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Are Japanese bikes junk? Or, how I learned to stop worrying and love all bikes

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Are Japanese bikes junk? Or, how I learned to stop worrying and love all bikes

Old 12-13-21, 08:41 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by shoota
Cooler headbadge, AND cooler name.
I Agree on the name, way cooler, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on the head badge, Kabuki cooler. Shogun head badge looks like the oriental dress of a short fat guy.
Gorgeous looking Shogun frame though, can you post a pic of the whole thing, Thanks!
Tim
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Old 12-13-21, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
hmmm my first 10 speed was an Azuki.... probably a contract built bike, Paid $160 for it in 1971 (sugar beet hoeing money) it was a good bike for what it was. typical build for the time... suntour deraillers and shifters, dia compe center pull with suicide levers, alloy stem, handle bars, and seat post, quick release wheels with alloy rims.(Sunshine IIRC not sure if 4130 or chrome moly

This was not junk by any means, and compared to todays entry level (big box store) bikes a ton better in functionality and reliability. and had a cool head badge, and nice candy apple blue paint.

this bike got be through highs school and the coast guard....it got to get ridden in Connecticut, NYC, Virginia, florida, Newfoundland, Nova scotia, Bahamas and Bermuda

In high school and college I had what I think may have been an Azuki or a relative. Ever hear of a Premium? I put a Crane derailleur and big freewheel on it and rode the snot out of it. Despite its weight, I thought it was a great climber - many trips up Lookout Mountain and Clear Creek Canyon out of Golden CO.

added: Far from a top tier bike but nice enough for someone to steal.

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Old 12-13-21, 08:57 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by droppedandlost
Any chance you could post a pic of the whole frame, the small part depicted looks awesome!
Thanks, Tim
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Old 12-13-21, 09:37 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by tkamd73
Any chance you could post a pic of the whole frame, the small part depicted looks awesome!
Thanks, Tim
1985 Shogun 800 in the process of a repaint. Stupid cold weather....
It's made with Tange2 tubing and I would rank it a close second to my SLX Tommasini.
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Old 12-13-21, 11:03 PM
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Thanks, awesome frame, wow, amazed how good it looks stripped, ever consider just clear coating as is? Anyway, please post pics when the project is finished.
Thanks again, Tim
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Old 12-14-21, 03:52 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Andy_K
I can only speak from my own experience, but I'll take a stab at Austrian bikes.

High end: Austro-Daimler Ultima
Double-butted Reynold 531 tubing
Forged Campagnolo dropouts
Reasonable (neutral) geometry
I bought it with a mish-mash of parts and replaced those with a different mish-mash
This was a very smooth bike

Um yeah, Austro-Daimler/Puch... They put out some very fine bikes for sure. Puch, more correctly Steyr-Daimler-Puch was one of the largest Austrian companies and suffered a lot from industrial disputes and strikes at times. Some hardcore Puch collector told the story that at some points, the workers would actively sabotage production. Only bikes coming from the racing teams small shop can be relied on being top grade.
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Old 12-14-21, 04:57 AM
  #32  
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Kabuki:

Originally Posted by tkamd73
Made by Bridgestone, and not all were junk or low end, plus coolest head badge ever. On the high end, the OP kind of blew off Fuji and Panasonic, makers of some of the best from Japan
Try the Kalavinka head badge:



(Photo nicked from some website, and cropped.)

(I have a soft spot for the Ravanello daikon head badge too.)
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Old 12-14-21, 07:31 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by thook
Not only that, but the poor quality parts the manufacturers spec'd them with. I've had and have some Schwinns, Dawes, Peugeot, Raleigh, and others that weren't primo as a frameset, but not junk, either. Taking off the junk parts...Simplex, Huret, Shimano, Sunrace, and bottom of the barrel Suntour ...and replacing them with the good stuff makes a world of difference.
Boom era, low end derailleurs were not junk. Manufacturers rarely spec'd the bottom of the line model. For instance, you rarely saw a SunTour Skitter, Instead, you typically got a SunTour Honor. While it was heavy, it did shift well. Owners couldn't tell the difference in shifting between it and the top of the line SunTour VGT. The same goes for the other other manufacturers. They all had their negative aspects but lower end derailleurs like the Huret Allvit, Simplex Prestige and Shimano Sky Lark were respectable performers for their era. When you compare them to the lauded, high end competition, such as the Campagnolo Nuovo Record rear mechanism, they were on par and arguably better, in terms of shifting performance.

