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Calories and cycling

Old 07-28-21, 06:49 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Table is wrong. 3.4 W/Kg Cat 3 would get shelled in 2 msec
Okay
How about Cycling Analytics?
"Serious riders"
50% of their users have power of 272 or less.
Again, I said "average" rider.
Users of Cycling Analytics I'd bet are stronger.
Readers of this forum I'd bet are closer to average than the 50th percentile Cycling Analytics user.
You are a strong rider
I stand by my original post. The average reader here has ftp's nowhere near yours.
https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare

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Old 07-28-21, 07:45 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Table is wrong. 3.4 W/Kg Cat 3 would get shelled in 2 msec
Um, no.
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Old 07-28-21, 12:05 PM
  #128  
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Map My Ride might help you figure calorie burn out

MapMyRide has a calorie calculator built into it. Don't know if it is accurate but it does take into account changes in elevation and I think your weight as well. I suspect it is as good anything. For my situations riding in mildly hilly terrain I have found about 50 to 70 calories per mile.
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Old 07-29-21, 06:20 AM
  #129  
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to highlight the discrepancy between calorie estimates and using a power meter, the past 3 rides I've done:

7/28 - Strava calorie estimate: 806, kj: 719 (11% difference)
7/27 - Strava calorie estimate:1797, kj: 1661 (8% difference)
7/26 - Strava calorie estimate: 607. kj: 558 (8% difference)
7/24: Strava calorie estimate: 837, kj: 765 (9% difference)

If you're using HR based estimates or whatever, probably safe to assume near 10% error in the estimate.
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Old 07-29-21, 06:38 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by hubcyclist View Post
to highlight the discrepancy between calorie estimates and using a power meter, the past 3 rides I've done:

7/28 - Strava calorie estimate: 806, kj: 719 (11% difference)
7/27 - Strava calorie estimate:1797, kj: 1661 (8% difference)
7/26 - Strava calorie estimate: 607. kj: 558 (8% difference)
7/24: Strava calorie estimate: 837, kj: 765 (9% difference)

If you're using HR based estimates or whatever, probably safe to assume near 10% error in the estimate.
Have you got an accurate body weight and bike weight/type in Strava? Are you comparing kJ vs Calories above? - because they are not the same thing, even though the numbers are quite close.
If you have a power meter, Strava will be using that to calculate both your calories (along with human efficiency coefficient) and total work done in kJ. Without a power meter it has to estimate your power from your route, weight and type of bike etc.
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Old 07-29-21, 07:29 AM
  #131  
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Yup, Strava is taking the kj info from the power meter into account for their calorie estimates; on rides without a PM, Strava's power and calorie estimates can be way, way off.
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Old 07-29-21, 09:49 AM
  #132  
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If losing weight is a goal calories are important but quality and time are just as important as amount. Anyone interested can look into intermittent fasting. Clinical studies have been done where amount of calories were were exact between 2 groups. The difference being amount of time between consuming. The group who consumed calories over several meals gained weight and the one meal group lost weight. Insulin release is the driving factor.
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Old 07-29-21, 10:03 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
If losing weight is a goal calories are important but quality and time are just as important as amount. Anyone interested can look into intermittent fasting. Clinical studies have been done where amount of calories were were exact between 2 groups. The difference being amount of time between consuming. The group who consumed calories over several meals gained weight and the one meal group lost weight. Insulin release is the driving factor.
You are right. Calories burned are not the same as the calories at the pedal. Metabolism and efficiency will play a part. Getting this granular on calorie burn is interesting but pretty academic IMO.
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Old 07-29-21, 10:10 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
Don't take any calories on your ride. Just water or zero calorie drinks. If your goal is weight loss, you don't need to eat while exercising. Also, exercise on an empty stomach. If you ride in the morning, don't eat breakfast. Don't eat immediately after a ride either. Let your body burn calories that are already there. Intermittent fasting works for a lot of people. Eating 4-5 smaller meals is generally better than eating 3 big meals. Skipping meals is good also. Our bodies have kind of been programmed to eat in the morning, around noon, and then at night. It won't kill you to skip a meal or two. These are just some easy techniques to limit eating that have worked for me in the past. Oh, and as you get older, weight loss gets more difficult.
You and I, we think alike.
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Old 07-29-21, 10:34 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Awesomeguy View Post
when you were cutting calories did you feel hungry and weak? I’ll give you an example if I cut 200 calories by switching to egg whites for breakfast I get so tired and weak, mind you I eat 3 meals a day and my breakfast is 750 calories , my largest meal (100g oatmeal, 4 whole eggs and banana ), and I have 1 snack between bf and lunch and lunch and dinner

I'm wondering if your issue isn't what the calories are as opposed to the quantity. I think people tend to vary somewhat on what makes them feel full and/or energetic. For me, that breakfast sounds too carb-heavy, and I think I would get much hungrier mid-morning and possibly a bit shaky on it. My breakfast is about half as many calories as yours, but very low carb outside of the orange I eat every morning. I eat an apple about two hours later, and that gets me to lunch without feeling tired. Also, just under a quart of coffee. I have no idea whether any of that would work for you, but maybe experiment with keeping the calories constant for breakfast, but trying some different foods.

