Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Training & Nutrition
Reload this Page >

Squats for Cycling

Notices
Training & Nutrition Learn how to develop a training schedule that's good for you. What should you eat and drink on your ride? Learn everything you need to know about training and nutrition here.

Squats for Cycling

Old 07-20-16, 08:11 PM
  #1  
CanadianBiker32
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
CanadianBiker32's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,006

Bikes: Maxim, Rocky Mountain, Argon 18, Cervelo S2 Team

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Squats for Cycling

Would doing Squats for cycling have any benefits?
Anyone out there do squats?
and leg weights? presses?
if so how often a week would you do that? thanks
CanadianBiker32 is offline  
Old 07-20-16, 08:31 PM
  #2  
jsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 606

Bikes: Trek Madone, Blue Triad SL, Dixie Flyer BTB

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I lift weights twice/week during the off-season, once/week during the race season, except for the week before 'A' races when I'll usually skip the weights as part of my taper. I do complex barbell lifts like squats, overhead press, deadlifts, rows/chins, etc.

I think it helps on the bike. Not so much at threshold and higher intensities, where it's more about how much oxygen your cardiovascular system can deliver to the muscles. But at sub-threshold intensities some studies have shown that the additional strength gained from weight lifting makes your legs more fatigue-resistant. Basically my "all day pace" is at a higher power output than it would be if I wasn't lifting.

There are other benefits off the bike, especially as you get older. Losing bone density and muscle mass are common as people age, and strength training can prevent that. Cycling is not a load-bearing activity so it doesn't do any good for bone density and joint health.
jsk is offline  
Old 07-20-16, 08:34 PM
  #3  
chinarider
Dan J
 
chinarider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Iron Mountain, MI
Posts: 1,244

Bikes: 1974 Stella 10 speed, 2006 Trek Pilot 1.2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I think squats have benefit, but in the off season. I'd concentrate on riding, including intervals, tempo rides, hill workouts,etc. Trying to mix squats in with this will detract from cycling specific training.
chinarider is offline  
Old 07-20-16, 09:05 PM
  #4  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,501

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3873 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times in 1,369 Posts
I work my legs twice a week in the off season, once a week during the season. Studies have shown that once a week at lowered reps (2 sets of ~5, to failure) retains muscle cross section area at little cost in training load. Works for me.

During the season, I do half squats, down to a 90° knee angle or a bit lower. That's inside the range of motion on the bike and allows the use of heavier weights with a lesser risk of injury. I also do single leg presses, same range of motion, standing one-legged calf raises to full range of motion, and bent leg lifts on the Roman Chair bringing knees higher than hands. Single leg presses are particularly interesting because one can vary the load on the quads vs. hams and glutes by changing one's foot position on the board. Good for correcting weaknesses.

In the off season I add knee extensions from 150°-180° only and sometimes straight-legged deadlifts.

For me, weights increases the time I can spend overgeared on very steep hills and possibly the power I can put down there. There is no appropriate gear for spinning up 18% grades, at least for us mortals. As noted above, anytime one can spin, one gets no extra power by lifting weights, however I also believe it increases time to exhaustion at lower effort levels.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 07-25-16, 05:49 AM
  #5  
inspclouseau
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 2 Posts
I do squats with varying regularity.

I usually take 2 workouts from the core advantage book, and when I get to the squats workout I change it up and do 5 push-up sets of about 7 push-ups. After each set I do a set of 15 squats for 4 sets.

This has really helped me stay loose and avoid back pain.

I wish I did these twice a week, but I get lazy and sometimes miss a week. When I do I feel my body starting to tighten up and back pain return.

