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Calories and cycling

Old 07-29-21, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
What you posted is too poorly formulated to determine whether that last sentence is true.

All I'm saying is that a couple of qualifiers and adjectives could go a long way to making it clear you're not suggesting anything unhealthy. Your statement that "The only way you are in any danger of destroying muscle is due to EXTREME workouts" is actually quite wrong--extreme non-eating can also cause this. "Fasting" means a lot of different things, not sure why you would resist being clear in explaining what you mean by it.

I don't think people with eating disorders are as rare as you seem to think, and it's well-known that they flock to internet forums. Yes, they shouldn't, but that's no excuse to give them ammo to use against themselves.
Nevermind. Forget everything I wrote. I failed to consider ever possible aspect of fitness and weight loss and someone might end up hurting themselves because they followed the suggestions of a complete stranger on the internets. My bad.
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Old 07-29-21, 01:06 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Yup.

Most people are going to have a supply of a 1-2k calories, in the form of glycogen, at the ready for high intensity efforts; riding at lower intensity can goad the body in to burning fat.
thanks for the education!
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Old 07-29-21, 01:23 PM
  #153  
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At the risk of potentially sending some readers to the hospital with my hard core advice, I have found for me the best exercise to lose weight is high intensity training, not low intensity. FOR ME, exercising at a quick pace for short durations is more effective than long, slow workouts. If you are interested, check out HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training). My best workouts are less than an hour. Instead of plodding along for 2 hours on your bike, try hammering away for a full minute, then back off to an easy pace for 2-3 minutes....then repeat for 30 minutes. Hill repeats are good for this kind of workout. Find a good hill and climb it as fast as your can for a minute or two, then turn around and coast down. Catch your breath for a few moments and then repeat. Long, low intensity workouts do not work for me.

But all of this will not likely result in significant weight loss if you are not controlling your eating. There is an old bodybuilder's saying that "abs are made in the kitchen".
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Old 07-29-21, 01:41 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
At the risk of potentially sending some readers to the hospital with my hard core advice, I have found for me the best exercise to lose weight is high intensity training, not low intensity. FOR ME, exercising at a quick pace for short durations is more effective than long, slow workouts. If you are interested, check out HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training). My best workouts are less than an hour. Instead of plodding along for 2 hours on your bike, try hammering away for a full minute, then back off to an easy pace for 2-3 minutes....then repeat for 30 minutes. Hill repeats are good for this kind of workout. Find a good hill and climb it as fast as your can for a minute or two, then turn around and coast down. Catch your breath for a few moments and then repeat. Long, low intensity workouts do not work for me.

But all of this will not likely result in significant weight loss if you are not controlling your eating. There is an old bodybuilder's saying that "abs are made in the kitchen".
"Sprint 8" is a good example of what you are saying here. I must say it is a very good bang for the buck if you are short of training time. The problem with the plodding along approach is that 2 hours doesn't really cut it. Needs more like double that and more to be effective. For most people the slow plodding approach is impractical because of the sheer time required.
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Old 07-29-21, 01:46 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
"Sprint 8" is a good example of what you are saying here. I must say it is a very good bang for the buck if you are short of training time. The problem with the plodding along approach is that 2 hours doesn't really cut it. Needs more like double that and more to be effective. For most people the slow plodding approach is impractical because of the sheer time required.
And consistency being key to any workout program, it is a LOT easier to fit a 30 minute workout into the daily schedule than a 2-3 hour session. It's real easy to talk yourself out of a 3 hour workout.
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Old 07-29-21, 01:55 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
And consistency being key to any workout program, it is a LOT easier to fit a 30 minute workout into the daily schedule than a 2-3 hour session. It's real easy to talk yourself out of a 3 hour workout.
Absolutely. Always best to be realistic about your training volume front the start and then aim to get the most out of that time. For most people that means mostly short, relatively high intensity sessions, although you can over-do it. The Sprint-8 I mentioned is not recommended more than 2-3 times per week.
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Old 07-29-21, 02:03 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
From what Iíve read low and high intensity exercise appear to be intertwined. Most people simply donít have the time to do the vast amounts of low intensity training necessary to build a big aerobic base on that type of training alone. Plus if they donít do enough high intensity training then their FTP and VO2 max power suffers anyway. So there is a compromise to be made here and I guess that depends on your available training time and end goals. I found this a useful read:-

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/t...-for-cyclists/

Iíve done a couple of seasons now with reduced amounts of low intensity base training and I am stronger for it, especially early season. My goal events are tough 100 mile timed Sportives, so not ultra-endurance. Also Iím not looking to lose any significant weight in my training.
Some respond better to volume. No question, few have the time. So, HIIT it is. The TP guy is wrong, if you look at the training of Professionals, they do a ton of volume in the lower zones.....I don't have time to find the reference. So, to say volume is a waste of time is a fool speaking

https://simplifaster.com/articles/ho...le-is-vo2-max/

https://gccoaching.fit/2019/02/18/br...ax-vs-vo2-max/
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Old 07-29-21, 02:47 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Some respond better to volume. No question, few have the time. So, HIIT it is. The TP guy is wrong, if you look at the training of Professionals, they do a ton of volume in the lower zones.....I don't have time to find the reference. So, to say volume is a waste of time is a fool speaking

https://simplifaster.com/articles/ho...le-is-vo2-max/

https://gccoaching.fit/2019/02/18/br...ax-vs-vo2-max/
I very much doubt heís a fool talking. But maybe he didnít put enough emphasis on the fact that you have to put in a ton of volume to get a meaningful result from low intensity base training. 16-25 hours a week of base plodding according to Neal Henderson (definitely no fool). So for pretty much anyone who is not a full time pro, there are better balanced strategies. HIIT is the other end of the extreme, but is at least practical. I do something in-between, but always with plenty of intensity all year round.

