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You can everything right, and still lose your life

Old 07-24-21, 06:56 AM
  #26  
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I am not trying to minimize the risk of cycling, both on and off road, but, the reality is that no matter what one is doing, whether doing it 100% right or not, there is risk of being badly injured or killed. We can only control what is in our control, and I have come to believe that is not a whole lot. It's dangerous getting out of bed in the morning. I love riding bikes, particularly road cycling. I accept the risk because of that. Not doing it is not a good option for me. I do what I can to minimize the risk. What's worse, getting killed doing something you love to do, or getting killed doing something you dislike doing? I guess it really does not matter, but I think given an option, I prefer going out with a smile on my face. At the end of a ride, cycling ALWAYS makes me smile.
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Old 07-24-21, 10:50 AM
  #27  
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You can buy all the right gadgets and gizmos and still lose your life.
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Old 07-24-21, 11:02 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
You can buy all the right gadgets and gizmos and still lose your life.
Of course you can, but you can stack the odds more in your favour if you choose to. A Garmin Varia definitely does that. Iíve noticed their popularity has risen dramatically in the last year and for good reason. It has a very effective rear flashing light too.
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Old 07-24-21, 11:39 AM
  #29  
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just a play on the title of thread.

life has few guarantees (death&taxes). For the rest you are at the roulette wheel of living.
Right clothing, flashing lights, cameras, collision electronics, auto text after crash, etc.
The distracted driver sees nothing outside their vehicle.
"You can do everything right and still lose your life"

Last edited by Wildwood; 07-24-21 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 07-24-21, 12:47 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
Right clothing, flashing lights, cameras, collision electronics, auto text after crash, etc.
The distracted driver sees nothing outside their vehicle.
What about all the slightly less distracted drivers who might just be alerted by a flashing light? Being aware of an approaching vehicle, even if they donít see you is also potentially life saving. Iíve had vehicles approach me at more than twice the speed limit and pulled off the road thanks to the Varia warning. Not saying they would have hit me, but Iím not taking that kind of chance with a speeding motorist.

Life may be a lottery, but you can weight the dice in your favour if you so choose.
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Old 07-24-21, 02:07 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
just a play on the title of thread.
​​​​​​
You can everything right, and still lose your life
How to avoid botulism when home canning
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Old 07-24-21, 02:55 PM
  #32  
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I thought home caning went out a century ago. Except in Indonesia and Malaysia.
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Old 07-24-21, 03:02 PM
  #33  
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Counting on weighting the dice in a game of random chance sounds a fool's wish. Or a technology addiction of faith.

But having worked at Intel Corp in the 70's, I'm a believer in technology. Buy on!
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Old 07-24-21, 04:32 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
It does actually give you a good clue. It alerts you more aggressively if the approaching vehicle doesnít slow down or is closing very fast. Whenever I get that alert I immediately look over my shoulder and prepare to pull off the road if necessary. There is enough time as the warning is early. Usually you can see by the changing speed of the approaching ďdotĒ whether or not the driver has at least seen you in the road.

It gives you a LOT more awareness of what is travelling approx 10 seconds behind you and how fast it is approaching.
In my area most of the main roads have a 50 mph speed limit. Taking smaller roads means not having a bike lane and/or crossing more intersections. If someone was driving at about that speed would the Varia detect that as a high speed approach? I ask because if almost every car triggers a warning, my brain would most likely learn to ignore that. Also, I don't think speeding is the issue; the issue is distracted driving.
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Old 07-24-21, 04:47 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
Counting on weighting the dice in a game of random chance sounds a fool's wish. Or a technology addiction of faith.

But having worked at Intel Corp in the 70's, I'm a believer in technology. Buy on!
No, itís definitely not that. But feel free to talk it down. Itís your ass, not mine
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Old 07-24-21, 05:12 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by SoSmellyAir View Post
In my area most of the main roads have a 50 mph speed limit. Taking smaller roads means not having a bike lane and/or crossing more intersections. If someone was driving at about that speed would the Varia detect that as a high speed approach? I ask because if almost every car triggers a warning, my brain would most likely learn to ignore that. Also, I don't think speeding is the issue; the issue is distracted driving.
Thatís a good point. Most roads I ride on have a 60 mph limit, but are quite narrow with lots of bends. So normally a vehicle approaching from behind would need to slow down before pulling out to pass me. If they donít slow down then I normally get the more aggressive warning. But Iím not sure what the speed criteria actually is for the higher warning level. If you are riding on busy roads with a lot of constant traffic then it would probably not be worth having a Varia. Even if they donít trigger the full warning, every single vehicle that passes you will still make it beep. So if itís just a constant stream of traffic then there isnít much point.

