Naidu

I plan to visit a couple of LBSes and have my position/fit checked, but I wanted to see if anybody here has any input about any specific areas I should watch...

I've been having a lot of neck pain on longer rides (anything longer than about 90 minutes). It starts with neck pain, and soon I've lower back pain. Once the lower back starts hurting it is really impossible to put in any kind of sustained effort. I start losing contact with my group even though there is something still left in the legs and lungs. I suspect it is the same problem causing both pains, but I might be wrong.

I've noticed too that when I'm riding on the hoods (my favourite position), I've my shoulders scrunched up towards my ears. Occassionally, I correct myself by lowering and relaxing my shoulders, but as soon as I stop concentrating on my position, I'm scrunching my shoulders again.

I've had the same bike for a over 15 years now, and nothing's really changed, except I've started riding a lot more this year than in the last 7-8 years. I did have to change the fork and saddle last year after driving into the garage with the bike on car (but I thought I got everything adjusted back to previous settings).

Earlier in the year, I thought it was a matter of fitness and getting some miles in the saddle, but things haven't really improved after 2-3 months and several hundred miles. I even did a 6.5-hour century suffering through the last 3 hours (with neck and lower-back pain -- my legs and lungs were doing much better).

If you've any advice about any specific areas (eg, handle height, stem length, saddle position/height, etc.) I'll pay particular attention when I'm in the LBS. Thanks in advance for your help.

oneponychick

Find a LBS in your area that is trained and equiped to do a fitting on a Serotta Fit cycle. You can find one by going to www.serotta.com and clicking on find a dealer. Look for one with a technician that has been to the advanced school.

DocRay

There is hardly a need for 'advanced' bike fitting.

Go here to start:

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/za...LCULATOR_INTRO

and read the assocaited PDF-it will basically bring you up to speed with any advanced fitter.

Compare the three fit types to your current setup. The problem is that fit issues do not arise immediately, they arise after hours in the saddle, which is why I never understand why people recommend trying out a $4000 frame at an LBS for fit with a 10 minute ride around the block.

Subtle things to watch for beyond frame geometry:

Handlebar width
saddle shape-some saddles force a pelvic angle which is not good (high rear).
Body symmetry -you may need a chiropractic adjustment, especially if you have an office job.
Check out back exercises and on-bike stretching, pilates stretches.
Read up on pedalling technique and increase out-of-saddle frequency, and time in drops.

'nother

Not to de-emphasize the importance of good fit, but I would also recommend doing some abdominal and core strength work. When you are in the riding position you don't want to be relying on your back to support you; that should come from your core and abs. If you have weak abs, you will get a sore back, no matter how good your bike fit is.

DrPete 

Another factor to consider is that if the bike hasn't changed, maybe YOU have. Both of the things you're describing had a tendency to happen to me on longer and harder rides, especially as I got tired. I learned with the help of a physical therapist who's also on the Armed Forces Cycling Team that it was an issue of core strength and flexibility. As far as the neck/shoulder pain goes, I would make a conscious effort as you're riding to keep a nice, broad back and keep your shoulders relaxed.

As weird as it sounds, the single most helpful thing I've found for builing my flexibility and improving my core strength is Yoga. I found a DVD at REI for 15 bucks called "Yoga Conditioning for Athletes." It has a 60-minute workout and a little 5-10 minute deal that's cycling-specific, mainly focusing on the lower back, hips, and hamstrings. I've been using it for a while now and have been really impressed with the results. Fewer sore muscles and no pain in the lower back. The added bonus is that it's great for getting rid of all the stress of the day--I use it right before bed and the cooldown segment is like meditation. AWESOME.

It might be worth a shot--I really enjoyed it, and I've found it to be a nice low-key conditioning/stretching program...

DrPete

'nother

Yoga++

Good for the mind as well as the body

Naidu

Thanks, all, for your suggestions. I've been doing some core strength off-the-bike exercises as suggested: Mostly abs and lower-back kind of stuff, though I've slacked off a bit in the last couple of weeks. I will consider yoga too (being Indian, it should be a no-brainer for me... :-)).

I also do the on-bike stretches and position changes as suggested above. They help temporarily, but I think there is a more fundamental problem that I'm dealing with. Something in my position or components or fitness is not suitable. I need to find it and fix it.

Again, thanks for the tips!

DrPete 

In the short term, raising your bars or shortening your stem might help, but changing frames might be a bit drastic...

Good luck!

DrPete

Naidu

Yeah, I agree about the new frame. Though I'm thinking about updating my 16-year old steel bike (which was bought with a quick, stand-over measurement and a ride around the parking lot). But I need to solve this problem before I think of a new frame. If a new frame is needed, I'll get one, but I don't want to a make an investment in one without knowing what fits me well...

