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I Said I Would Never EVER Buy An E-Bike...but

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I Said I Would Never EVER Buy An E-Bike...but

Old 07-20-21, 11:17 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by kaos joe View Post
Not for me.
But.......flame suit on.....it ain't cycling. Not really. And I can't help but be kind of turned off by the seeming enthusiasm for some in "embracing" physical limitations and infirmities. Not having to work to get into shape? Really? "Embrace the motor"? I'll embrace the motor with the same enthusiasm that someday I might have to embrace using a walker.
Just to be as absurd. I know that you will have a tough time getting into shape when you are 150 years old. For some people it happens a lot sooner.
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Old 07-20-21, 12:53 PM
  #77  
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Old 07-20-21, 05:20 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
It might not be something to look forward to. But I would much rather ride an e-bike than no bike at all. For some that's what it really comes down to. I saw some old guy pushing his bike up one of our local hills a few days ago. I would have thought an e-bike would have been more fun and closer to cycling than walking with a bike.
I absolutely agree. But I can't help but see that differently than "not motivated to get into shape".
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Old 07-20-21, 05:25 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
Just to be as absurd. I know that you will have a tough time getting into shape when you are 150 years old. For some people it happens a lot sooner.
I don't think anyone has said anything absurd. It's a gray area with fuzzy edges.

Look at the picture of me leaning on a cane, standing next to my pal Frank, age 71. That's a difficult place to get to. One of these years, I'm going to need an outfitter to get me in there on horseback if I want to see it again. So be it. But I won't be able to call it backpacking.
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Old 07-20-21, 05:34 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by kaos joe View Post
I absolutely agree. But I can't help but see that differently than "not motivated to get into shape".
My future self passed me today on an e-bike; his bell told me he's coming and with me (without a motor on the gravely Rail Trail) going at close to 30 km/h got passed. He was the only one who got past me today. Other e-bikers got to eat my dust.

Of course I don't have a dinky bell, that e-horn from Amazon (https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0778S7RR9/) will make the change over in 2025 when I turn 80.
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Old 07-20-21, 05:49 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
...I was on a fairly remote bike path in Wisconsin a few weeks ago with a mechanic friend of mine on a 400k, and we passed a couple on the side of the path with a flat tire on one of those 20" fat-tire step-through electric bikes. We would normally stop to help someone with a mechanical but blew right by because we were on the clock and pretty sure it wouldn't be a quick fix. Hope they made it home ok.
I've been thinking about THAT, too. Many things about e-bikes are inherently complicated, especially for cyclists who have ridden standard bicycles with standard-sized tires, etc all our lives. I'm doing a multi-day ride next week and will be doing about 50 miles a day. How do I plan how many miles my battery will take me if I use this amount of pedal assist vs. that amount of pedal assist? And where do I charge the battery if it dies somewhere on Rt. 1? Also, if I had one of those fat-tire bikes you're describing and got a tire puncture that couldn't be booted, would I be able to find a 20" X 4" tire or tube at Walmart? Probably not...
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Old 07-20-21, 06:51 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by kaos joe View Post
I absolutely agree. But I can't help but see that differently than "not motivated to get into shape".
Whoa, you are making an assumption that because I do not want a bicycle primarily for exercise that I am not motivated to get into shape. I am already in damned good shape for 66. I built my e bike for long distance adventure touring, its not a GD exercise machine.

"Embracing" physical limitations and infirmities is an absolute reality in nearly everyone at some point in their lives.. Nobody gets to 150 years old no matter how much they exercise. I build what I call e health bikes for people with physical limitations and infirmities that are past the point in life of expecting significant physical improvements without intervention.. I am much more concerned with improving the quality of the time they have remaining or getting them on a path to recovery than whipping them into shape. You admit to being older. You realize that you are only one diagnosis away from changing the way you think about exercise. A mindset from getting in shape to maybe riding at all.. Improving quality of life at that point is more important for longevity than vigorous exercise.

I realize that you were thinking of a couch potato slob that is plain out of shape but, think about how many people you knew that died younger than you and some of them worked hard to stay in shape.

I guess it just hits a raw nerve right now. I have a brother 63 years old who in March went from believing he was in top physical condition to being checked for Covid only to find out he has stage 4 NH lymphoma. He is now cancer free but can barely lift a spoon to feed himself. He is awaiting a bone marrow transplant and will be trying to mend starting in September. I am building him a step through cadence sensed e bike to feel like a human again.
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Old 07-20-21, 08:09 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
Whoa, you are making an assumption that because I do not want a bicycle primarily for exercise that I am not motivated to get into shape.
I agree - we have a 70+ member in our group, was a lifelong smoker until he almost died, then took up cycling. His lungs are permantly compromised, and as he's aged, he's slowed down to where his average speed is probably 8-9 mph. While we slow down for him, he also realizes that it's not much fun for us to constantly wait for him. For him, there's nothing about "getting in shape". It's all about continuing to enjoy life as much as possible, and for him, an e-bike has made that possible.
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Old 07-20-21, 09:12 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
Whoa, you are making an assumption that because I do not want a bicycle primarily for exercise that I am not motivated to get into shape......
KPREN,

I'm not making any assumptions and I'm sorry if I set you off. I'm not qualified to decide what is appropriate for you, your brother or anyone else, nor would I want to be. It is however my perception that many of the newly minted e-riders out there are motivated by a desire to do it the easy way. A few of the previous posters have said so. I just don't find I identify with that sort of attitude/outlook.