Itís value is when you are riding in very light rural traffic. Typically Iím being passed maybe only once or twice in a 5 min period so Iím fully aware of any vehicle approaching and itís relative speed. The radar bleeps when it first picks up a vehicle and then I can monitor its ďdotĒ on approach and confirm it is actually slowing down for me. But if the dot is racing toward me I will get the red alert warning and thatís when I really do pay serious attention to what is bearing down on me! If it looks like an idiot and not moving over I will unclip and pull off the road until it passes, but thatís thankfully a very rare situation. Usually itís more a case of just adjusting my line and making sure I donít swerve outward just as a vehicle is about to pass. I also never try to reach for my bottle or snacks when there is a vehicle on approach. Simple stuff like that which can make all the difference.

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Old 07-24-21, 06:28 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Thatís a good point. Most roads I ride on have a 60 mph limit, but are quite narrow with lots of bends. So normally a vehicle approaching from behind would need to slow down before pulling out to pass me. If they donít slow down then I normally get the more aggressive warning. But Iím not sure what the speed criteria actually is for the higher warning level. If you are riding on busy roads with a lot of constant traffic then it would probably not be worth having a Varia. Even if they donít trigger the full warning, every single vehicle that passes you will still make it beep. So if itís just a constant stream of traffic then there isnít much point.

Itís value is when you are riding in very light rural traffic. Typically Iím being passed maybe only once or twice in a 5 min period so Iím fully aware of any vehicle approaching and itís relative speed. The radar bleeps when it first picks up a vehicle and then I can monitor its ďdotĒ on approach and confirm it is actually slowing down for me. But if the dot is racing toward me I will get the red alert warning and thatís when I really do pay serious attention to what is bearing down on me! If it looks like an idiot and not moving over I will unclip and pull off the road until it passes, but thatís thankfully a very rare situation. Usually itís more a case of just adjusting my line and making sure I donít swerve outward just as a vehicle is about to pass. I also never try to reach for my bottle or snacks when there is a vehicle on approach. Simple stuff like that which can make all the difference.
Thanks PeteHski for the input. I am in the suburbs, so I guess our riding environment are nothing alike other than the higher than average speed limit.
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Old 07-24-21, 06:37 PM
  #38  
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Iíve had my Varia for almost a year now and it is an awesome situational awareness tool. Itís not perfect, there are circumstances when it wonít alert when a car is behind me specifically when itís matching my speed. If it tells me a car is behind me than a car is behind me. If it doesnít show a car I instinctively know to check when necessary, sometimes I see a car slowly waiting for the moment to pass and undetected by my Varia.
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Old 07-24-21, 07:59 PM
  #39  
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The other big advantage of the radar unit on busy roads is it shows not only if the lane is clear to take (to execute left hand turns) but how far apart the vehicles are spaced. I've learned what spacing is sufficient to move into the row of cars and signal an upcoming turn.
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Old 07-24-21, 09:08 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Charliekeet View Post
Very sad, and enraging, actually.
The displayed link https://youtu.be/XrTbAPq2Xu8 you have there is for the story on YouTube - but the URL when you click it you have going to a FoxNews story about it, and brother, let me just say that the comments below that story are reprehensible.
I don't read comments under stories/videos about cyclists and pedestrians being killed by negligent drivers. It would kill my last shred of hope for humanity.

I do occasionally see similarly hostile and threatening comments under local news on social media. It may be only 1% of drivers who come across as borderline psychopaths just itching for an excuse to use their vehicles to murder cyclists and pedestrians. But that's still thousands of ticking time bombs behind the wheels throughout our city. If people posted similar threats and schadenfreude in other contexts -- crime news, any other local issues -- they'd be warned, suspended or banned from the Facebook groups or FB altogether. But FB mods and admins have no problems with anti-social people posting threats against cyclists and pedestrians.

The worst part is that some of them are also cyclists. Riding a bike doesn't exempt people from anti-social psychopathy.

This week Phil Gaimon posted a rant on FB about recent truck and SUV designs with huge, blocky, squared off hoods and fenders that block the view of people and objects below the driver's sightlines. He was just echoing warnings from automotive and safety industry pundits. Some pundits are calling for a return to sloping hoods on big trucks, vans and SUVs, to improve sightlines.

Some guy posted multiple trolling responses to other commenters -- calling them cowards, or unAmerican for complaining about negligent drivers, or... it wasn't really clear what his point was. Between the odd phrasing and misspellings it seemed like drunk posting, or worse. Curious, I glanced at his FB page. He's a serious cyclist, and promoting his new business as an insurance broker. But the guy seems to have a serious disconnect not only about empathy for other cyclists, but a total lack of regard for his personal and business reputation.