DrPete 

Yeah, definitely try the yoga. Even if you need a new bike after all, you'll feel less anxious about spending tons of money on your dream bike

DrPete

johnny99

Hunched shoulders indicates that your riding position is too aggressive for your fitness level. Until your fitness level improves, you should try a more relaxed riding position (seat farther back and shorter or higher stem). Here is a good article on bike fit for non-competitive cyclists: https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

Naidu

Thanks for the tips, Johnny. The bike is not setup too agressively -- saddle is maybe 2 inches above the stem and comfortably back (as far as I can tell). I know my fitness is not the greatest, but in previous years (when I was less fit) I don't remember having this much pain/discomfort in the neck-shoulders-low-back areas.

But I'll have to look at all possibilities with an open mind and get this resolved. Thanks!

Jose R

Thanks! I'm ordering it from amazon.

For the first time in many years, I'm experiencing back pain during riding (which I blame on being off the bike for ~4 months due to injuries), so I need to address the same issues as the OP. Flexibility and core strength.

H20.1

With the pain you are having I would suggest checking your reach; this is not likely a fitness problem. Most people regardless of fitness level can ride quite far on a properly fit bike.

1. Clip in and sit on the saddle in the manner you normally would when riding. Move the cranks to a horizontal position and check to make sure your knee is over the pedal spindle. Use the KOPS method (controversial but works for most people to get the saddle in a good spot). Drop a plumb line from the femur bone (shallow depression on side of knee) and see where the line intersects. It should intersect the middle of the pedal spindle.

2. When sitting comfortably on the saddle put your hands in the drops and check to see if your bar obscures your front hub from view. Generally, if your hub is behind the bar in this position, you need a shorter stem. If it is in front, you need a longer one.


This is good basic advice. Many may lambast using these methods in favor of formulas and other nonsense. The truth is that unless you have a coach or a pro fitter on hand, these formulas create more confusion than anything. Try the above method.

*If you still have pain, you may want to consider raising your bars to take weight off of your shoulders.

astrodaimler

I have an older bike and my "fit" on it is the classic racing style. 3" difference between the height of the saddle and the height of the handlebar. You would think that on a century, that style is uncomfortable but it isn't for me. My new'ish Giant, has similar height and distance to the bars but the bars are 1" taller than my older bike.

On a century, after about 50/60 miles, I have tons of pain on my left shoulder and between my shoulder blades. Supposidly, everything I read, that that type of body geometry on a bike is the most comfortable but its not for me. Even Giant support said "gee, you are supposed to be more comfortable in that position than the racing style". The Giant headtube is HUGE so lowering stem is challenging.


What am I getting at? At 1" difference, on a long ride, could be the difference betweem comfort and a lot of pain. I have options right now in fixing it (XS frame, which is unaffordable, or -17 degree stem, and/or removing the Giant headset cover. And, EVERYONE is different. You may be comfortable for rides but once you increase the distance and speed, you may change that style.

Naidu

H20.1: Thanks for the tips, I will check out my position on the bike. Especially the handle-bar/hub relationship.

AstroDaimler: I hear you about small changes making a huge difference for comfort and pain. Just to be clear, my pain is along the spine where the neck joins the body -- not between my shoulder blades as you have. Then it starts in the lower back. Then the power starts going out, even though the legs and lungs are up for more punishment.

Thanks for the tips, all. Keep'em coming!

Corsaire

Not for nothing, but get an X-ray or MRI of you lower back. I had the same problem: "power outage" when I try to go faster or go up a climb while aerobically was fine. It turned out that when I had the "power outage" my lower back muscles went into spasms, making work ever harder until the muscles overstressed just made me slowed down no matter how hard I'd try.
I would check for any herniated disc causing just that by putting pressure on the spine the wrong way down your legs.
Corsaire

markwebb

If you eliminate some physical medical anatomy problem, then look at reach and such. Medically, you could have a problem. Something such as a leg 1/8" shorter than other could cause problems as you get older that was never a problem before. Unequal bilateral muscle mass can cause same thing - more glut (butt) muscle on right can cause over exertion on left and pain. Lots of anatomy issues can cause your problems.

If nothing wrong there, try some of the things I have done over last several years. Buy the widest bars you can find (Rivendell sells some extra wide bars). These wide bars can help relax and open up your shoulders and reduce fatigue. It's made a very positive change for me.

I have also experimented with various length stems. Shorther. longer. The best combo for me has been a slightly longer stem. I think it helped stretch me out, and on longer rides that seems to be better for me. Others find relief from a shorter stem. Try a 10cm change both ways and see what happens.

I also made my seat and bars same height. A slightly more stretched out position with longer stem but even height bars and seat made for a comfortable position for me.

I think all these changes have allowed me to reduce grip strength I need to keep on my bars when riding - I can grip lightly and relax hands/arms/shoulders/neck more with the changes I made. Over the course of a 6 hour ride this helps a lot.

