OutSpokyn1

Trying to decide on a bike purchase for Transamerica and I have an opportunity to purchase a used Co-Motion Pangea in my size. If buying new, I have pretty much decided on the Disc Trucker, but then this bike became available for a price close to (but a little more than) the new Surly.

Is this a no-brainer, since the Co-Motion is a superior frame and bike which new goes for $4-5K?

Only drawback is that it has v-brakes vs. disc.

I need to decide this weekend?, so looking for feedback from experienced touring folks (as I have none).

Tandem Tom

It comes done to fit. Have you ridden both bikes? I know about Co-Motion quality as we have one of there tandems. But our touring bikes are LHT's with V brakes. I built them up,I work PT @ a LBS, and decided not to go with discs.

elcruxio

This has many issues I'm going to address.

Firstly: Brakes.
For me discs are a necessity and I'll never again buy a bike with rim brakes. There's just no plus side to rim brakes, none, especially in touring. Feel is worse, compatability is worse, power is worse in both modulation and control (Vees are powerful but grabby on off, cantis are weak and spongy)
You have a better choice of levers in discs because you can always use a disc caliper no matter which lever you choose. You just choose either a MTB or Road caliper.
With rim brakes you can swap to some extent but if you want Vee's you're stuck with Vee drop levers (which suck, so bad...). If you want a better fitting road lever of brifters you're stuck with cantis which are whole different level of personal agony. Travel agents are not worth it especially in a touring bike where you'd want simplicity and durability instead of gimmicks.
And tire swaps and using different wheelsets etc etc is much easier with discs.

But enough about that.

Then there's the supposed superiority of the CoMotion frame. This really boils down mostly to whether the skill of the person wielding the welding torch gives some quantifiable advantage to the frame. CoMotions are made in the US, Surly's are made in Taiwan in a factory which makes most of the steel frames sold by major manufacturers. I'd wager that CoMotion welders are not more skilled than their taiwanese counterparts. their methods can be more advanced, but that really only counts in terms of frame finishing (such as reaming and chasing etc, which you really don't need to do yourself with a surly frame)
CoMotion uses Reynolds 725 which is heat treated 4130 Chromoly and thus marginally stronger in the middle of the frame tubes (since welding strips the heat treat at the tube ends) as in Surly frames which use untreated 4130. Thus Comotion frames can be made slightly lighter as the middle buttings can be made thinner.

But the big part of CoMotion price comes from the possibility of getting a custom geometry. I've understood that their frames of the same model are the same price no matter whether you get a custom geo or not. So CoMotion socializes the needs and higher cost of producing a custom frames to people who don't need a custom geo. As much as I love the idea of custom geometry (as I think I need one for my next bike) I find this method of working slightly questionable.

Anyways I'm in the understanding that CoMotions are only slightly superior to surly frames and that's only because of the use of a better steel grade (heat treat)

I say, take the Surly. you'll thank yourself with the discs when you realize that the levers you chose suck and you'd rather sport brifters or a Sram S500 brake levers.
And the surly likely has more in its frame than you'll ever need and more. I've done 50mph descents with mine, climbed the alps, it's been banged to the moon and back and not a single scratch even showing metal yet. Man I love my LHT. Sad that I only have the front as disc and the rear is a rim brake. I now need to get Avid shorty ultimate in the rear so I can use a better more ergonomic brake lever.

bradtx

OutSpokyn1, If the Pangea comes with racks and other accessories, value increases. I wouldn't consider any particular braking system a deal breaker. I would also pay attention to the Pangea's wheel set, which maybe superior to the DT's OEM spec.

Brad

BobG

There is only one westbound descent on the entire TransAm that heats up brakes. That's the twisting 4 mile drop from the Blue Ridge Parkway to the town of Vesuvius VA. Most folks just stop a couple of times on the way down to let them cool. In MT there is a dirt road alternate, Gibbon's Pass, that requires continual braking westbound. Most riders stick to the paved route over Chief Joseph Pass. That said, my cantis worked fine on Gibbon's. I find cross top levers to be a big help for continual dirt road braking from drop bars, more of an asset than brake design.

For most of the TransAm the brakes are just along for the ride. Any style works fine. They are just used for occasional slowing down on the curves.

Timequake

Surly and Co-Motion (and a dozen other companies) make quality steel frames with quality components. There really isn't much difference at all between the quality of a steel Surly frame and a steel Co-Motion frame. And for that matter, a steel 90's Stumpjumper frame. They're all just steel bikes. Don't waste your money on brand name and hype.

kingston 

I'd get the co-motion for the bling factor and resale value.

MixedRider

Have you ridden both? Are you familiar with maintaining/fixing you own bike?


If you are not savvy with the wrench, I would get the DT from a shop. They will make sure when you get it there will be no immediate issues and will fit somewhat properly. If you get the Co-motion and are not comfortable tweaking stuff, you then have the added cost of bringing it somewhere to have gen maintenance.

alan s 

Couple things to consider. The used bike will probably hold its value better than the new one if you are planning on selling later. You may need to replace lots of stuff if the used bike has worn out parts. I'd need a lot more information about the condition of the CoMotion than you are providing to make any assessment.

OutSpokyn1

Funny thing is I want the new Disc Trucker, even though I keep hearing how great the Co-Motion is. The used bike is in good shape from the pictures I've seen, has some paint scratches and chips. I am going to see it and test ride it next week.