Again, that's a minority of the self-identifying cyclist population. But, still, if only 1% of cyclists share his irreconcilable views, that's a heckuva lotta utterly clueless cyclists who think they're immune to negligent drivers.
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Old 07-24-21, 09:34 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
You can buy all the right gadgets and gizmos and still lose your life.
True. Also true of many, many other things, including driving, walking on the sidewalk, etc. In the early days of the COVID pandemic, a lot of people who were doing everything right still caught it and died. All you can do is try your best. And always kiss your spouse and kids when you leave, as if you'll be back in a couple hours, or never.
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Old 07-24-21, 09:47 PM
  #42  
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I got a Varia a few months back, and I really like it. The times when it's most useful:
  • Passing slower cyclists. I can adjust my speed so it will be clear when I'm ready to go around them. I ALWAYS look but I don't have to keep looking. If it's not going to open up for a while, I can slow down and sit in until it does.
  • Descents. I don't want to keep looking back so knowing there's someone behind me, and how close allows me to plan ahead to let them pass.
  • Getting into the left lane to turn.
  • Narrow, shoulderless roads with little, but not no traffic.
It lets me know someone's coming LONG before I'd hear them. Heck, sometimes it even alerts me to riders coming up behind me!
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Old 07-24-21, 09:51 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
That occurred to me as well.
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Old 07-24-21, 10:58 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I don't read comments under stories/videos about cyclists and pedestrians being killed by negligent drivers. It would kill my last shred of hope for humanity.

I do occasionally see similarly hostile and threatening comments under local news on social media. It may be only 1% of drivers who come across as borderline psychopaths just itching for an excuse to use their vehicles to murder cyclists and pedestrians. But that's still thousands of ticking time bombs behind the wheels throughout our city. If people posted similar threats and schadenfreude in other contexts -- crime news, any other local issues -- they'd be warned, suspended or banned from the Facebook groups or FB altogether. But FB mods and admins have no problems with anti-social people posting threats against cyclists and pedestrians.

The worst part is that some of them are also cyclists. Riding a bike doesn't exempt people from anti-social psychopathy.

This week Phil Gaimon posted a rant on FB about recent truck and SUV designs with huge, blocky, squared off hoods and fenders that block the view of people and objects below the driver's sightlines. He was just echoing warnings from automotive and safety industry pundits. Some pundits are calling for a return to sloping hoods on big trucks, vans and SUVs, to improve sightlines.

Some guy posted multiple trolling responses to other commenters -- calling them cowards, or unAmerican for complaining about negligent drivers, or... it wasn't really clear what his point was. Between the odd phrasing and misspellings it seemed like drunk posting, or worse. Curious, I glanced at his FB page. He's a serious cyclist, and promoting his new business as an insurance broker. But the guy seems to have a serious disconnect not only about empathy for other cyclists, but a total lack of regard for his personal and business reputation.

Again, that's a minority of the self-identifying cyclist population. But, still, if only 1% of cyclists share his irreconcilable views, that's a heckuva lotta utterly clueless cyclists who think they're immune to negligent drivers.
Not surprised. On the other subject, I agree that sight lines are worse (and have been for a long, long time) in modern vehicles, and thatís due not just to blocky hoods on trucks but also vehicles being super-sized and higher up in general. The majority of buyers would rather buy a big, substantial-feeling vehicle with poor visibility than a slighter, lighter, lower vehicle with good visibility. It sucks.

Ironically, the higher hood and cowl lines on even normal-sized cars (not just trucks) is partly due to pedestrian safety standards!

