An e-bike is going to happen eventually
#176
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Physics 101: It takes the same amount of work to climb a hill regardless of gearing. The pedal force is less, but the total work is the same because the reduced force has to be expended for a greater period of time.
Last edited by Biker395; 07-07-19 at 02:29 PM.
#177
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But the analogies offered here are nonsense. Exhibit 1: <removing those that are utterly irrelevant to cycling>
And as for this:
There's no hypocrisy, ignorance or arrogance in making the choice to buy to buy one and arguing again and again that there is no fundamental difference between the two?
I have no dog in the e-bike fight and will probably avail my SO to the use of one in the near future. Who knows ... maybe I'll avail myself to one as well. But when I do, hopefully, I'll be self-confident enough to accept my decision for what it is, not pretend that is analogous to adding lower gears or higher pressure tires. It defies even a basic understanding of physics and is just not true, no matter now many times it is repeated.
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#178
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If you read a history of the Tour De France you will see Desgrange was against teams, and gear changes. He wasn’t impressed when they came out with replaceable gears and there was no wheel changes if you were not hauling the spare wheel on your back for the whole race. The older pros thought shifting was unmanly. It took a while for multiple gears to be excepted.
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C'mon now. That is utter nonsense. As has been pointed out multiple times before, that isn't true.
Physics 101: It takes the same amount of work to climb a hill regardless of gearing. The pedal force is less, but the total work is the same because the reduced force has to be expended for a greater period of time.
Physics 101: It takes the same amount of work to climb a hill regardless of gearing. The pedal force is less, but the total work is the same because the reduced force has to be expended for a greater period of time.
#180
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Me too. It looks like I might get a chance to do some riding in Europe this year, and by the wonder of e-bikes, my SO might actually go along and ride with me.
But the analogies offered here are nonsense. Exhibit 1: <removing those that are utterly irrelevant to cycling>
I'm not sure what is meant by "cheating" here, but none of those items involves supplementing human power with a motor. Huge difference.
And as for this:
You could have bought a bike with narrower tires, a suspension, drop bars, aero bars, aero wheels, and yes, you could have shaved your legs. But you didn't. You bought an ebike because it had a motor that adds energy to the bike, not simply make best use of your own human energy.
There's no hypocrisy, ignorance or arrogance in making the choice to buy to buy one and arguing again and again that there is no fundamental difference between the two?
I have no dog in the e-bike fight and will probably avail my SO to the use of one in the near future. Who knows ... maybe I'll avail myself to one as well. But when I do, hopefully, I'll be self-confident enough to accept my decision for what it is, not pretend that is analogous to adding lower gears or higher pressure tires. It defies even a basic understanding of physics and is just not true, no matter now many times it is repeated.
But the analogies offered here are nonsense. Exhibit 1: <removing those that are utterly irrelevant to cycling>
I'm not sure what is meant by "cheating" here, but none of those items involves supplementing human power with a motor. Huge difference.
And as for this:
You could have bought a bike with narrower tires, a suspension, drop bars, aero bars, aero wheels, and yes, you could have shaved your legs. But you didn't. You bought an ebike because it had a motor that adds energy to the bike, not simply make best use of your own human energy.
There's no hypocrisy, ignorance or arrogance in making the choice to buy to buy one and arguing again and again that there is no fundamental difference between the two?
I have no dog in the e-bike fight and will probably avail my SO to the use of one in the near future. Who knows ... maybe I'll avail myself to one as well. But when I do, hopefully, I'll be self-confident enough to accept my decision for what it is, not pretend that is analogous to adding lower gears or higher pressure tires. It defies even a basic understanding of physics and is just not true, no matter now many times it is repeated.
EDIT; Yes it take the same amount of energy to do the same amount of work... BUT, If you are more efficient, it can be done with less amount of time... thus at the end of the day you can accomplish more... Cause yous got;s more time to do it in. Like walking to work 5Kms = 1Hr, riding to work on a bicycle= 1/2 Hr, yes you still spent the same amount of energy, to do the same thing, but you halved the time... How F'n great is that...???