It might not be coincidence that it's the fat in the yolk you're cutting out that makes you feel weak, because it makes the proportion of carbs to other macronutrients even higher.
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Old 07-29-21, 10:34 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
Don't take any calories on your ride. Just water or zero calorie drinks. If your goal is weight loss, you don't need to eat while exercising. Also, exercise on an empty stomach. If you ride in the morning, don't eat breakfast. Don't eat immediately after a ride either. Let your body burn calories that are already there. Intermittent fasting works for a lot of people. Eating 4-5 smaller meals is generally better than eating 3 big meals. Skipping meals is good also. Our bodies have kind of been programmed to eat in the morning, around noon, and then at night. It won't kill you to skip a meal or two. These are just some easy techniques to limit eating that have worked for me in the past. Oh, and as you get older, weight loss gets more difficult.
I'm not an expert on this but my understanding is that your body is going to burn readily available energy sources when you spike your activity...like biking. It WILL pull calories from protein instead of fat because it needs those calories rapidly. If you have not eaten anything then you have no available protein source. except your muscles. Bottom line is you are going to burn muscle mass instead of fat. I might be wrong but I would research further before skipping eating and going riding.
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Old 07-29-21, 10:55 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by mwaldin View Post
I'm not an expert on this but my understanding is that your body is going to burn readily available energy sources when you spike your activity...like biking. It WILL pull calories from protein instead of fat because it needs those calories rapidly. If you have not eaten anything then you have no available protein source. except your muscles. Bottom line is you are going to burn muscle mass instead of fat. I might be wrong but I would research further before skipping eating and going riding.
You won't burn muscle rather than fat by going a while without calories. I would guess that even 36 hours wouldn't cause any muscle loss unless someone was operating at 2% body fat. If our bodies burned muscle before fat the human race would have died out long ago.. How much or how well you process fat for energy depends on how well you are adapted to burning fat as an energy source. A high carb consumer will have more trouble than someone who has adapted to fat burning through extended periods of low carb eating, and, or intermittent fasting.

The body's cells actually change over time to use fat as a source of energy. It won't happen though if the body has a source of carbs to use. Carbs cause insulin release, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but constant exposure to insulin because of very quickly absorbed processed foods can cause excess insulin and a rollercoaster of high and low blood sugar. Too much insulin causes a blood sugar drop which causes you to get weak and hungry. Then you grab a candy bar and spike sugar again which causes more insulin than should be necessary. It's a constant up and down cycle. If consuming carbs it is much better to use slowly absorbed sources for slower absorption without insulin spikes.
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Old 07-29-21, 11:01 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by mwaldin View Post
I might be wrong...
Yup.

Most people are going to have a supply of a 1-2k calories, in the form of glycogen, at the ready for high intensity efforts; riding at lower intensity can goad the body in to burning fat.
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Old 07-29-21, 11:07 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yup.

Most people are going to have a supply of a 1-2k calories, in the form of glycogen, at the ready for high intensity efforts; riding at lower intensity can goad the body in to burning fat.
Yes, which is why fasted exercise is particularly helpful to lose weight. There is no need for the body to use fat if there is plenty of glycogen in the muscle and fast absorbing carbs in the stomach. I think I read somewhere that there can be as much a 3-5 pounds of glycogen stored in muscle. I could be mistaken on the amount though.
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Old 07-29-21, 11:15 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yup.

Most people are going to have a supply of a 1-2k calories, in the form of glycogen, at the ready for high intensity efforts; riding at lower intensity can goad the body in to burning fat.
You make it sound like goading the body to burn fat is a bad thing?

For an endurance rider, a low VLa max is a good thing and frequently riding at high intensity often is counterproductive towards that end. Someone who can burn a lot of fat and pyruvate, will have an FTP much closer to VO2 max percentage-wise than a typical time crunched rider. The changes to type IIA and enzymes take careful training.

I suppose it depends on one's objective. The maximum fat burning power is somewhere just above VT1, maybe low tempo.
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Old 07-29-21, 11:29 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
You make it sound like goading the body to burn fat is a bad thing?
I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but no - it's not a bad thing at all. It's quite desirable for many.
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Old 07-29-21, 11:38 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but no - it's not a bad thing at all. It's quite desirable for many.
I misunderstood what you were saying and was trying to understand. Thanks for clarification
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Old 07-29-21, 12:03 PM
  #143  
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Trust me, you don't need to eat before a workout. Hydrate, yes. Eat a bunch of calores, no. The problem is most people have either never tried, or did it once and didn't like it. Fasting is something that takes time to get used to. Most people go into a mini panic at the first signs of hunger. If the goal is fat loss, you are going to have to make your body uncomfortable. The only way you are in any danger of destroying muscle is due to EXTREME workouts...like how crossfit athletes sometimes experience Rabdo. Look that up if you aren't familiar with it. Sure, you might feel kind of weak and not hit a PR on an empty stomach...but that's not the point. We are talking about weight loss, not maximum performance.
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Old 07-29-21, 12:21 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
Trust me, you don't need to eat before a workout. Hydrate, yes. Eat a bunch of calores, no. The problem is most people have either never tried, or did it once and didn't like it. Fasting is something that takes time to get used to. Most people go into a mini panic at the first signs of hunger. If the goal is fat loss, you are going to have to make your body uncomfortable. The only way you are in any danger of destroying muscle is due to EXTREME workouts...like how crossfit athletes sometimes experience Rabdo. Look that up if you aren't familiar with it. Sure, you might feel kind of weak and not hit a PR on an empty stomach...but that's not the point. We are talking about weight loss, not maximum performance.