It was determined that having additional empty space for deflection between the metal in the hood/front edge of the car and the harder engine block is helpful if a ped. is hit and rolls or flies up and lands down on the hood.
Hence no low, aero wedge-shaped front ends on regular cars for like the last 15 years.
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Old 07-25-21, 01:56 AM
  #45  
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I know several local county commissioners and elected state officials that view road-biking as a public nuisance at least in several areas.
Their argument is that (X) number of cyclists have been involved in accidents with vehicles, and it would be in the public's best interest to limit and prohibit bicycle traffic on those roads. Their argument is that Mopeds are prohibited from travelling on those roads, and the typical cyclist cannot maintain the 30mph pace of a Moped, and that bicycle riders have no business riding roads with such a high posted speed limit, and even faster average actual vehicle traffic flow speed rate. They contend that you cannot expect "perfect" attention and "perfect" driving and accidents will happen and while such an accident between motor vehicles likely results in 73% + of simply minor accidents where all passengers survive and without very serious injuries, but they are also quick to point out that a 175 pound human on a 30 pound bicycle is no match for a 3000 pound automobile and carnage results as there is a 90% + chance that the cyclist will be fatally injured or be critically injured and perhaps survive with a life-changing serious disabilty. Their assertion is not wrong. They have years of traffic accident data on those roads as well as the frequency of time of day, time of year, etc. They also cite the fact that thousands of motor vehicles on average travel those roadways over any eight hour period, yet typically you never have as much as fifty cyclists during any eight hour stretch, unless its a group ride pack, out for a ride on that particular day. Still, they cite the number of cyclists and motor vehicle accidents and further state that those people did not need to be riding on that road, as they should know better than that, those people aren't commuters that are relying on the bicycle as their sole means of transportation, they are just hobby enthusiasts without common sense to know any better, although they the cyclists tend to be on average, educated with adequate disposable income to own such road bikes, they display a thorough lack of common sense in choosing to ride on these particular highly traveled high speed roadways.

I am simply saying that is the prevailing attitude towards mixing cycling with automobile traffic on certain specific roadways.
Realistically, I do not believe that you can change that prevailing attitude.
The general prevailing attitude is something like, well motor-cycle riders assume a greater risk of death by choosing to drive a 2 wheel or 3 wheeled motorcycle which offers the rider essentially zero crash protection in the event of an accident, and bicycle riders have absolutely no business mixing with motor vehicle traffic on those particular roadways. They cannot keep pace with traffic flow. They do not have uniform side marker, and lighting requirements, or uniform rear view mirror requirements, or uniform height and reflective material, visibilty requirements and uniform requirements of light placement, etc.
That is simply what you will encounter from many state and local lawmakers that do not share the passion and enthusiasm for cycling on busy roadways.
Overwhelmingly, the majority of the general public that possesses a valid drivers license probably feels the same way with the attitude that those biking people need to get the hell off of certain roadways.
This is why that such tragedies are always simply routinely referred to as accidents. There is it seems an implied aspect of assumed risk and contributory negligence for choosing to ride said roadway and battle the cars. I know that is beyond callous and brutally harsh but it seems to reflect the current prevailing attitude.
That is not likely to change, as folks largely view it as certain roadways are for getting motor vehicles speedily from point A to point B and all points in between, and mopeds and bicycles do not belong there and anyone choosing to pilot said bicycle or moped there assumes the risk that no normal sane person would.

Perhaps, the best way is to totally segregate automobile and bicycle traffic with cyclists far from the roadways on specific bike paths for certain about town, through the city connectors etc, but this poses other problems such as taxpayer cost, engineering-planning and decades from conception to actually becoming a reality. In most places this is not realistic and just totally impossible. Often, many smaller communities just don't have the funds & budget to prioritize anything bicycle related.
I don't have any new answers on what to do or how to change public perception. My own opinion is that there are certain areas among high traffic roadways and intersections that just isn't worth the risk. The general public basically shares that view.

Last edited by Vintage Schwinn; 07-25-21 at 02:06 AM.
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Old 07-25-21, 05:35 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Ghazmh View Post
Iíve had my Varia for almost a year now and it is an awesome situational awareness tool. Itís not perfect, there are circumstances when it wonít alert when a car is behind me specifically when itís matching my speed. If it tells me a car is behind me than a car is behind me. If it doesnít show a car I instinctively know to check when necessary, sometimes I see a car slowly waiting for the moment to pass and undetected by my Varia.
Interesting that you donít get alerts when a car is matching your speed. Mine definitely does alert as vehicles often have to follow me on narrow roads while waiting for a passing opportunity. Have you checked for firmware updates? Mine is the 515 model and Iím using a Garmin Edge 530 head unit. I wonder if your unit is set to ďpelotonĒ mode as I think that might stop it from alerting you to riders following along in your group - or in your case a car matching your speed
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Old 07-25-21, 06:58 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by drlogik View Post
The Garmin Varia radar unit, how well does it recognize cars behind and either to the right or left of you?
The radar beam width is 40 degrees. It provides radar coverage for typical bends in the road.