Something else - your frame. All things being equal a steel frame will generally be more comfortable on long rides than most of the under-$2,000 aluminum bikes. In this price range a good steel lugged bike or lugless (like a 2003 Lemond) can help reduce overall road buzz, and after several hours this can really help reduce fatigue and pain.

Another frame consideration - the geometry. If the geometry is pretty aggressive and racy it may take more effort to constantly steer the bike. This makes you grip bars more tightly and leads to keeping arms shoulders and neck more tense and finally pain sets in. A longer wheel base bike with more fork rake can help ease tension in your upper body - just takes less effort to steel over 4-5-6 hours and can reduce pain. I noticed this a lot when I rode a racing Casati and then on other days rode a vintage touring Mercian - the Casati was twitchy and took more effort to ride and track. The Mercian steers itself. I never would have noticed either bike's nuances except for riding them on alternate days. i was a lot fresher after a long ride on Mercian than the Casati. Both were lugged steel set up about the same - only difference was effort needed to steer/track based on difference in whel base length/fork rake/etc.

Hope all this helps - and keep spinning !!!!

roccobike

The comment 'you may have changed' is something to consider. If making some changes to the bike does not correct the problem, you may want to have your doctor check the spacing of your neck discs to be sure separation is correct. Arthritis may be setting in. Hey, it happens to most of us in varying degrees.

AnthonyG

Certainly consider bike fit but one other possible cause to consider is Magnesium defficiency!

Seriously, See, https://www.healthy.net/asp/templates...Article&ID=541

I had been experiencing simmilar symptoms to you. Because of various other issues I realized I've been magnesium defficient and when I came across this article things fell into place. When your exercising you use up vitamins and minerals so while you may be OK at rest or for a short while if you push on long enough you become defficient and so the symptoms surface.

Regards, Anthony

ManBearPig

Yall be making dis way too complicated. It ain't likely your fitness or yoga or age or weak abs or anything like that. Your bike is simply way off in terms of fit and I would bet $$$ it's the wrong size to begin with. It's putting you in a bad riding position. You didn't feel it before, but now you are riding more, so now you feel the effects. That's it in a nutshell.

$100 says your bike is too big. Specifically, the top tube of your frame is too large. It causes you to lean too far forward, which causes neck pain, scrunched shoulders, and back pain.

1) The too-long top tube requires you to cock your head too far back in order to see the road. That's the most likely cause of your neck pain. Sure, you can later work on fine-tuning your line of sight, such as focusing on 2 car lengths ahead and not 4, but that is a fine adjustment, not something that should cause the amount of discomfort you are experiencing.

2) The too long top-tube places too much weight on your arms to support your upper torso. That's the reason for the scrunched shoulders.

3) The too-long top tube causes too drastic of a bend in your lower back. Presto -- there's the cause of your back pain.

You can shorten the stem, but that is a poor compromise. The only real way to fix the prob is buy the correct sized frame.

Please post back and tell me I was right once you figure it out. But don't get your "pro fitting" at a shop where you bought your bike, because they will lie about your fit to save their arse.

Naidu

Wow, lots of different things to consider here. I will look into the fit issues first, and then work on physiological stuff.

Also, both pain areas are muscle related, I feel. I don't really have a problem off the bike.

I will post back on what I find.

And, yeah, no chance of me going back to the shop where I bought the bike. It was several years ago, several towns ago, and I'm not sure that the business still exists.

Thanks, everybody!

ManBearPig

No prob. I speak from painful past experience.

Start with the most obvious cause (frame size), and hopefully save costly and time-consuming yoga class, magnesium replacement therapy, back surgery, acupuncture, clinical hypnotherapy, extreme 20-minute ab videos, 40mm stems, 140mm stems, unequal bilateral muscle mass, alien abduction, and most other obscure solutions that may be suggested in the process. The simplest answer is often the most correct.

Sounds like you are ready to conclude this thread, but if you post again, please be sure to include:

Your height
Your current nominal frame size.

Naidu

Towlie: 6ft 0in is my height. I think it is a 24" frame size. Not sure since I bought it about 15 years ago.

ManBearPig

OR, I could be absolutely freakin' wrong.

24" is like 61cm, right? That does sound a little large, but not as bad as I suspected. Maybe magnesium deficiency is the solution after all.

(EDIT: it varies from mfr to mfr and model to model, but as a rough generalization, on the charts I have seen, I think a 6' rider can be fit on most 58cm, which is typically a size, maybe 2 down from a 61. also, I have no idea what geometry was like 15 years ago and how it might affect sizing).

Seriously though, I'd at least get an opinion from a knowledgeable bike shop if your reach might be too long. Depending on stem length and seat height, you might be able to work with it.

Glad I didn't actually lay down the $100.