Last edited by 350htrr; 07-07-19 at 07:06 PM. Reason: add stuff
#181
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I will never ever own an electric powered bicycle that is not licensed for highway use. When I am on a trail or road ride with a section that I cannot ride under my own power, I walk my bike. Perhaps it is too technical and I don't have the skills. Or it is too steep and I don't have the strength. Or maybe that day at that moment, I AM TOO D@MN LAZY. What is wrong with walking your bike if you are not strong enough or if you are tired? Sheesh!!!
And leave your hiking boots at home. Those are for wussies. And your clothes too. Coats, shirts and pants are for wussies.
And why you are typing on a computer or smartphone, using batteries and electrical chargers and outlets? Talk about being too damn lazy.
Go crawl back in a cave and carve on the walls. Everyone else is too damn lazy.
#182
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The fear is that people on e-bikes going on trails on which they are forbidden can affect trail access for all. In some places trail access for bicycles has been hard fought and can be revoked if the powers that be decide to do so.
I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying e-bikes hurt the trail more than regular bikes or anything close.
I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying e-bikes hurt the trail more than regular bikes or anything close.
If the problem is a subset of e bike riders who act like idiots, then that solution is to ticket them, just like we ticket auto drivers who act like idiots but don't ban cars.
#183
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The fear is that people on e-bikes going on trails on which they are forbidden can affect trail access for all. In some places trail access for bicycles has been hard fought and can be revoked if the powers that be decide to do so.
I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying e-bikes hurt the trail more than regular bikes or anything close.
I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying e-bikes hurt the trail more than regular bikes or anything close.
Add to that, a fat rider of 300 lbs poses far more of a threat to a hiker in a crash than a fit 150 lbs rider on a 50 lbs bike. If the weight of e-bikes is an issue, then all fat riders should be banned straight away.
It's really amazing that people are so willfully ignorant of the facts.
The greatest threat to trails is rain. Must ban water!
#184
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One of my (many) fears with these powered bicycles, is that even if speed limits are imposed, these things will just start getting bigger and bigger, until they become not much different than ATV's. With a set of pedals bolted on, of course, for sheer irony.
We've seen SUV's get continuously bigger and taller, what's stopping "ebikes" from doing the same thing?
We've seen SUV's get continuously bigger and taller, what's stopping "ebikes" from doing the same thing?
#185
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I get that the perception of e-bikes threatens non-urban trail access, but honestly the problem is with the perception and the people perceiving, not with the e-bikes. It's hard to believe an e-bike that goes no faster than a human can pedal will cause more damage to trails, particularly as they get even lighter in weight. The problem is a perception which needs to change; e bikes aren't going to go away, they will become more prevalent.
If the problem is a subset of e bike riders who act like idiots, then that solution is to ticket them, just like we ticket auto drivers who act like idiots but don't ban cars.
If the problem is a subset of e bike riders who act like idiots, then that solution is to ticket them, just like we ticket auto drivers who act like idiots but don't ban cars.
#186
Senior Member
Me too. It looks like I might get a chance to do some riding in Europe this year, and by the wonder of e-bikes, my SO might actually go along and ride with me.
But the analogies offered here are nonsense. Exhibit 1: <removing those that are utterly irrelevant to cycling>
I'm not sure what is meant by "cheating" here, but none of those items involves supplementing human power with a motor. Huge difference.
But the analogies offered here are nonsense. Exhibit 1: <removing those that are utterly irrelevant to cycling>
I'm not sure what is meant by "cheating" here, but none of those items involves supplementing human power with a motor. Huge difference.
And as for this:
You could have bought a bike with narrower tires, a suspension, drop bars, aero bars, aero wheels, and yes, you could have shaved your legs. But you didn't. You bought an ebike because it had a motor that adds energy to the bike, not simply make best use of your own human energy.
There's no hypocrisy, ignorance or arrogance in making the choice to buy to buy one and arguing again and again that there is no fundamental difference between the two?
I have no dog in the e-bike fight and will probably avail my SO to the use of one in the near future. Who knows ... maybe I'll avail myself to one as well. But when I do, hopefully, I'll be self-confident enough to accept my decision for what it is, not pretend that is analogous to adding lower gears or higher pressure tires. It defies even a basic understanding of physics and is just not true, no matter now many times it is repeated.