We had a very well known rider locally who I knew for decades, who also suffered from lymphoma and used an e-bike to still ride with the group. Nobody looked askance at that.

Improving the quality of life for people like your brother and our "Bicycle Bill" is a noble thing and not what I was referring to. Enjoy your rides and I do hope your brother does well. I'm a medical professional and I see lots of tough things every time I set foot into the hospital where I work. Again, I hope all goes well with you.
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Old 07-20-21, 09:20 PM
  #85  
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I have been riding since my retirement in 2009 averaging 2000+ mile a year on a Specialized Roubaix and a Litespeed Classic. I've found this last 2 years I just can't enjoy some of the riding routes I used to do because the hills take too much of my energy. This week I just got a Pinarello Dyodo ebike with e-assist. I won't ride it every time I go riding but when I have a few rides in particular that I've missed I'll bring it out. The other two bikes will get their due attention. I still enjoy pedaling a bike. By the way I'm 77 YO.
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Old 07-21-21, 05:25 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by kaos joe View Post
I absolutely agree. But I can't help but see that differently than "not motivated to get into shape".
I think you just have a very polarised view of cycling that excludes e-bikes. A more open-minded view is that they create even more cycling opportunities. As long as we are talking about pedal assist e-bikes rather than throttle operated electric "mopeds".
Now personally I prefer to ride normal pedal bikes, but I can see an e-bike in my future at some point and not necessarily health related. More "fun" related.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:00 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
...As long as we are talking about pedal assist e-bikes rather than throttle operated electric "mopeds"...
Pedal assist is just a poorly designed throttle. I differentiate e-bikes on the power of the motor. 250w seems like a reasonable amount to help people get up hills. More than that starts to look like an underpowered motorcycle to me.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:01 AM
  #88  
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Here is what I found out about the couch potato slobs. Not one of them to a man thought they would be where they are at in high school. I have not met one of them whom really likes that lot in life. Before they knew it, they were to far out of energy to motivate themselves to get into shape. The problem is when the body is sedentary the mind loses endorphins. A 100 yard walk can leave them out of breath and puffing.
They cannot just climb onto a regular bike and ride it. They cannot get on an off the bike easily and cannot get enough speed to gain enough balance before they are falling. The saddle position has to be to low for good pedaling and is very hard on their knees.
Why and e bike? A bicycle is one of the only pieces of equipment that establishes dynamic balance all on its own if you let it. Dynamic balance is the spice of life and what makes you feel alive on a bike. Most people learned to ride as a kid. A simple throttle gets them up to balancing speed and gives a real boost to the brain. An adrenaline rush just from the thrill of riding and acceleration. Something most of us take for granted. A cadence sensed bike does not require any initial input to ride it. So, what does this do for them as far as exercise? Simple, their legs are going through the motions and loosening up the knee and hip joints. For them, that can be an overwhelming thrill.. They are outside in the fresh air and actually riding a bike. Something that makes them feel young again. Soon they decrease the power and used their legs a bit and bring their heart rate up. Their self esteem soars and they want more of it.
Its not long before they can easily ride the bike, a active and losing weight and back into enjoying group company. Are they fit and robust. No, but they have muscle tone and a vastly improved aerobic ability.
It takes some talking to get them to try it but once they do, they are grateful. That is intervention, not motivation. I have a couple of extra e bikes at my disposal for just this purpose.

One thing is for certain. Initially you must set them up for success. No, we will try in in front of your house on the street with cars and other hazards. Go to a beautiful quiet fairly level bike path and provide a helmet, gloves. and a drink. For some I have had to start them in a wide open flat empty parking lot before they felt comfortable with a paved bike path. Wide tires is a big plus.

In short, I choose to act, not scorn. and I don't easily take no for an answer. I am very passionate and convincing. .
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Old 07-21-21, 06:31 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Pedal assist is just a poorly designed throttle. I differentiate e-bikes on the power of the motor. 250w seems like a reasonable amount to help people get up hills. More than that starts to look like an underpowered motorcycle to me.
I totally disagree with this. Good e-bikes provide a proportional (and programmable) assist level. So you have to pedal at a specific wattage to get a specific amount of power assistance. As a very simple example you might get a 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% power boost on top of whatever wattage you are producing from pedalling. Both our daughters ride e-bikes and we set them up with just enough proportional assistance so they can keep up with us on a ride.