I don't know what derailleurs you are replacing these units with but I suspect they are more modern units, in which case it really isn't a fair comparison. There are a lot benefits to newer technology and the trickle down effect that comes with it. There was a huge jump in shifting technology in 1985, when Shimano introduced SIS. It wasn't the indexing itself, as much as it was the incorporation of constant, short chain gap geometry, which provided early, crisp shifting, aided by the expiration of SunTour's slant parallelogram patent. There was another quantum leap in shifting performance with the 1989 introduction of Hyperglide's ramped and profiled cogs. And let's not forget the part of the more flexible, bushless chain, introduced by Sedis in 1981. None of these were avaialble in the early 1970s.

So, if you're substituting index era derailleurs, Hyperglide compatible freewheels and bushless chains, there is going to be a world of difference. However, it's due to the march of technolgy, not the level of the derailleur itself. Even the high end derailleurs of the earlier era shifted poorly in comparison.

As for the other components of the era being junk, a lot of it had to do with supply and demand. The bicycle boom escalated so quickly that manufacturers could not fill the need. New workers with little or no experience in the industry were hired. The LBS were screaming for product and under such pressure, things were being rushed out the door. Understandably, quality suffered in these situations. You saw things like poor finish, missing parts, incorrect assembly, insufficient lubrication and incorrect bearing pre-load. And there were lots of part substitutions, usually lower grade.

The LBS had the ability to rectify many of these situations and the more conscentious shops did effect the necessary corrections, when possible. However, there were a lot of greedy shop owners who were more interested in maximizing their profits and instructed their mechanics only to assemble the bicycles, adjust the derailleurs and brakes, and fix any glaring problems that even an uneducated consumer would notice. After, decades of use, abuse and subsequent neglect, a lot of these bicycle can look not much better than something that came out of a chain store.

Usually, these issues were not as evident on the higher grade bicycles. The manufacturers had a reputation to uphold and placed their experienced workforce on these models. The new workers were assigned to building the lower end bicycles and componets, where it was hoped that the the less knowledgeable consumer would not notice the difference.

In additon to being more frequent and noticeable on the low end models, the quality lapses were also more evident on the European manufactured brands. Too their credit, the Japanese faired much better in this aspect. In the aftermath of World War II. America had a distaste for Japanese product, which was routinely referred to as "Jap crap". However, unlike their American counterparts, post war Japanese manufacturers took to heart the quality philosophy of men like Demming and Juran, ingraining it into their manufacturing culture.

It took the shortages of the bicycle boom to open America's eyes to the fact that the Japanese could build a quality bicycle. Their early boom efforts tended to be on the conservative side, to ensure reliabilty. Consequently, characteristics like a resilent ride and weight tended tended to suffer in comparison to the Europeans. However, there was no denying their ability to produce consiststent, good workmanship. Shipments of European bicycles would be all over the workmanship map. Consumers would inspect a lineup of Peugeot UO8 or Raleigh Grand Prix to ensure that they got the best one. This wasn't necessary with something like a Sekine SHC. Consumers didn''t necessarily know what it was about the Sekine, but they knew it looked better and they all looked the same.

The legacy of the Japanese bicycle industry coming out of the early 1970s bicycle boom was that they educated of the American and Europeans on the importance of quality. The market success of the Japanese bicycle in the entry level market forced the rest of the world to raise their bar on workmanship.
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Old 12-14-21, 09:20 AM
  #34  
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The title of this subject thread strikes me as odd. It would be like asking on a watch forum if all Swiss watches are junk. The firm answer is no, they are not! I have the perspective of being a builder/painter that started in the mid 70's. Before powder coating, I would get in a lot of frames for a respray (and possible adding and/or removing of braze-ons). I would always check to see how aligned they were on my cast iron alignment table. The British and French frames were most often out (although some were not). Later Italian frames would be pretty accurate after companies started using Marchetti or Bike Machinery frame building equipment. Almost every Japanese frame was aligned correctly. I very seldom had to do any correction.