You could have bought a bike with narrower tires, a suspension, drop bars, aero bars, aero wheels, and yes, you could have shaved your legs. But you didn't. You bought an ebike because it had a motor that adds energy to the bike, not simply make best use of your own human energy.
There's no hypocrisy, ignorance or arrogance in making the choice to buy to buy one and arguing again and again that there is no fundamental difference between the two?
I have no dog in the e-bike fight and will probably avail my SO to the use of one in the near future. Who knows ... maybe I'll avail myself to one as well. But when I do, hopefully, I'll be self-confident enough to accept my decision for what it is, not pretend that is analogous to adding lower gears or higher pressure tires. It defies even a basic understanding of physics and is just not true, no matter now many times it is repeated.
A bicycle with a motor "adds energy" in addition to rotational inertia. If you are opposed to any technology that "adds energy" stop riding a bicycle.
Stop using any technology that "adds energy" then. They're all the tools of Satan. Just crawl back into a cave and paint on the walls.
#187
Senior Member
One of my (many) fears with these powered bicycles, is that even if speed limits are imposed, these things will just start getting bigger and bigger, until they become not much different than ATV's. With a set of pedals bolted on, of course, for sheer irony.
We've seen SUV's get continuously bigger and taller, what's stopping "ebikes" from doing the same thing?
We've seen SUV's get continuously bigger and taller, what's stopping "ebikes" from doing the same thing?
Last edited by 350htrr; 07-07-19 at 07:01 PM.
#188
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A friend, and road rider, told me he had purchased a new bike. Would not tell me what it was, said I'd see it on the next ride. Seeing as he is 79, and has had knee surgery, and just recently gotten rid of the brace he had to wear, I figured I'd see an e-bike. Well, no e-bike! It was a hybrid-not a top of the line, lightweight model either. It has some weight to it. I told him I thought I'd be seeing a new e-bike. He replied that it's going to be a long way off before he might buy an e-bike. Sounds like eventually is a bit down the road for him.
Now that's just for the physical part. I'm not against e-bikes, just at the idea of an"its better than nothing" substituent for true exercise. An e-bike can still be ridden for fun, transportation, etc. so that its not about the supplanting exercise and health benefits.
The same thing that stopped the mopeds from being considered a bicycle... Too much power/speed, and not really needed to be pedaled to be operated as a bicycle,... After a certain amount of time, and the number of people riding them increased to be a problem, the Laws caught up, and were changed... BY the way, Bicycles and Legal E-Bikes, compared to SUV's are not in the same category, not even close…
#189
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I get that the perception of e-bikes threatens non-urban trail access, but honestly the problem is with the perception and the people perceiving, not with the e-bikes. It's hard to believe an e-bike that goes no faster than a human can pedal will cause more damage to trails, particularly as they get even lighter in weight. The problem is a perception which needs to change; e bikes aren't going to go away, they will become more prevalent.
If the problem is a subset of e bike riders who act like idiots, then that solution is to ticket them, just like we ticket auto drivers who act like idiots but don't ban cars.
If the problem is a subset of e bike riders who act like idiots, then that solution is to ticket them, just like we ticket auto drivers who act like idiots but don't ban cars.
#190
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In the EU, the motor cuts off at just 15.5 mph. In the US, at 20 mph for mtb motors. Just about any rider can ride far faster than that on a relatively smooth fire road, or most any descent, really.
Add to that, a fat rider of 300 lbs poses far more of a threat to a hiker in a crash than a fit 150 lbs rider on a 50 lbs bike. If the weight of e-bikes is an issue, then all fat riders should be banned straight away.
It's really amazing that people are so willfully ignorant of the facts.
The greatest threat to trails is rain. Must ban water!
Add to that, a fat rider of 300 lbs poses far more of a threat to a hiker in a crash than a fit 150 lbs rider on a 50 lbs bike. If the weight of e-bikes is an issue, then all fat riders should be banned straight away.
It's really amazing that people are so willfully ignorant of the facts.
The greatest threat to trails is rain. Must ban water!
#191
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No one has to talk to the Forrest service. It is already under consideration. And analog bikes are not allowed on hiking trails and horse paths so e bikes aren't allowed either.
It seems it is coming much like automatic transmissions in cars did. There are die hard people that, row their own gears, but they are part of an ever growing minority.
