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An e-bike is going to happen eventually

Old 07-07-19, 02:19 PM
  #176  
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Originally Posted by linberl
I often wonder if people acted the same when bikes went from single speed to geared....since gears artificially multiply your effort, too.
C'mon now. That is utter nonsense. As has been pointed out multiple times before, that isn't true.

Physics 101: It takes the same amount of work to climb a hill regardless of gearing. The pedal force is less, but the total work is the same because the reduced force has to be expended for a greater period of time.

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Old 07-07-19, 03:05 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by big john
Let me just say that I am not a "naysayer" and I have nothing against e-assist or e-whatever as long as the rider is not a menace to others. Some of the analogies used here are dubious, however.
Me too. It looks like I might get a chance to do some riding in Europe this year, and by the wonder of e-bikes, my SO might actually go along and ride with me.

But the analogies offered here are nonsense. Exhibit 1: <removing those that are utterly irrelevant to cycling>

Originally Posted by radroad

Narrow tires are cheating compared to fat tires.

Suspension is cheating.

Drop bars are cheating.

Aero bars are cheating.

Aero frames are cheating.

Aero wheels are cheating.

Shaving your legs is cheating.
I'm not sure what is meant by "cheating" here, but none of those items involves supplementing human power with a motor. Huge difference.

And as for this:

Originally Posted by radroad

The levels of hypocrisy, ignorance and arrogance are reaching comical levels of ineptitude.

Just stop with the b.s.
You could have bought a bike with narrower tires, a suspension, drop bars, aero bars, aero wheels, and yes, you could have shaved your legs. But you didn't. You bought an ebike because it had a motor that adds energy to the bike, not simply make best use of your own human energy.

There's no hypocrisy, ignorance or arrogance in making the choice to buy to buy one and arguing again and again that there is no fundamental difference between the two?

I have no dog in the e-bike fight and will probably avail my SO to the use of one in the near future. Who knows ... maybe I'll avail myself to one as well. But when I do, hopefully, I'll be self-confident enough to accept my decision for what it is, not pretend that is analogous to adding lower gears or higher pressure tires. It defies even a basic understanding of physics and is just not true, no matter now many times it is repeated.
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Old 07-07-19, 03:12 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by linberl
I often wonder if people acted the same when bikes went from single speed to geared....since gears artificially multiply your effort, too.
If you read a history of the Tour De France you will see Desgrange was against teams, and gear changes. He wasn’t impressed when they came out with replaceable gears and there was no wheel changes if you were not hauling the spare wheel on your back for the whole race. The older pros thought shifting was unmanly. It took a while for multiple gears to be excepted.
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Old 07-07-19, 03:21 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by Biker395
C'mon now. That is utter nonsense. As has been pointed out multiple times before, that isn't true.

Physics 101: It takes the same amount of work to climb a hill regardless of gearing. The pedal force is less, but the total work is the same because the reduced force has to be expended for a greater period of time.
Pointed out multiple times in this very thread, doesn't seem to sink in. Self =motor vs Self+ battery=motor. KISS.
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Old 07-07-19, 05:00 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by Biker395
Me too. It looks like I might get a chance to do some riding in Europe this year, and by the wonder of e-bikes, my SO might actually go along and ride with me.

But the analogies offered here are nonsense. Exhibit 1: <removing those that are utterly irrelevant to cycling>



I'm not sure what is meant by "cheating" here, but none of those items involves supplementing human power with a motor. Huge difference.

And as for this:



You could have bought a bike with narrower tires, a suspension, drop bars, aero bars, aero wheels, and yes, you could have shaved your legs. But you didn't. You bought an ebike because it had a motor that adds energy to the bike, not simply make best use of your own human energy.

There's no hypocrisy, ignorance or arrogance in making the choice to buy to buy one and arguing again and again that there is no fundamental difference between the two?

I have no dog in the e-bike fight and will probably avail my SO to the use of one in the near future. Who knows ... maybe I'll avail myself to one as well. But when I do, hopefully, I'll be self-confident enough to accept my decision for what it is, not pretend that is analogous to adding lower gears or higher pressure tires. It defies even a basic understanding of physics and is just not true, no matter now many times it is repeated.
Exactly... and... By the way, nobody, said a motor was the same... What is being said is that, mechanical efficiency, rolling efficiency aero efficiency and so on ends up doing/being, the same thing... Allowing the human input to be put to better use and going farther/faster, easier… In effect, to allow less energy to end up doing the same amount of work in the same amount of TIME... One does it/can do it by a motor assist, or the other ways to do the same thing, is with (gearing/rolling/aero lighter bike, and so on) Thus a person can actually end up spending the same amount of energy/time doing lets say 200Kms on a 27 speed compared to the same amount of energy/time, on a single speed and end up only doing 100Kms, or only get 50Kms walking, (using the same amount of energy and time... How difficult is THAT to understand…??? NOT the same thing, But, it ends up doing the same thing...