Contributing to the quality of Japanese frames were companies like Nikko that made bulge formed lugs and BB shells. Trek used these lugs in the 1st frames they made in the 70's. This was a superior method (in my opinion) than European made lugs that were made by welding a seam to make the socket (that later had to be filed smooth). Top end frames later used investment cast lugs.

I was talking to one of my Japanese friends yesterday that grew up in the Midwest. Years ago he would get unwanted attitude about Japanese made products that resulted as an aftereffect from WWII when manufacturing had to start over again. He often heard that the Japanese were copiers and their stuff was poor quality. Eventually Japanese products were known for their quality. But the attitudes remained long after the quality had greatly improved.
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Old 12-14-21, 10:56 AM
  #35  
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I love my two 70s era Japanese bikes:


Fuji Finest

Sekine SHS 271
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Old 12-14-21, 11:15 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by droppedandlost
1985 Shogun 800 in the process of a repaint. Stupid cold weather....
It's made with Tange2 tubing and I would rank it a close second to my SLX Tommasini.
That headbadge is really sweet. Your frame looks like a non-Hellenic stay version of what mine, an 86 1000 (also Tange 2 and painted headbadge). What color are you thinking of?

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Old 12-14-21, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by tkamd73
Thanks, awesome frame, wow, amazed how good it looks stripped, ever consider just clear coating as is? Anyway, please post pics when the project is finished.
Thanks again, Tim
I would love to clear it as is, but every thread here says not to do it.
The fork is actually in the garage with some different clears on it for testing.
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Old 12-14-21, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DorkDisk
That headbadge is really sweet. Your frame looks like a non-Hellenic stay version of what mine, an 86 1000 (also Tange 2 and painted headbadge). What color are you thinking of?
I really didn't care for the decal head badge on this frame so I pulled one from an 81 1000. The head badge is the inspiration for colors. Probably red frame, gold lug lining, black infill on stay caps, black components, and I want to clear the fork blades with a red crown. Kind of like a hilt and sword blade. Might look cheesy but I can always paint the fork.
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Old 12-14-21, 02:29 PM
  #39  
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Does a Univega count? Competizione with a mix of high end SR/Shimano brake and chainset parts, and Superbe Pro derailleurs.

Whoever set this up put a mix of sprung Diacompe AGC levers and Shimano 105 SLR calipers on it and it works really well despite the brand mixing.
​​​


For my money Japan invented the quality midrange bike.
​​​​​

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Old 12-14-21, 03:49 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Chuck M
There is a lot of talk of what is junk lately. But I suppose Japanese bikes are an easy target to pick on as they were a big part of the 70s and 80s bike booms. But a good many of them were pretty solidly built in my opinion. Suzue hubs, Arraya rims, Sugino cranks, Suntour drivetrains and Dia-Compe brakes hold up well. I'm one of many who owe my love of cycling to the bike boom and Japanese hi-tensile. Were it not for the dependable bikes that came from the bike boom at an affordable price I would not have known anything other than department store chain offerings.
Agreed! The title was a bit of satire on the previous junk threads.
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Old 12-14-21, 04:19 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by clubman
I feel like I'm on a dystopian Bradbury carousel where the beautiful horses have been replaced with BSOs and the music is Tom Waits 'Bone Machine' playing backwards. And I just keep getting older.

Gonna be a long winter.
time for a trip, Pictou maybe

feel ya
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Old 12-14-21, 04:28 PM
  #42  
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Japanese bikes were the best of the best. Their cheap bikes were the best cheap bikes, and their high-end bikes, although lacking cachet, were made as well as (or better than) the best Euro or American bikes, and usually for a lot less money when new.

