 24/7 monitoring and you're okay with it not being as accurate as a good chest strap, it's another option, and a less expensive one (over time) at that.

bampilot06

My fitbit updated recently and it now shows me HRV data. I’ll have to find out when it is taking the measurement but I think it’s when I am sleeping. I also wear my apple watch that also takes one, but I don’t like the way apple health works.

cyclezen

Thanks everyone! some really great comments, and other options - will look further into other options, HRV4T and anything else.
I'm really looking for something which might show accurate numbers HR and HRV over a whole period, including SPO2... Needs to be all self-contained with the use of local reporting, recording device - cell ph.
I already have tried the Wahoo Kickr to see how accurate it is, but lacks SPO2 - although SPO2 is not 'required' - I have a separate SPO2 meter which is hospital accurate.
I have a FitBit, which is totally inaccurate - it never goes over 120-125 even though I often spend long periods
But combining it all is sortta the idea. I'm into mountaineering (cycling still being #1), and much of it is at high altitude, very high altitude. A climb/expedition in 2017, I believe, contributed and precipitated my recent health issue. These are multiweek expeditions, not always having access to daily med monitoring services.
I think I still might have 3 or 4 possible years of participation, now that COVID has retracted a bit and is again allowing travel. I'm okay with being in a 'support' role, but want to still be there. Even base camp work is very stressful.
I think some good overall monitoring system would be a big aid in assessing capabilities, on mountain.
I haven't found anything which has been noted in mountaineering circles, other than separate devices which can't give some overall assessment - it's still up to us to mull over; and often the 'thinking' is driven by objectives, rather than caution...
So thanks, and please keep the thoughts and comments coming... They're very helpful.
Ride On
Yuri
Wahoo Kickr seems accurate enough for cycling, and simple evaluation... Not sure if it'll serve for climbing...

Seattle Forrest

Garmin's Fenix watches do SPO2 for mountaineering purposes. You'll find a lot of debate about how well they do it. (When I've spot checked mine at the doctor it's been within 1%, this is while they're testing so it's the same protocol, vs randomly.) They're very expensive.

waters60

What is your current health issue? I would consult your doctor but assume you already have. It might be asking for trouble if you go back to an altitude you believe contributed to your current issue. Closely monitoring your vitals can be helpful to let you know when to turn around but if you have heart issues the outcome can be life threatening in areas with limited medical facilities. Altitude related edemas, treated with rapid descent, are less dangerous and more reversible. Heart issues not so much. It sounds like you are trying to hedge your bets but that could be dangerous if you have been warned about the perils of returning to altitude.

cyclezen

Not heart, Big C... and stg 3 when detected... apparently been in my system for some time... Oncologist thinks the system stress of the long period last adventure just brought it to the fore.
I prolly had ignored some of the early symptoms and attributed them to some temporary condition or aging ...
Luckily almost 4 yrs of chemo has been reducing it incredibly, and we're at the point of taking a longterm hiatus and evaluating every 4 mos. I consider myself blessed by these successes.
So, discussion is for 2023 season (Apr-May) and only base camp equipment and logistics role. So I'll need to get some evaluation time this fall, here in the Sierras, Cascades and maybe Rockies.
So recording 24 hr data is going to be important.
Don;t want to say 'no' until the possible shows it's might not be possible...
riding is now a strong part of the focus. I won;t 'rationalize', and won;t put others at risk. Maybe that 'time' to step back is now... maybe not yet...
Ride On
Yuri

MoAlpha

FWIW, Otto Warburg, who won the Nobel prize for discovering a critical chunk of the biochemical pathway for aerobic respiration, also showed that tumor cells rely primarily on glycolysis and tend to grow faster in a low oxygen environment. That said, epidemiology suggests a lower cancer rate (except for skin) in populations residing at altitude.

cyclezen

Thanks ! Had a similar conversation with MD, during the first few weeks of diagnosis. We'll have to revisit that at our next meeting.
I'll try to find any references for Warburg's research on this. Anything on this.
Between constant low O2 Blood levels (High 70's low 80's), constant level of 'dehydration' (really hard to stay well hydrated at altitude), and constant overall system stress, the arrived at supposition is that the period at high altitude was not casual, but precipitated the explosive tumor growth.
...wasn't planning to go this far into this part of conversation, but I appreciate all the info. Will help to keep me 'real' on what might be possible... We'll see this summer.
Anyway, it would be a great thing to have metrics which can benchmark systemic conditions, for cycling.
Ride on
Yuri

MoAlpha

The cancer thing is known as the “Warburg Hypothesis” and it’s been part of the canon for close to 100 years. It’s a fascinating read at a minimum. Good luck and enjoy whatever you decide to do.