I off set the push-ups at the end of the workout with a couple of sets of curls and 2 sets of 5 pullups. Without off setting the push-ups I find I run into a lot of upper back issues.
inspclouseau is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 07:25 PM
  #6  
CrankyNeck
Senior Member
 
CrankyNeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Panama, close to Pedro Miguel Locks.
Posts: 150

Bikes: Trek 2300

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Squats really aren't good for your knees. The wall sit quad exercise is much safer and very effective.
CrankyNeck is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 07:33 PM
  #7  
sprince
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by CrankyNeck
Squats really aren't good for your knees.
Old wives tail. Truth is that half squats are bad for your knees. It is 90 degrees that produces the highest loads on the knees, then add changing directions at that angle and you have doubled or tripled the load. That angle is a dead spot during cycling so it's not an issue, and also why half squats are nothing like cycling.
sprince is offline  
Old 07-26-16, 09:48 PM
  #8  
jsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 606

Bikes: Trek Madone, Blue Triad SL, Dixie Flyer BTB

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by CrankyNeck
Squats really aren't good for your knees. The wall sit quad exercise is much safer and very effective.
Nonsense. The only risk squats pose to your knees is if you do them wrong (letting knees collapse in at the bottom as you start to go back up, which is often a result of loading too much wait on the bar and not squatting to full depth). Learning to properly squat to full depth made a huge improvement in my formerly creaky knees (as well as hip mobility).
jsk is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 06:32 AM
  #9  
OBoile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times in 204 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
I work my legs twice a week in the off season, once a week during the season. Studies have shown that once a week at lowered reps (2 sets of ~5, to failure) retains muscle cross section area at little cost in training load. Works for me.

During the season, I do half squats, down to a 90° knee angle or a bit lower. That's inside the range of motion on the bike and allows the use of heavier weights with a lesser risk of injury. I also do single leg presses, same range of motion, standing one-legged calf raises to full range of motion, and bent leg lifts on the Roman Chair bringing knees higher than hands. Single leg presses are particularly interesting because one can vary the load on the quads vs. hams and glutes by changing one's foot position on the board. Good for correcting weaknesses.

In the off season I add knee extensions from 150°-180° only and sometimes straight-legged deadlifts.

For me, weights increases the time I can spend overgeared on very steep hills and possibly the power I can put down there. There is no appropriate gear for spinning up 18% grades, at least for us mortals. As noted above, anytime one can spin, one gets no extra power by lifting weights, however I also believe it increases time to exhaustion at lower effort levels.
This is not correct. Using a full range of motion is every bit as safe (and probably safer) as long as one's form is correct.
OBoile is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 08:55 AM
  #10  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,501

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3873 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times in 1,369 Posts
Originally Posted by OBoile
This is not correct. Using a full range of motion is every bit as safe (and probably safer) as long as one's form is correct.
There is a range of opinions on this issue. I think this article presents a good overview of the issues: https://www.lookgreatnaked.com/articl...e_exercise.pdf

However that may be, at 71 I am by far the oldest person squatting heavy at my gym and the only person squatting heavy who does not wrap their knees. I had a meniscus snip about 10 years ago. I got injured doing fast straight legged deadlifts. Doctor who scoped me said my knee cartilage was perfect.

I've been following a program used by European elites. The cyclists and Nordic skiers being studied used half squats, probably because of the specificity issue mentioned in the above link.

Squat however you want. My squat regimen has definitely improved my strength endurance.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 08:57 AM
  #11  
OldTryGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: SW Fl.
Posts: 5,604

Bikes: Day6 Semi Recumbent "FIREBALL", 1981 Custom Touring Paramount, 1983 Road Paramount, 2013 Giant Propel Advanced SL3, 2018 Specialized Red Roubaix Expert mech., 2002 Magna 7sp hybrid, 1976 Bassett Racing 45sp Cruiser

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1063 Post(s)
Liked 771 Times in 499 Posts
True or false???? What All Squatters Knee'd To Know!