EDIT; Yes it take the same amount of energy to do the same amount of work... BUT, If you are more efficient, it can be done with less amount of time... thus at the end of the day you can accomplish more... Cause yous got;s more time to do it in. Like walking to work 5Kms = 1Hr, riding to work on a bicycle= 1/2 Hr, yes you still spent the same amount of energy, to do the same thing, but you halved the time... How F'n great is that...???

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Old 07-07-19, 05:42 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by Classtime
I will never ever own an electric powered bicycle that is not licensed for highway use. When I am on a trail or road ride with a section that I cannot ride under my own power, I walk my bike. Perhaps it is too technical and I don't have the skills. Or it is too steep and I don't have the strength. Or maybe that day at that moment, I AM TOO D@MN LAZY. What is wrong with walking your bike if you are not strong enough or if you are tired? Sheesh!!!
If e-bike riders are too damn lazy, then so are YOU for riding a bike in the first place. Riding a bike is cheating compared to hiking. Exploiting the rotational inertia of two wheels is CHEATING. Just walk the trail, son.

And leave your hiking boots at home. Those are for wussies. And your clothes too. Coats, shirts and pants are for wussies.

And why you are typing on a computer or smartphone, using batteries and electrical chargers and outlets? Talk about being too damn lazy.

Go crawl back in a cave and carve on the walls. Everyone else is too damn lazy.
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Old 07-07-19, 05:45 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by big john
The fear is that people on e-bikes going on trails on which they are forbidden can affect trail access for all. In some places trail access for bicycles has been hard fought and can be revoked if the powers that be decide to do so.
I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying e-bikes hurt the trail more than regular bikes or anything close.
I get that the perception of e-bikes threatens non-urban trail access, but honestly the problem is with the perception and the people perceiving, not with the e-bikes. It's hard to believe an e-bike that goes no faster than a human can pedal will cause more damage to trails, particularly as they get even lighter in weight. The problem is a perception which needs to change; e bikes aren't going to go away, they will become more prevalent.
If the problem is a subset of e bike riders who act like idiots, then that solution is to ticket them, just like we ticket auto drivers who act like idiots but don't ban cars.
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Old 07-07-19, 05:48 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by big john
The fear is that people on e-bikes going on trails on which they are forbidden can affect trail access for all. In some places trail access for bicycles has been hard fought and can be revoked if the powers that be decide to do so.
I'm not saying it's right and I'm not saying e-bikes hurt the trail more than regular bikes or anything close.
In the EU, the motor cuts off at just 15.5 mph. In the US, at 20 mph for mtb motors. Just about any rider can ride far faster than that on a relatively smooth fire road, or most any descent, really.

Add to that, a fat rider of 300 lbs poses far more of a threat to a hiker in a crash than a fit 150 lbs rider on a 50 lbs bike. If the weight of e-bikes is an issue, then all fat riders should be banned straight away.

It's really amazing that people are so willfully ignorant of the facts.

The greatest threat to trails is rain. Must ban water!
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Old 07-07-19, 05:53 PM
  #184  
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One of my (many) fears with these powered bicycles, is that even if speed limits are imposed, these things will just start getting bigger and bigger, until they become not much different than ATV's. With a set of pedals bolted on, of course, for sheer irony.

We've seen SUV's get continuously bigger and taller, what's stopping "ebikes" from doing the same thing?
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Old 07-07-19, 05:54 PM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by linberl
I get that the perception of e-bikes threatens non-urban trail access, but honestly the problem is with the perception and the people perceiving, not with the e-bikes. It's hard to believe an e-bike that goes no faster than a human can pedal will cause more damage to trails, particularly as they get even lighter in weight. The problem is a perception which needs to change; e bikes aren't going to go away, they will become more prevalent.
If the problem is a subset of e bike riders who act like idiots, then that solution is to ticket them, just like we ticket auto drivers who act like idiots but don't ban cars.
UNFORTUNATELLY, that is not the rule, The Legal limit is 750Watts/28MPH...and then there is the "off road versions" I actually understand most peoples "fears/mistrust" of E-Bikes. Because here in N. America the "limit" for what is considered a bicycle Legally) has, been set too high... JMO...
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Old 07-07-19, 05:59 PM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Biker395
Me too. It looks like I might get a chance to do some riding in Europe this year, and by the wonder of e-bikes, my SO might actually go along and ride with me.