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Old 07-25-21, 08:10 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Vintage Schwinn View Post
I know several local county commissioners and elected state officials that view road-biking as a public nuisance at least in several areas.
Their argument is that (X) number of cyclists have been involved in accidents with vehicles, and it would be in the public's best interest to limit and prohibit bicycle traffic on those roads. Their argument is that Mopeds are prohibited from travelling on those roads, and the typical cyclist cannot maintain the 30mph pace of a Moped, and that bicycle riders have no business riding roads with such a high posted speed limit, and even faster average actual vehicle traffic flow speed rate. They contend that you cannot expect "perfect" attention and "perfect" driving and accidents will happen and while such an accident between motor vehicles likely results in 73% + of simply minor accidents where all passengers survive and without very serious injuries, but they are also quick to point out that a 175 pound human on a 30 pound bicycle is no match for a 3000 pound automobile and carnage results as there is a 90% + chance that the cyclist will be fatally injured or be critically injured and perhaps survive with a life-changing serious disabilty. Their assertion is not wrong. They have years of traffic accident data on those roads as well as the frequency of time of day, time of year, etc. They also cite the fact that thousands of motor vehicles on average travel those roadways over any eight hour period, yet typically you never have as much as fifty cyclists during any eight hour stretch, unless its a group ride pack, out for a ride on that particular day. Still, they cite the number of cyclists and motor vehicle accidents and further state that those people did not need to be riding on that road, as they should know better than that, those people aren't commuters that are relying on the bicycle as their sole means of transportation, they are just hobby enthusiasts without common sense to know any better, although they the cyclists tend to be on average, educated with adequate disposable income to own such road bikes, they display a thorough lack of common sense in choosing to ride on these particular highly traveled high speed roadways.

I am simply saying that is the prevailing attitude towards mixing cycling with automobile traffic on certain specific roadways.
Realistically, I do not believe that you can change that prevailing attitude.
The general prevailing attitude is something like, well motor-cycle riders assume a greater risk of death by choosing to drive a 2 wheel or 3 wheeled motorcycle which offers the rider essentially zero crash protection in the event of an accident, and bicycle riders have absolutely no business mixing with motor vehicle traffic on those particular roadways. They cannot keep pace with traffic flow. They do not have uniform side marker, and lighting requirements, or uniform rear view mirror requirements, or uniform height and reflective material, visibilty requirements and uniform requirements of light placement, etc.
That is simply what you will encounter from many state and local lawmakers that do not share the passion and enthusiasm for cycling on busy roadways.
Overwhelmingly, the majority of the general public that possesses a valid drivers license probably feels the same way with the attitude that those biking people need to get the hell off of certain roadways.
This is why that such tragedies are always simply routinely referred to as accidents. There is it seems an implied aspect of assumed risk and contributory negligence for choosing to ride said roadway and battle the cars. I know that is beyond callous and brutally harsh but it seems to reflect the current prevailing attitude.
That is not likely to change, as folks largely view it as certain roadways are for getting motor vehicles speedily from point A to point B and all points in between, and mopeds and bicycles do not belong there and anyone choosing to pilot said bicycle or moped there assumes the risk that no normal sane person would.

Perhaps, the best way is to totally segregate automobile and bicycle traffic with cyclists far from the roadways on specific bike paths for certain about town, through the city connectors etc, but this poses other problems such as taxpayer cost, engineering-planning and decades from conception to actually becoming a reality. In most places this is not realistic and just totally impossible. Often, many smaller communities just don't have the funds & budget to prioritize anything bicycle related.
I don't have any new answers on what to do or how to change public perception. My own opinion is that there are certain areas among high traffic roadways and intersections that just isn't worth the risk. The general public basically shares that view.
I can sum it up quickly. I was hit from the rear by a pickup truck and nicely bruised and battered with a crushed sitting bone. Went to arbitration. Arbitrator: "You were bicycle riding on a 50mph roadway**********?" Results: Driver not at fault.
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Old 07-25-21, 08:20 AM
  #49  
PeteHski
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Originally Posted by kahn View Post
I can sum it up quickly. I was hit from the rear by a pickup truck and nicely bruised and battered with a crushed sitting bone. Went to arbitration. Arbitrator: "You were bicycle riding on a 50mph roadway**********?" Results: Driver not at fault.
After reading these threads I donít think I would ever consider riding on US roads. The mindset seems completely incompatible. But looks like you have some great off-road trails. Thatís where I would be riding on that side of the pond.
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Old 07-25-21, 08:24 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Interesting that you donít get alerts when a car is matching your speed. Mine definitely does alert as vehicles often have to follow me on narrow roads while waiting for a passing opportunity. Have you checked for firmware updates? Mine is the 515 model and Iím using a Garmin Edge 530 head unit. I wonder if your unit is set to ďpelotonĒ mode as I think that might stop it from alerting you to riders following along in your group - or in your case a car matching your speed
Good question, I have the 515 as well and havenít considered or checked the firmware since Iíve had it. I will check for an update before my next ride. I use it with an Edge 130, an Edge touring, and a few times with my old Edge 520. I still love it and have come to appreciate the value it has provided.
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