As as far as exercise there is a fitness center every few blocks and you don’t have to dodge cars. And just because you have an e bike does mean you “have to” use the assist when you don’t need it. Let’s be real for a minute. All the people we see in the city riding hybrids at 10 to 12 mph around town are not getting their HR into zone 2. Most of the people riding on MUPs are not pushing a HR into real exercise zone.
Yes 3 to 5 days a week, 20 to 45 miles a day, 20 to 24 mph is exercise. Spin class exercise. Even jogger exercise.
Still most people buy buy a bike, discover it is hard to ride on a windy day and too much work on a long hill ant the bike ends up hanging in the garage and finally a garage sale. If the goal is exercise and sweat then nothing is going to change. Cycling will be for the ultra minority and even a smaller number of women. Been that way since my first Varsity and it is still that way now with Trek Edmonds SLR 9s. It doesn’t get easier or more popular.
There is one fast growing segment and that is because it is adding fun back into the equation. It isn’t like E bikes are replacing manual bikes. Manual bikes have just remained stagnate for so many years and something has to mix things up or the industry will die. Just my opinion. No reason to give up manual bikes just they may have reached their maximum influence in today’s world.
Here red is a perspective that might be worth looking at, or not.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.a11455822814
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Thanks for being civil in an obviously emotional thread.
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That's fine with me. I don't care about e-bikes on the trails or the roads as long as the riders aren't a menace. I don't care about any of the other stuff in your post because I don't have an e-bike. Maybe some day I will, who can say? I've had off road motorcycles and I loved them.
Thanks for being civil in an obviously emotional thread.
Thanks for being civil in an obviously emotional thread.
No one is right for anyone but themselves. And everyone is right for how they feel about the subject. , for themselves.
#197
Senior Member
OK, This is my LAST post on here, unless someone asks a specific Q directed at me... Before I get …
My "theory IS" already out there...
Walking for 10 Hrs; an average person goes 50Kms (100% human powered).
Riding a single speed for 10 Hrs and the same person gets 100Kms (100% human powered).
Riding a 27 speed for 10 Hrs and the same person gets 200KMs (100% human powered).
What IS the "difference"...??? It's still all 100% human powered, right.?
It;s efficiency... ??? at least I think so...
So, the "reason a person can go from 50Kms in a 10 Hr day walking, to 100Kms in a 10 Hr day is that the bicycle has wheels"... a mechanical assistant/advantage...
So, the "reason a person can go from 100Kms in a 10 Hr day to 200 KMs in a 10 Hr day on a 27 speed bicycle is the gearing on a bicycle"... a mechanical assistant/advantage...
We went from 50KM a 10 Hr day to 200Kms a 10Hr day, all human powered, (with some mechanical advantage's thrown in there)... WOW... NOT cheating the (IT takes a certain amount of effort to do a certain amount of work, physics 101) at all...
Now, we come to the infamous E-Bike... In my case I would go from...
50Kms walking, to 120Kms riding a single speed, to 220Kms riding a 27 speed... a 20Km (motor) advantage on either bicycle, a single speed or a 27 speed... What is actually more advantageous to have to go farther easier than walking...??? a single speed YES, or a 27 speed YES, on a bicycle that can move you 2X farther or 4X farther than walking, and yes another 20Kms on top of those numbers IS EVEN BETTER... BUT that 20KMs IS a MOTOR, Bad, very bad, but it's NOT bad to use a (mechanical advantage)...
"IF" I was to ride my E-Assist as a moped and use the throttle and NOT pedal, I would get 20Kms in TOTAL, on a charge, probably not make it up any hill more than 3% as 350 watts hub motor just doesn't do it by itself, as it doesn't go thru the gearing, it's a hub motor without gears, I suspect if it did have gears and/or did go through the gearing like a mid-drive it would make it up on it's own on pretty well any hill. But the way it is right now, an EU Legal hub motor set up, I GOT"S to pedal... BUT guess what, In the US Legal E-Bike setting 750 Watts, I would not need to pedal anywhere... and perhaps those are the E-Bikes that most who are against E-Bikes on here are thinking about...
My "theory IS" already out there...
Walking for 10 Hrs; an average person goes 50Kms (100% human powered).