But the analogies offered here are nonsense. Exhibit 1: <removing those that are utterly irrelevant to cycling>



I'm not sure what is meant by "cheating" here, but none of those items involves supplementing human power with a motor. Huge difference.
A bicycle supplements human power by providing the rotational inertia of two wheels. An e-bicycle supplements human power even more with a motor. Simple.

Originally Posted by Biker395
And as for this:



You could have bought a bike with narrower tires, a suspension, drop bars, aero bars, aero wheels, and yes, you could have shaved your legs. But you didn't. You bought an ebike because it had a motor that adds energy to the bike, not simply make best use of your own human energy.

There's no hypocrisy, ignorance or arrogance in making the choice to buy to buy one and arguing again and again that there is no fundamental difference between the two?

I have no dog in the e-bike fight and will probably avail my SO to the use of one in the near future. Who knows ... maybe I'll avail myself to one as well. But when I do, hopefully, I'll be self-confident enough to accept my decision for what it is, not pretend that is analogous to adding lower gears or higher pressure tires. It defies even a basic understanding of physics and is just not true, no matter now many times it is repeated.
Fail again, buddy. You will travel at a far faster speed on a bicycle than you would walking with the same level of effort. A bicycle without a motor "adds energy" through rotational inertia. You can stick your head in the sand all you want to, though.

A bicycle with a motor "adds energy" in addition to rotational inertia. If you are opposed to any technology that "adds energy" stop riding a bicycle.

Stop using any technology that "adds energy" then. They're all the tools of Satan. Just crawl back into a cave and paint on the walls.
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Old 07-07-19, 06:03 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985
One of my (many) fears with these powered bicycles, is that even if speed limits are imposed, these things will just start getting bigger and bigger, until they become not much different than ATV's. With a set of pedals bolted on, of course, for sheer irony.

We've seen SUV's get continuously bigger and taller, what's stopping "ebikes" from doing the same thing?
The same thing that stopped the mopeds from being considered a bicycle... Too much power/speed, and not really needed to be pedaled to be operated as a bicycle,... After a certain amount of time, and the number of people riding them increased to be a problem, the Laws caught up, and were changed... BY the way, Bicycles and Legal E-Bikes, compared to SUV's are not in the same category, not even close…

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Old 07-07-19, 07:52 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by freeranger
A friend, and road rider, told me he had purchased a new bike. Would not tell me what it was, said I'd see it on the next ride. Seeing as he is 79, and has had knee surgery, and just recently gotten rid of the brace he had to wear, I figured I'd see an e-bike. Well, no e-bike! It was a hybrid-not a top of the line, lightweight model either. It has some weight to it. I told him I thought I'd be seeing a new e-bike. He replied that it's going to be a long way off before he might buy an e-bike. Sounds like eventually is a bit down the road for him.
You friend is wise, but too many others use age as an excuse to count themselves out long before it truly is necessary. When I got to a point where I couldn't pedal straight and level despite my best effort then I'd see the need for an e-bike.

Now that's just for the physical part. I'm not against e-bikes, just at the idea of an"its better than nothing" substituent for true exercise. An e-bike can still be ridden for fun, transportation, etc. so that its not about the supplanting exercise and health benefits.
Originally Posted by 350htrr
The same thing that stopped the mopeds from being considered a bicycle... Too much power/speed, and not really needed to be pedaled to be operated as a bicycle,... After a certain amount of time, and the number of people riding them increased to be a problem, the Laws caught up, and were changed... BY the way, Bicycles and Legal E-Bikes, compared to SUV's are not in the same category, not even close…
Not a good analogy. Mopeds fell out of favor because they were loud, messy, unreliable, and had an uncomfortable design. They were also heavy so you couldn't put them on a bus rack. And because of their fuel tank, you most certainly couldn't take them on a train. E-bikes on the other hand, are quiet, look like conventional bicycles, and environmentally clean and safe.
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Old 07-07-19, 08:06 PM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by linberl
I get that the perception of e-bikes threatens non-urban trail access, but honestly the problem is with the perception and the people perceiving, not with the e-bikes. It's hard to believe an e-bike that goes no faster than a human can pedal will cause more damage to trails, particularly as they get even lighter in weight. The problem is a perception which needs to change; e bikes aren't going to go away, they will become more prevalent.
If the problem is a subset of e bike riders who act like idiots, then that solution is to ticket them, just like we ticket auto drivers who act like idiots but don't ban cars.
I don't know what line of reasoning the lawmakers use to restrict e-bike access to the trails but they are well marked where I go. Don't know what the penalty is, either, but I would guess it is in the neighborhood of $200.
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Old 07-07-19, 08:09 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by radroad
In the EU, the motor cuts off at just 15.5 mph. In the US, at 20 mph for mtb motors. Just about any rider can ride far faster than that on a relatively smooth fire road, or most any descent, really.