Can you experts advise me**********
OldTryGuy is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 08:59 AM
  #12  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,501

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3873 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times in 1,369 Posts
Originally Posted by sprince
Old wives tail. Truth is that half squats are bad for your knees. It is 90 degrees that produces the highest loads on the knees, then add changing directions at that angle and you have doubled or tripled the load. That angle is a dead spot during cycling so it's not an issue, and also why half squats are nothing like cycling.
Only a dead spot if you don't pedal circles. I push hard at the top. Hard to do really steep stuff seated unless one pedals circles.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 09:16 AM
  #13  
baobao
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
So what is your squat regimen/half squat?
baobao is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 09:29 AM
  #14  
deapee
Ride On!
 
deapee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 971

Bikes: Allez DSW SL Sprint | Fuji Cross

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by jsk
Nonsense.
It's not nonsense. Adding load to your knees (not a muscle, cannot adapt and grow stronger) is NOT good for them. He didn't say it's definitely bad for them, just that it's not good for them.
deapee is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 09:41 AM
  #15  
jsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Houston
Posts: 606

Bikes: Trek Madone, Blue Triad SL, Dixie Flyer BTB

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 160 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by deapee
It's not nonsense. Adding load to your knees (not a muscle, cannot adapt and grow stronger) is NOT good for them. He didn't say it's definitely bad for them, just that it's not good for them.
And I'm saying that squatting to full depth doesn't increase the load on your knee joint, it increases the eccentric load on your hamstrings and glutes. Also strengthening the muscles around a joint is good for the joint. Barbell squats have absolutely been good for my knees.

IMHO squats carry more injury risk for the back than the knees, which is why it's important to use strict form and use a weight that doesn't cause your form to break down.

Last edited by jsk; 07-27-16 at 09:44 AM.
jsk is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 09:50 AM
  #16  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,501

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3873 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times in 1,369 Posts
Originally Posted by deapee
It's not nonsense. Adding load to your knees (not a muscle, cannot adapt and grow stronger) is NOT good for them. He didn't say it's definitely bad for them, just that it's not good for them.
Tendons, tendon sheaths, and attachment points all adapt. Conditioning is not only about muscles. Thus most weights programs include a starting period where one lifts relatively light and higher reps. Then gradually, reps are reduced and weight increased. This allows time for the relatively long adaptation period required by connective tissue. Muscle adapts much more quickly.

Historically on this forum, several have found that the solution to their tendinitis/tendinosis was simply working up to lifting heavy at low reps. Works for me too.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 10:04 AM
  #17  
CrankyNeck
Senior Member
 
CrankyNeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Panama, close to Pedro Miguel Locks.
Posts: 150

Bikes: Trek 2300

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Just think about this. Squats don't do ANYTHING beneficial for the menisci. Yes, toned leg muscles will help keep the knee functioning properly and help avoid injuries to your menisci. But as I said, the squats themselves aren't doing anything beneficial for them specifically. What they do is add the unnecessary risk of injury, especially if squatting technique is bad. But even with proper form, people have torn their meniscus while squatting. Given that there are other safer, just as effective exercises, my old wife asks me why I would risk doing them? No good answer, so I don't do them and use the wall sit quad exercise instead. The knee is a joint, and like any other type of joint, human or mechanical, it will wear with time and stress. Why help it along.
CrankyNeck is offline  
Likes For CrankyNeck:
Old 07-27-16, 10:11 AM
  #18  
deapee
Ride On!
 
deapee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 971

Bikes: Allez DSW SL Sprint | Fuji Cross

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by jsk
And I'm saying that squatting to full depth doesn't increase the load on your knee joint, it increases the eccentric load on your hamstrings and glutes. Also strengthening the muscles around a joint is good for the joint. Barbell squats have absolutely been good for my knees.

IMHO squats carry more injury risk for the back than the knees, which is why it's important to use strict form and use a weight that doesn't cause your form to break down.
I fully understand what you're saying -- the correction was when you called his statement "nonsense" when he said that squatting doesn't help the knees...because it just flat out doesn't help the knees. Whether it's harmful or not, I would never attempt to discuss with someone over the internet.
deapee is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 12:43 PM
  #19  
OBoile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times in 204 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
There is a range of opinions on this issue. I think this article presents a good overview of the issues: https://www.lookgreatnaked.com/articl...e_exercise.pdf

However that may be, at 71 I am by far the oldest person squatting heavy at my gym and the only person squatting heavy who does not wrap their knees. I had a meniscus snip about 10 years ago. I got injured doing fast straight legged deadlifts. Doctor who scoped me said my knee cartilage was perfect.