Riding a single speed for 10 Hrs and the same person gets 100Kms (100% human powered).
Riding a 27 speed for 10 Hrs and the same person gets 200KMs (100% human powered).
What IS the "difference"...??? It's still all 100% human powered, right.?
It;s efficiency... ??? at least I think so...
So, the "reason a person can go from 50Kms in a 10 Hr day walking, to 100Kms in a 10 Hr day is that the bicycle has wheels"... a mechanical assistant/advantage...
So, the "reason a person can go from 100Kms in a 10 Hr day to 200 KMs in a 10 Hr day on a 27 speed bicycle is the gearing on a bicycle"... a mechanical assistant/advantage...
We went from 50KM a 10 Hr day to 200Kms a 10Hr day, all human powered, (with some mechanical advantage's thrown in there)... WOW... NOT cheating the (IT takes a certain amount of effort to do a certain amount of work, physics 101) at all...
Now, we come to the infamous E-Bike... In my case I would go from...
50Kms walking, to 120Kms riding a single speed, to 220Kms riding a 27 speed... a 20Km (motor) advantage on either bicycle, a single speed or a 27 speed... What is actually more advantageous to have to go farther easier than walking...??? a single speed YES, or a 27 speed YES, on a bicycle that can move you 2X farther or 4X farther than walking, and yes another 20Kms on top of those numbers IS EVEN BETTER... BUT that 20KMs IS a MOTOR, Bad, very bad, but it's NOT bad to use a (mechanical advantage)...
"IF" I was to ride my E-Assist as a moped and use the throttle and NOT pedal, I would get 20Kms in TOTAL, on a charge, probably not make it up any hill more than 3% as 350 watts hub motor just doesn't do it by itself, as it doesn't go thru the gearing, it's a hub motor without gears, I suspect if it did have gears and/or did go through the gearing like a mid-drive it would make it up on it's own on pretty well any hill. But the way it is right now, an EU Legal hub motor set up, I GOT"S to pedal... BUT guess what, In the US Legal E-Bike setting 750 Watts, I would not need to pedal anywhere... and perhaps those are the E-Bikes that most who are against E-Bikes on here are thinking about...
Last edited by 350htrr; 07-12-19 at 10:26 AM.
#198
Senior Member
There's certainly nothing morally wrong with using mechanical advantage. There's nothing wrong with using any form of technology as long as it is sustainable.
This entire thread is about a bunch of old guys getting triggered because they are afraid of change.
This entire thread is about a bunch of old guys getting triggered because they are afraid of change.
#199
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Why are there so many e-bike haters on this forum. An e-bike user cannot have a decent conversation or discussion. Why don't you live and let live. I don't bad mouth you. Get a life and get off the forum. I am.
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Look, we're all getting older. Our bodies aren't 20 something anymore, and regardless of those 70 year olds who crow about their ability to still ride a century...well, they're in the minority. I know too many (men and especially women) who no longer ride because it isn't fun anymore. The older the body gets, unless kept in constant training, the more it resists. And training begins to be a grind, no longer fun anymore. So people just stop riding until fun re-enters the equation.
The ebike brings back the fun. It returns the "youth", it returns the smiles, and lets the older rider (like me) remember why riding became so much a part of our lives. Heck, I'd rather see a person grinning from ear to ear riding an ebike than standing on the sidelines, just watching (as happens at every single one of the big charity rides I've attended). I feel so bad for those who relegate themselves to being a spectator, for whatever reason, when there is a door open if they would just take that step and try something that will help them ride. I've talked to so many of these former riders, and almost everyone has been very receptive and intrigued enough to ask numerous questions to judge if an ebike will get them back out on the road. Seeing some of the older crowd rocking their ebikes and e-trikes with grins and enthusiam is such a wonderful thing to observe, and spreads the smiles all around.
We're all one big family with our bikes, energized by the pedals and wheels under us, the roads open to us, the crowd comradery, the private solo rides on our own. It's not the number of miles you ride - it's the experience and the joy you get out of riding itself. To each their own, and on this forum I'd rather be giving thumbs up and waves to fellow graying haired bike riders than being judgemental on their chosen bike.
Last edited by momsonherbike; 07-09-19 at 12:14 AM.