I agree 250W is more than enough as a MAXIMUM assist level. It would be easily enough to turn me into a World Tour Pro beating climber! Thinking about this, it would be actually quite fun to climb Alpe d'Huez with a 100% proportional assist, turning my usual 250W average into a 500W average. Just to get a feel for what it's actually like for the top pros.

A throttle like on a motorbike is totally different as it requires no human power to activate. If you can't see that fundamental difference then you just don't get the e-bike concept.
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Old 07-21-21, 06:45 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I totally disagree with this. Good e-bikes provide a proportional (and programmable) assist level. So you have to pedal at a specific wattage to get a specific amount of power assistance. As a very simple example you might get a 25%, 50%, 75% or 100% power boost on top of whatever wattage you are producing from pedalling. Both our daughters ride e-bikes and we set them up with just enough proportional assistance so they can keep up with us on a ride.

I agree 250W is more than enough as a MAXIMUM assist level. It would be easily enough to turn me into a World Tour Pro beating climber! Thinking about this, it would be actually quite fun to climb Alpe d'Huez with a 100% proportional assist, turning my usual 250W average into a 500W average. Just to get a feel for what it's actually like for the top pros.

A throttle like on a motorbike is totally different as it requires no human power to activate. If you can't see that fundamental difference then you just don't get the e-bike concept.
The e-bikes I have ridden were pedal assist with different power settings, so all you had to do was turn the pedals and the bike would go as fast as the power setting. I could keep the pedals going with some trivial amount of power, say 10 watts, and control the speed with the power setting, which worked just like a throttle with click-stops. Sounds like yours work differently. Whatever, I still differentiate on the power of the motor not the power control mechanism. There are e-bikes out there putting out over 700 watts. That's not power assist to me no matter how it's controlled. It's just power.
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Old 07-21-21, 07:22 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
The e-bikes I have ridden were pedal assist with different power settings, so all you had to do was turn the pedals and the bike would go as fast as the power setting. I could keep the pedals going with some trivial amount of power, say 10 watts, and control the speed with the power setting, which worked just like a throttle with click-stops. Sounds like yours work differently. Whatever, I still differentiate on the power of the motor not the power control mechanism. There are e-bikes out there putting out over 700 watts. That's not power assist to me no matter how it's controlled. It's just power.
I'm only talking about proper e-bikes. Not this kind of junk. You should VERY MUCH differentiate between motor power and the power control mechanism as that is the fundamental difference between a proper e-bike with proportional power assist and this junk where the pedals are nothing but a switch.

Here is a simple description of how the Bosch e-bike system works. Note the graph showing the relationship between rider input and power assistance. You can also dial the overall level of assistance up and down to suit. I have ridden a few proper e-bikes and they feel quite natural to ride. You just ride faster for a given effort.

https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/news/tour
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Old 07-21-21, 07:37 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I'm only talking about proper e-bikes. Not this kind of junk. You should VERY MUCH differentiate between motor power and the power control mechanism as that is the fundamental difference between a proper e-bike with proportional power assist and this junk where the pedals are nothing but a switch.