I've been following a program used by European elites. The cyclists and Nordic skiers being studied used half squats, probably because of the specificity issue mentioned in the above link.

Squat however you want. My squat regimen has definitely improved my strength endurance.
I've yet to hear a single reputable expert say that doing half squats is safer than a using a full range of motion.

They can be a good idea for sport specific training, but they aren't safer.

I squat "heavy" with my personal best being 402 lbs. I don't wrap my knees either.
OBoile is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 12:54 PM
  #20  
OBoile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times in 204 Posts
Originally Posted by OldTryGuy
True or false???? What All Squatters Knee'd To Know!

Can you experts advise me**********
Some of the stuff said in that article is true. Some is BS. In particular the parts about your knees going past your toes and the stuff about knee wraps. 99% of the time, wearing knee wraps is done because it lets you lift more weight, not because it's safer (it generally isn't IMO).

But, more importantly: this forum is a terrible place to get advice on how to lift weights. This is a question you should ask in a forum dedicated to lifting weights, or perhaps at a ****** like this: https://www.******.com/r/powerlifting/

I say this as someone who competes at powerlifting, was an assistant coach on an IPF world championship team (my wife was on the team) and has received instruction from former world champion lifters. The advice you'll get here on lifting is as bad as the "cardio" advice you'll get at places like bodybuilding.com (and some of it is truly terrible, you should check it out for a laugh sometime). On this very thread, there is deapee and CrankyNeck who are clearly out of their depth.

Last edited by OBoile; 07-27-16 at 01:16 PM.
OBoile is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 12:58 PM
  #21  
OBoile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times in 204 Posts
Originally Posted by deapee
It's not nonsense. Adding load to your knees (not a muscle, cannot adapt and grow stronger) is NOT good for them. He didn't say it's definitely bad for them, just that it's not good for them.
Uh, other tissues also adopt to stress. There's a reason why TdF riders don't have massive amounts of tendinitis after a couple of stages like a novice cyclist would have.

Last edited by OBoile; 07-27-16 at 01:38 PM.
OBoile is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 01:13 PM
  #22  
OBoile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,794
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times in 204 Posts
Originally Posted by jsk
And I'm saying that squatting to full depth doesn't increase the load on your knee joint, it increases the eccentric load on your hamstrings and glutes. Also strengthening the muscles around a joint is good for the joint. Barbell squats have absolutely been good for my knees.

IMHO squats carry more injury risk for the back than the knees, which is why it's important to use strict form and use a weight that doesn't cause your form to break down.
Definitely true. I've seen several people hurt their back while squatting (I've done this myself, albeit a very minor injury). I can't recall ever seeing someone hurt their knees from squats. I'm sure it happens, but it isn't as common as many people seem to think.
OBoile is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 03:31 PM
  #23  
wolfchild
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721

Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes

Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times in 1,286 Posts
I bought myself some squat stands about 2 month ago and started doing squatting. I do front squats full ROM ass to the ground using an Olympic style grip and also do back squats full ROM and also do wide grip deadlifts ( AKA snatch grip deadlifts ). I don't do them to improve my cycling but to build and maintain an overall strength. I feel a lot more comfortable squatting beyond parallel then half-way.
wolfchild is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 03:32 PM
  #24  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,645 Times in 6,054 Posts
I was going to say no, because over the course of a ride (not just a sprint) it's your aerobic capacity and not leg strength that limits your speed on a bike. But it looks like pretty much everyone disagrees with me, and at least some of you have expressed good reasons for doing so.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 07-27-16, 03:40 PM
  #25  
FXjohn
Senior Member
 
FXjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 12,969
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2985 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I was going to say no, because over the course of a ride (not just a sprint) it's your aerobic capacity and not leg strength that limits your speed on a bike. But it looks like pretty much everyone disagrees with me, and at least some of you have expressed good reasons for doing so.
seattle forrust, squatting helps you climb while standing and pedal in taller gears. not everyone is spinning like a hamster.
__________________
Comedian Bill Hicks once said, "Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy a jet ski, and you never see an unhappy person riding a jet ski."
FXjohn is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.