Compare a mid-range Fuji or Miyata to a Raleigh or Peugeot or Cinelli from the same era and you'd see there was nothing that the Japanese bike was lacking, and the construction generally looked cleaner and more modern than the Euro bikes in most instances.
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Old 12-14-21, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
time for a trip, Pictou maybe

feel ya
Hey I'll ride to Pictou if you want to meet me there.

I'll bet they shut the borders though. You'll have to fight your way through. Not worth it in the winter, save your energy until fair weather comes around.
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Old 12-14-21, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman
Hey I'll ride to Pictou if you want to meet me there.

I'll bet they shut the borders though. You'll have to fight your way through. Not worth it in the winter, save your energy until fair weather comes around.
when I retire.that could be a fun ride.... last time I was there I was a 19 year old US Coastguardsman. my boat (with the Azuki in the hold) was diverted to act as US representatives to the Pictou Lobster Festival. Great time, did the harbor swim (first in salt water), ate lots of lobster, met a lass
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Old 12-14-21, 05:09 PM
  #45  
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I can’t believe there hasn’t been any love for Takara so far in this thread. @Andy_K, you need to represent!

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Old 12-14-21, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
I can’t believe there hasn’t been any love for Takara so far in this thread. @Andy_K, you need to represent!

Is Takara accounted as a Japanese brand, or should there be a separate category for American bike brands built in Japan/Taiwan and using a Japanese-sounding name to appear to be a Japanese brand?

Either way, in terms of fashion, Takara Steve is clearly best (followed by Young Spock), while Papa Takara could use some help.

My personal bike experience in the Japanese-American-Japanese-ish category is:

Not-really high end but functionally solid: 1976 Takara Model 8



Low end but still tolerable after complete component replacement: 1973 Nishiki Olympic


And in the Japanese-built but unapologetically American branded category, I have:

High end: 1982 Specialized Sequoia


Very high-end: 1983 3Rensho-built Specialized Allez


Not really low-end but not high-end either: 1986 Centurion LeMans RS


I've also got a Schwinn Voyageur and a Performance Superbe that fit this very common category.

And in the Japanese-built, French branded category

Entry-level, but surprisingly pleasant to ride: 1977 Gitane Gypsy Sport


Someone else will have to provide a Bianchi for the Japanese-built, Italian branded category.
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Old 12-14-21, 05:58 PM
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Ok, are we moving to "Are Belgian bikes junk, or quality?"

I definitely do not feel myself able to determine what was the "free spirit" or "IcantremembertheKmartbrandbike" of other countries. I am guessing all countries mentioned (maybe not Switzerland) would have had their dime store bike brand, that I will never have heard of.

I'll be there are even eastern bloc brands that were plumbing pipe gladiators!
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Old 12-14-21, 06:07 PM
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Kmart/Woolco/Zellers (Canada) had Vagabonds iirc. Pure crap made in a ditch behind the rendering plant.

It's possible this is an original factory setup.


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Old 12-14-21, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman
Kmart/Woolco/Zellers (Canada) had Vagabonds iirc. Pure crap made in a ditch behind the rendering plant.

It's possible this is an original factory setup.


That's not the one I remember...and it wasn't All Pro either, which is the other one I just found online. Oh well, it wasn't good whatever it was.
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Old 12-14-21, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner
I can’t believe there hasn’t been any love for Takara so far in this thread.
I have my favorite Takara, a 1980 Grand Touring on the stand right now giving it a much needed overhaul otherwise I would have posted it last night. But what the heck, here it is. I bought it back in February and didn't have time to tear it down. Once in a while I would decide to take it out for a spin through the neighborhood and those spins wound up being 25 to 30 mile rides. I eventually put some new Pasela skin-walls on because I knew I couldn't keep the rides near the house. I think I can do as many miles a day on this as I can my 2018 Trek Domane. A couple of weeks ago I tore it down to the bones and re-greased everything, replaced the cables, installed Dia Compe cable clamps on the top tube and I got some Cat-Eye spoke reflectors for it.

I need to wrap the bars and put the chain and pedals back on but this is a pretty solid bike IMHO.

From a ride this summer near sunset.
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