Here is a simple description of how the Bosch e-bike system works. Note the graph showing the relationship between rider input and power assistance. You can also dial the overall level of assistance up and down to suit. I have ridden a few proper e-bikes and they feel quite natural to ride. You just ride faster for a given effort.
AFAIK both systems are called pedal assist, but I don't really care that much since I personally don't have a use for an e-bike. My main point was about the power not the control.
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Old 07-21-21, 07:57 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
The e-bikes I have ridden were pedal assist with different power settings, so all you had to do was turn the pedals and the bike would go as fast as the power setting. I could keep the pedals going with some trivial amount of power, say 10 watts, and control the speed with the power setting, which worked just like a throttle with click-stops. Sounds like yours work differently. Whatever, I still differentiate on the power of the motor not the power control mechanism. There are e-bikes out there putting out over 700 watts. That's not power assist to me no matter how it's controlled. It's just power.
your talking a cadence sensing hub drive. you need a good torque sensing mid drive. that will feel like a regular bike but just makes it easier. harder you peddle the more assist you get in each level of assist. you just choose how hard you want to work. Me I use the assist levels to get the speed I want. I get the same workout on any assist level I just go faster. on my commuter I try to keep my heart rate in the 130 range. I have power meters on both bikes (built in on a bosch mid drive) so I know how much effort I am doing. I also know how many watts per mile the motor is using. when we are cruising on our tandem at about 18.5mph right at the cutoff point of the motor we use about 4 watts per mile. Hub drives with a cadence sensor I think keep exercise from happening.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:03 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
your talking a cadence sensing hub drive. you need a good torque sensing mid drive. that will feel like a regular bike but just makes it easier. harder you peddle the more assist you get in each level of assist. you just choose how hard you want to work. Me I use the assist levels to get the speed I want. I get the same workout on any assist level I just go faster. on my commuter I try to keep my heart rate in the 130 range. I have power meters on both bikes (built in on a bosch mid drive) so I know how much effort I am doing. I also know how many watts per mile the motor is using. when we are cruising on our tandem at about 18.5mph right at the cutoff point of the motor we use about 4 watts per mile. Hub drives with a cadence sensor I think keep exercise from happening.
Agree that torque sensing sounds like a better system. The bikes I rode were rentals.
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Old 07-21-21, 08:12 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Agree that torque sensing sounds like a better system. The bikes I rode were rentals.
ya my firs e bike test drive was a hub drive. I tried to spin at my usual 80 rpm and it just kept going faster till I hit the speed limit of that assist level. hopped on a mid drive and never looked back. at the time. was really sick so all I could do is spin maybe 80 watts out of me and I had to use full assist to go 20 mph Now I can do 22 on then ext to lowest level and I went from about 20 miles on one charge to around 40. we mountain bike on our tandem and the mid drive is great. I can change assist levels as the land changes and to have to shift as much. we got 65 miles of riding on the tandem last Saturday and burned about 1600 calories.
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Old 07-21-21, 10:43 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
AFAIK both systems are called pedal assist, but I don't really care that much since I personally don't have a use for an e-bike. My main point was about the power not the control.
Power IS power added, and a motor IS a motor, but saying/not caring how it's applied/controlled because it makes no difference is not correct...

A pressure sensing system adds a certain % of power assistance on top of what the person is putting into the pedaling effort...

A cadence sensor system just adds a pre-determined amount of power, no matter what the pedaling effort is, as long as the pedal is rotating irrelevant to how much pressure is actually applied...
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Old 07-21-21, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Power IS power added, and a motor IS a motor, but saying/not caring how it's applied/controlled because it makes no difference is not correct...

A pressure sensing system adds a certain % of power assistance on top of what the person is putting into the pedaling effort...

A cadence sensor system just adds a pre-determined amount of power, no matter what the pedaling effort is, as long as the pedal is rotating irrelevant to how much pressure is actually applied...
I understand the difference between a throttle, cadence sensor and torque sensor and still don't care. My only point was that the differentiation between e-bike and motorcycle should be the amount of power available, not the controller. I have no idea what the breakdown is on e-bike controllers, but I seriously doubt that the majority have torque sensors. I have rented e-bikes several times and they all had cadence sensors.
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Old 07-21-21, 11:46 AM
  #98  
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OK, fine, I admit to being a bit E-curious. I’m pushing 69. Is it so wrong?

I was at the local Trek dealership yesterday and took a look. An E-bike with 3” tires would rule the Earth in my neck of the woods.

$2700? Ouch. I still work part time but dayam that’s a lot of money.

One approach: buy one for my wife. She won’t ride it more that 2-3 times and then she’ll complain about everything wrong with it. Someone in the family would have to ride it.
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Old 07-21-21, 12:37 PM
  #99  
PeteHski
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
I understand the difference between a throttle, cadence sensor and torque sensor and still don't care. My only point was that the differentiation between e-bike and motorcycle should be the amount of power available, not the controller. I have no idea what the breakdown is on e-bike controllers, but I seriously doubt that the majority have torque sensors. I have rented e-bikes several times and they all had cadence sensors.
Every e-bike I have seen has a torque sensor and they are limited to a maximum 250W here in the UK. They also have to cut out above 15.5 mph. Throttles are illegal too, although they can have a walking assist up to 6 mph. They are nothing remotely like motorbikes.

Refusing to differentiate between a dumb throttle and a programmable % pedal assist shows that you simply donít get the concept of a proper e-bike vs an electric motorbike.

Last edited by PeteHski; 07-21-21 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 07-21-21, 01:17 PM
  #100  
kingston 
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Every e-bike I have seen has a torque sensor and they are limited to a maximum 250W here in the UK. They also have to cut out above 15.5 mph. Throttles are illegal too, although they can have a walking assist up to 6 mph. They are nothing remotely like motorbikes.
None of those things are true in the US. We may have laws but nobody knows what they are so people ride pretty much whatever they want and call it an e-bike. The 15kw Swind EB-01 is made in the UK, so there are high-powered e-bikes in your country too.

Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Refusing to differentiate between a dumb throttle and a programmable % pedal assist shows that you simply donít get the concept of a proper e-bike vs an electric motorbike.
I'm not sure why you keep repeating that I don't understand simple concepts that I clearly understand. I just don't agree with you that the power control matters for calling something an e-bike or not when we are comparing 250w vs. 15kw motors.
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