You have to be a bit careful with some qualifiers when you post something like that. There are generally a lot of people with eating disorders who come on to sites like this looking for reinforcements on how what they're doing is actually healthy. If there is a gross imbalance between your calorie intake and your level of activity (y'know, like doing a lot of biking while not eating for extended periods of time), losing muscle mass is definitely a risk, so much so that anorexics can die of cardiac failure.
I'm not saying that's a risk from fasting per se, just excessive fasting. Better to specify what you mean by fasting.

And as far as rhabdo goes, if your pee is looking weird, it's time to back off a little.
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Old 07-29-21, 12:23 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
You make it sound like goading the body to burn fat is a bad thing?

For an endurance rider, a low VLa max is a good thing and frequently riding at high intensity often is counterproductive towards that end. Someone who can burn a lot of fat and pyruvate, will have an FTP much closer to VO2 max percentage-wise than a typical time crunched rider. The changes to type IIA and enzymes take careful training.

I suppose it depends on one's objective. The maximum fat burning power is somewhere just above VT1, maybe low tempo.
From what Iíve read low and high intensity exercise appear to be intertwined. Most people simply donít have the time to do the vast amounts of low intensity training necessary to build a big aerobic base on that type of training alone. Plus if they donít do enough high intensity training then their FTP and VO2 max power suffers anyway. So there is a compromise to be made here and I guess that depends on your available training time and end goals. I found this a useful read:-

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/t...-for-cyclists/

Iíve done a couple of seasons now with reduced amounts of low intensity base training and I am stronger for it, especially early season. My goal events are tough 100 mile timed Sportives, so not ultra-endurance. Also Iím not looking to lose any significant weight in my training.
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Old 07-29-21, 12:27 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
You have to be a bit careful with some qualifiers when you post something like that. There are generally a lot of people with eating disorders who come on to sites like this looking for reinforcements on how what they're doing is actually healthy. If there is a gross imbalance between your calorie intake and your level of activity (y'know, like doing a lot of biking while not eating for extended periods of time), losing muscle mass is definitely a risk, so much so that anorexics can die of cardiac failure.
I'm not saying that's a risk from fasting per se, just excessive fasting. Better to specify what you mean by fasting.

And as far as rhabdo goes, if your pee is looking weird, it's time to back off a little.
The very few people with legit eating disorders shouldn't be on an internet forum looking for advice. They should be seeking professional help. What I posted is generally considered sound for most people.
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Old 07-29-21, 12:32 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
Trust me, you don't need to eat before a workout. Hydrate, yes. Eat a bunch of calores, no. The problem is most people have either never tried, or did it once and didn't like it. Fasting is something that takes time to get used to. Most people go into a mini panic at the first signs of hunger. If the goal is fat loss, you are going to have to make your body uncomfortable. The only way you are in any danger of destroying muscle is due to EXTREME workouts...like how crossfit athletes sometimes experience Rabdo. Look that up if you aren't familiar with it. Sure, you might feel kind of weak and not hit a PR on an empty stomach...but that's not the point. We are talking about weight loss, not maximum performance.
The qualifier in bold is very important here. Fuelling most workouts adequately is very much required for performance and health. Unless you are specifically doing a low intensity session for fat burning or active recovery.
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Old 07-29-21, 12:35 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
What I posted is generally considered sound for most people.
I would disagree with that. It sounded more like a hardcore weight loss regime to me.
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Old 07-29-21, 12:39 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
The very few people with legit eating disorders shouldn't be on an internet forum looking for advice. They should be seeking professional help. What I posted is generally considered sound for most people.
What you posted is too poorly formulated to determine whether that last sentence is true.

All I'm saying is that a couple of qualifiers and adjectives could go a long way to making it clear you're not suggesting anything unhealthy. Your statement that "The only way you are in any danger of destroying muscle is due to EXTREME workouts" is actually quite wrong--extreme non-eating can also cause this. "Fasting" means a lot of different things, not sure why you would resist being clear in explaining what you mean by it.

I don't think people with eating disorders are as rare as you seem to think, and it's well-known that they flock to internet forums. Yes, they shouldn't, but that's no excuse to give them ammo to use against themselves.
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Old 07-29-21, 12:43 PM
  #150  
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And fasted has a different meaning to most everyone here.

Is fasted just not eating right before a ride? I do that many times with just breakfast at 6:30am and a 2 to 3 hour ride starting at noon.

Or is it a ride in that 12 to 18 hour window that some say you should go between grazing the 'fridge?
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