Add to that, a fat rider of 300 lbs poses far more of a threat to a hiker in a crash than a fit 150 lbs rider on a 50 lbs bike. If the weight of e-bikes is an issue, then all fat riders should be banned straight away.

It's really amazing that people are so willfully ignorant of the facts.

The greatest threat to trails is rain. Must ban water!
Maybe you should contact the Forrest Service and other land managers and insult them and badger them with your obnoxious analogies. Maybe they will change the law once they see the wisdom of your words.
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Old 07-07-19, 09:34 PM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by big john
Maybe you should contact the Forrest Service and other land managers and insult them and badger them with your obnoxious analogies. Maybe they will change the law once they see the wisdom of your words.
a

No one has to talk to the Forrest service. It is already under consideration. And analog bikes are not allowed on hiking trails and horse paths so e bikes aren't allowed either.

It seems it is coming much like automatic transmissions in cars did. There are die hard people that, row their own gears, but they are part of an ever growing minority.

As as far as exercise there is a fitness center every few blocks and you don’t have to dodge cars. And just because you have an e bike does mean you “have to” use the assist when you don’t need it. Let’s be real for a minute. All the people we see in the city riding hybrids at 10 to 12 mph around town are not getting their HR into zone 2. Most of the people riding on MUPs are not pushing a HR into real exercise zone.

Yes 3 to 5 days a week, 20 to 45 miles a day, 20 to 24 mph is exercise. Spin class exercise. Even jogger exercise.

Still most people buy buy a bike, discover it is hard to ride on a windy day and too much work on a long hill ant the bike ends up hanging in the garage and finally a garage sale. If the goal is exercise and sweat then nothing is going to change. Cycling will be for the ultra minority and even a smaller number of women. Been that way since my first Varsity and it is still that way now with Trek Edmonds SLR 9s. It doesn’t get easier or more popular.

There is one fast growing segment and that is because it is adding fun back into the equation. It isn’t like E bikes are replacing manual bikes. Manual bikes have just remained stagnate for so many years and something has to mix things up or the industry will die. Just my opinion. No reason to give up manual bikes just they may have reached their maximum influence in today’s world.

Here red is a perspective that might be worth looking at, or not.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.a11455822814
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Old 07-07-19, 10:17 PM
  #192  
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You got it right. It is impossible not to smile when riding an e-bike. It's a whole new level of fun.
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Old 07-07-19, 10:22 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155
a

No one has to talk to the Forrest service. It is already under consideration.
That's fine with me. I don't care about e-bikes on the trails or the roads as long as the riders aren't a menace. I don't care about any of the other stuff in your post because I don't have an e-bike. Maybe some day I will, who can say? I've had off road motorcycles and I loved them.

Thanks for being civil in an obviously emotional thread.
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Old 07-08-19, 06:33 AM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by big john
Thanks for being civil in an obviously emotional thread.
Unfortunately the thread has become dominated by one obvious troll and one persistent and repetitive illogic.
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Old 07-08-19, 09:42 AM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by radroad
. A bicycle without a motor "adds energy" through rotational inertia. .
I can hear my old physics professors turning in their graves. I'm done.

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Old 07-08-19, 12:53 PM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by big john
That's fine with me. I don't care about e-bikes on the trails or the roads as long as the riders aren't a menace. I don't care about any of the other stuff in your post because I don't have an e-bike. Maybe some day I will, who can say? I've had off road motorcycles and I loved them.

Thanks for being civil in an obviously emotional thread.
Might as well be civil it often accomplishes more. I have heard the same concerns in several things I have been involved in. Sailing had some similarities. Even how you navigated would bring heated debates in the clubhouse. Traditions are hard to change. I understand the resistance and cyclists have it as well. Jump into the steel versus Carbon Fiber or heaven forbid Aluminum.

No one is right for anyone but themselves. And everyone is right for how they feel about the subject. , for themselves.
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Old 07-08-19, 06:29 PM
  #197  
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OK, This is my LAST post on here, unless someone asks a specific Q directed at me... Before I get …

My "theory IS" already out there...

Walking for 10 Hrs; an average person goes 50Kms (100% human powered).