It is set up pretty nice:
Wheelset: Shimano XT hubs on Sun Ryhno Lite rims
Skewers: Shimano XT
Tires: New WTB Slickasaurus 26x1.1 road tires (bike will accept really wide tires if you want, even up to MTB tires)
Brakes: Avid SD-7 V-brakes
Brake levers: Cane Creek for drop bars
Rear derailleur: Shimano XTR M971, long cage
Front derailleur: Shimano XT M761
Shifters: Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end, 9-speed, indexed w/friction override
Cassette: Shimano XT M770 11-34 9-speed
Chain: SRAM, 9-speed (recent, maybe 100 miles on it)
Crankset: Race Face Deus, 24/34/46 rings, 170mm arms
Headset: Chris King 1-1/8", black threadless

No racks included, priced at $1800, new SDT is about $1300

kingston 

That's a pretty bomber rig. No-brainer if everything's in good shape IMO.

fietsbob

Co Motion Is made in Eugene Oregon USA and you as a New Buyer can ask to have special features added
in its building up from its tubes and frame parts .
[OP is shopping for a Used one, that's different. of course]

Surly Uses the Taiwan Contract manufacturer MaxWay Ltd, and so all you can do is pick a size .
color is a change annually, but the whole batch order will be the same.
they come across the sea in a container , on a ship, with a thousand other containers stacked in them.


FWIW I like the German Magura HS33 hydraulic rim brakes that I have mounted on Cantilever/V brake posts.

I use trekking Bars rather than drop bars so R'off grip shifter on the bars too.




./.

Dream Cyclery

Pangea is the one to get, but I wouldn't spend that much on a Canti bike. Maybe your local frame builder can add disc tabs for the bike? Just a thought

kingston 

I have disk brakes on my touring bike, and I don't like them. Perhaps it's just my mechanical skills, but I can't get them to stop squeaking.

fietsbob

As I have been known to say 'Do They Stop the Bike'?

Disc Brake Pads is another Kook Stop Product you should try..

IDK what your initial Bedding in rides were like... a couple dozen slow smooth stops ?

skin oil on the disc?



./.

mstateglfr 

I never tire of your determination to describe how many bikes are made and come to the US. The completely useless to the discussion details like "with a thousand other containers stacked in them" are always a treat.

OutSpokyn1

This is a custom bike made for the original owner (measurements indicate it's not the dimensions listed on the Co-Motion website for this frame size, so therefore was a custom build). I have had a Co-Motion dealer compare my measurements to this bike and it seems like a decent fit, but he did say not to pay the asking price, so after I test ride it I'll see what if I want it and what to offer.
Thanks everyone for the great comments!

MassiveD

The idea that a Surly Frame and a commotion frame are similar in quality is ridiculous. I had a Maxway touring frame that you couldn't ride hands free. The tubing could be anything within the 10 buck price point. Commo is well known for an extremely high level of execution. The custom part or fit is obviously not a big positive factor here, neither is the sizing range of Surly. Apparently the Pangean is more a Great Divide than a trans-am frame. So future uses might be a factor.

Which is better for you is the main issue. Fit is the key, so you want to verify that the Commo frame geometry and tubing is standard (or rider is similar to you), not something weird; if weird that you are also in that groove; and that you have the right frame size nailed. Myself, I think with no boutique parts and second hand it needs to be near perfect low miles or cheaper.

LHTs are OK low end frames with amazing marketing, so I don't blame you for feeling the pull, but any frame builder in the US can do a better job, LHTs are only special in the marketing.

Discs don't really make sense on a road touring bike, some people prefer them as a mater of taste, there is a whole long parallel thread on brakes.

MassiveD

OH, CK headset!

BigAura

+1 condition, condition, condition.

If a worn-out drivetrain, bottom-bracket, or wheelset fails mid-trip, that beautifully built Co-Motion frame isn't gonna look so nice.

PERSONALLY: If it passed my inspection I'd do the Co-Motion.

bwgride

I'm with elcruxio on this one. There are more benefits to disc brakes than just stopping power. I would not buy another frame without disc brake. With disc, it is easier to remove wheels - no fiddling with brake cables before removing or installing wheels. Disc brake cables don't interfere with any attachments to fork crown or seat stay brake bridge like some rim brakes. No need to deflate or inflate tires to remove or install past brake pads if tires are very wide.

In addition, the parts on the Pangea, while nice, are not so superior to standard parts on the LHT that make it a must buy. It comes with a Chris King headset. That's bling for some, but I've never had an inexpensive headset fail, and it is rare that others experience headset failure with less expensive headsets.

Also, for me, the LHT fork with upper bolts on the fork crown is great. That's not a common feature on forks but something I use and find helpful.

If you like the Pangea get it, but don't buy it for the prestige that others hold for it.

kingston 

@bwgride is right. That Pangea is functionally equivalent to an LHT in the same way that a honda minivan is functionally equivalent to a range rover. So are you a new minivan or a used range rover kind of guy? Both can be good, but they're not the same thing.

OutSpokyn1

I am considering this bike because of it's reputation as a top-of-the-line touring bike. I am only considering it because (A) It is used and the price is in line with what I can afford and (B) Because it appears to be a good fit.

I am new to touring so although I have read, I am not instinctively aware of what the better components are, especially wheel sets. I am also not great at determining relative wear and tear other than whats obvious, but will ride it for fit and to listen to how it operates and look it over carefully. My problem is not knowing what is a good price for this bike used, as there are not many available for sale.

kingston 

Can you bring someone along with you who knows something about bikes to take a look at the Pangea? If not you should probably just get the new one.

steve-in-kville 

That's one of the wisest things I've read on the interwebz for a while. That applies to more than bikes (and minivans!).