Seattle Forrest

​​​​​​I took delivery of a new Garmin watch today. It does spot checks including RMSSD. Does a lot of other cool stuff too and I'm delighted so far.

cyclezen

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
Yeah, wearable HRV has not been perfected and Whoop may the worst of the bunch. Oura is supposedly better, if you don’t mind the aesthetically questionable and potentially dangerous ring. I have a Garmin watch and it agrees in a qualitative way with HRV4T, but doesn’t give you actual numbers, which is annoying. For spot rMSSD, and other basic measures, phone camera measurement and some optical gizmos, e.g., the Scosche Rhythm24 (which I also use), are adequate. For fancier parameters like DFA alpha1, a good chest strap is required. I have a Polar 7.
I’d play around with HRV4T or EliteHRV and see if it does anything for you before going the Whoop route.
so, I have been checking for info and actual user comments on many of the devices, especially the latest smart watches... Fenix, ScanWatch, Fitbit ... (all except apple, not interested in apple...)
HRV4T and RMSSD are nice, but first the basics need to be accurate.
I found a guy who put a lot of devices thru well thought-out testing - The Quantified Scientist. He did a bunch of watches, and the good ones (recent and expensive) seem to give accurate results, as long as you're not really 'moving', active, and not steady fashion. Once really 'active', the monitoring accuracy really fall off the cliff. He uses a Polar H10 chest strap as the 'base' comparison unit. The comparisons show not some close variance, but actual dropouts of where HR measure 'sinks' just as the HR is really spiking...
so if the monitoring of basic HR isn;t even close, all the other info is useless.
I was hoping to get away from a chest strap, but that doesn;t seem possible - the optic devices all just can't hold up to serious use, unless you're not 'active'...
So I guess I'm going to have to find a monitoring app which gives good metrics from the Wahoo Kickr and if that can;t be found then a Polar H10.
But finding that the H10 may only read SPO2 down to 70 - reality is that altitude and stress can take the SPO2 down into the 60s (as monitored on multiple climbers and samples). That's when one really needs the numbers.... which means still have a separate unit....
Good thing about chest straps is no worries about battery life, just gotta deal with deciding on the cell ph used...
anyway, check out The Quantified Scientist - good info.
Ride On
Yuri

Seattle Forrest

I'm not interested in watching some random guy speculate about being a tech hipster. 🙂

MoAlpha

Yeah, nothing optical gives accurate HRV data while moving yet. For anyone who can tolerate a chest strap, Marco Altini's companion app for HRV4T, HRV Logger, can do some interesting stuff, including reading DFA alpha 1 online at 2 min intervals. There is also a big boy/girl HRV app called KUBIOS or something, which is aimed at a professional market and I think the analysis part requires a computer.

cyclezen

Hope you didn;t take my post as knocking your choice.
I was just continuing the thread on. The tests,done by Quantified Scientist, emphasized for me, that 24/7 use of optic devices wouldn;t work for me, in the mountain environment.
Pretty much what I found from having 2 smart watches, this past winter in the Sierras - but both were Fitbits - so I chalked up to brand issues.
Part of the issue is 'circulation'. In a cold environment, circulation in the extremities can become more 'irregular', certainly true for me...
Also noticed on bike rides when temps were in the low 50's or lower, when arms were somewhat chilled (even with arm warmers...).
So as much as I don;t like the idea of constant wearing of a chest strap - I think that's the only workable option, for me.
I need the info, just as conditions get difficult and circulation becomes challenged, is when I need fulltime monitoring and reporting.
Ride On
Yuri