Riding a single speed for 10 Hrs and the same person gets 100Kms (100% human powered).

Riding a 27 speed for 10 Hrs and the same person gets 200KMs (100% human powered).

What IS the "difference"...??? It's still all 100% human powered, right.?

It;s efficiency... ??? at least I think so...

So, the "reason a person can go from 50Kms in a 10 Hr day walking, to 100Kms in a 10 Hr day is that the bicycle has wheels"... a mechanical assistant/advantage...
So, the "reason a person can go from 100Kms in a 10 Hr day to 200 KMs in a 10 Hr day on a 27 speed bicycle is the gearing on a bicycle"... a mechanical assistant/advantage...

We went from 50KM a 10 Hr day to 200Kms a 10Hr day, all human powered, (with some mechanical advantage's thrown in there)... WOW... NOT cheating the (IT takes a certain amount of effort to do a certain amount of work, physics 101) at all...

Now, we come to the infamous E-Bike... In my case I would go from...

50Kms walking, to 120Kms riding a single speed, to 220Kms riding a 27 speed... a 20Km (motor) advantage on either bicycle, a single speed or a 27 speed... What is actually more advantageous to have to go farther easier than walking...??? a single speed YES, or a 27 speed YES, on a bicycle that can move you 2X farther or 4X farther than walking, and yes another 20Kms on top of those numbers IS EVEN BETTER... BUT that 20KMs IS a MOTOR, Bad, very bad, but it's NOT bad to use a (mechanical advantage)...

"IF" I was to ride my E-Assist as a moped and use the throttle and NOT pedal, I would get 20Kms in TOTAL, on a charge, probably not make it up any hill more than 3% as 350 watts hub motor just doesn't do it by itself, as it doesn't go thru the gearing, it's a hub motor without gears, I suspect if it did have gears and/or did go through the gearing like a mid-drive it would make it up on it's own on pretty well any hill. But the way it is right now, an EU Legal hub motor set up, I GOT"S to pedal... BUT guess what, In the US Legal E-Bike setting 750 Watts, I would not need to pedal anywhere... and perhaps those are the E-Bikes that most who are against E-Bikes on here are thinking about...

Last edited by 350htrr; 07-12-19 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 07-08-19, 07:59 PM
  #198  
radroad
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There's certainly nothing morally wrong with using mechanical advantage. There's nothing wrong with using any form of technology as long as it is sustainable.

This entire thread is about a bunch of old guys getting triggered because they are afraid of change.
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Old 07-08-19, 10:35 PM
  #199  
MikeDD
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Why are there so many e-bike haters on this forum. An e-bike user cannot have a decent conversation or discussion. Why don't you live and let live. I don't bad mouth you. Get a life and get off the forum. I am.
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Old 07-09-19, 12:08 AM
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momsonherbike
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Originally Posted by MikeDD
Why are there so many e-bike haters on this forum. An e-bike user cannot have a decent conversation or discussion. Why don't you live and let live. I don't bad mouth you. Get a life and get off the forum. I am.
I'd like to know why there are haters, too. Fear of change? Fear of ridicule from the younger set?

Look, we're all getting older. Our bodies aren't 20 something anymore, and regardless of those 70 year olds who crow about their ability to still ride a century...well, they're in the minority. I know too many (men and especially women) who no longer ride because it isn't fun anymore. The older the body gets, unless kept in constant training, the more it resists. And training begins to be a grind, no longer fun anymore. So people just stop riding until fun re-enters the equation.

The ebike brings back the fun. It returns the "youth", it returns the smiles, and lets the older rider (like me) remember why riding became so much a part of our lives. Heck, I'd rather see a person grinning from ear to ear riding an ebike than standing on the sidelines, just watching (as happens at every single one of the big charity rides I've attended). I feel so bad for those who relegate themselves to being a spectator, for whatever reason, when there is a door open if they would just take that step and try something that will help them ride. I've talked to so many of these former riders, and almost everyone has been very receptive and intrigued enough to ask numerous questions to judge if an ebike will get them back out on the road. Seeing some of the older crowd rocking their ebikes and e-trikes with grins and enthusiam is such a wonderful thing to observe, and spreads the smiles all around.

We're all one big family with our bikes, energized by the pedals and wheels under us, the roads open to us, the crowd comradery, the private solo rides on our own. It's not the number of miles you ride - it's the experience and the joy you get out of riding itself. To each their own, and on this forum I'd rather be giving thumbs up and waves to fellow graying haired bike riders than being judgemental on their chosen bike.

Last edited by momsonherbike; 07-09-19 at 12:14 AM.
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