Henderson says that people typically doing a couple of 2-3 hour low intensity rides per week ďbase trainingĒ throughout the winter months are the ones really wasting their time and would benefit more from some intensity.

Last edited by PeteHski; 07-29-21 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 07-29-21, 03:01 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
I very much doubt heís a fool talking. But maybe he didnít put enough emphasis on the fact that you have to put in a ton of volume to get a meaningful result from low intensity base training. 16-25 hours a week of base plodding according to Neal Henderson (definitely no fool). So for pretty much anyone who is not a full time pro, there are better balanced strategies. HIIT is the other end of the extreme, but is at least practical. I do something in-between, but always with plenty of intensity all year round.

Henderson says that people typically doing a couple of 2-3 hour low intensity rides per week ďbase trainingĒ throughout the winter months are the ones really wasting their time and would benefit more from some intensity.
Plodding is the wrong word. Z2/Z3 is not plodding

He is a fool.
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Old 07-29-21, 04:06 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Plodding is the wrong word. Z2/Z3 is not plodding

He is a fool.
Well thatís just your opinion. Not a fact.

I just read your first link and it is interesting. But I donít think it says how much low intensity work the guy actually had to do to improve his VO2 max by 40% over the 3 years.
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Old 07-29-21, 04:12 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
Well thatís just your opinion. Not a fact.

I just read your first link and it is interesting. But I donít think it says how much low intensity work the guy actually had to do to improve his VO2 max by 40% over the 3 years.
You have a Masters Degree in Engineering? The distribution by zone is there. It ain't hard to figure out.

HIIT is the best that time crunched can do but for JIM RUTBERG to claim that this is useless is untrue. Just look at the distribution of professional cyclists.
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Old 07-29-21, 04:23 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
You have a Masters Degree in Engineering? The distribution by zone is there. It ain't hard to figure out.
Okay if those unlabelled units are hours per week, then heís doing about 16 hours per week of low intensity volume. Which is no different to what my sources suggest as a minimum for pros to make meaningful gains with that kind of training regime. The 40% gain is also clearly freakish.
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Old 07-29-21, 04:38 PM
  #163  
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Z2/Z3 isn't plodding, it's pleasant.
Z3/Z4 isn't pleasant, it's fun.
Z4/Z5 isn't fun, it's satisfying.
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Old 07-29-21, 04:40 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
Yes, which is why fasted exercise is particularly helpful to lose weight. There is no need for the body to use fat if there is plenty of glycogen in the muscle and fast absorbing carbs in the stomach. I think I read somewhere that there can be as much a 3-5 pounds of glycogen stored in muscle. I could be mistaken on the amount though.
That conclusion (fasted exercise increases fat metabolism and thus weight loss) is, well, "controversial".

Exercise Training and Fasting: Current Insights


Our review of the literature suggests that there is little evidence to support the notion of endurance training and fasting-mediated increases in fat oxidation...

--Zoulah et al, Journal of Sports Medicine, 2020
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Old 07-29-21, 04:43 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post

HIIT is the best that time crunched can do but for JIM RUTBERG to claim that this is useless is untrue. Just look at the distribution of professional cyclists.
Here is another ďfoolĒ attempting to explain the same thing ie long periods of low intensity base training are a waste of time for anyone who doesnít have 20+ hours per week to train like a professional athlete.

https://thesufferfest.com/blogs/trai...nched-athletes
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Old 07-29-21, 06:24 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
That conclusion (fasted exercise increases fat metabolism and thus weight loss) is, well, "controversial".
Everything is controversial to some extent. I would however clarify that I didn't actually say that fasted exercise increases fat metabolism so much as I said that there is no reason for the body to burn fat when both the muscles and stomach are full of fuel.
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Old 07-29-21, 08:27 PM
  #167  
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Some of y'all are trying to be way too scientific. Eat less and exercise is the winning formula. No excuses. Screw all your ish's. Eat fewer calories and exercise more. Dont' make it so complicated.

Last edited by pgjackson; 07-29-21 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 07-30-21, 04:13 AM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
That conclusion (fasted exercise increases fat metabolism and thus weight loss) is, well, "controversial".
Any unconventional approach which works and produces positive results is going to be controversial....I've been hammered on these forums many times for saying that I eat instinctively and don't keep track of how many calories I eat and burn and still manage to maintain a lean physique....and yes I also believe in fasted exercise and do it quite regularly...
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Old 07-30-21, 05:16 AM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Any unconventional approach which works and produces positive results is going to be controversial....I've been hammered on these forums many times for saying that I eat instinctively and don't keep track of how many calories I eat and burn and still manage to maintain a lean physique....and yes I also believe in fasted exercise and do it quite regularly...
From what Iíve seen you donít get hammered for saying that at all. But you do get hammered for saying that doing anything different is pointless.
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Old 07-30-21, 05:19 AM
  #170  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
Some of y'all are trying to be way too scientific. Eat less and exercise is the winning formula. No excuses. Screw all your ish's. Eat fewer calories and exercise more. Dont' make it so complicated.

Actually, I lost about 50 pounds eating more and exercising more, but feel free to state your useless generalities as universal truths. Also, the "winning formula" is maintaining whatever regimen it is that's giving you a healthy balance between calories in and activity, that maintaining is the hard part. It's also a balance that's going to vary a lot from person to person. You and I have the relative luxury of being able to engage in high intensity and/or long duration exercise. Lots of people can't tolerate that for a multitude of legitimate reasons.

One thing I'm sure of is moralizing at people doesn't work and is more important to the ego of the moralizer than to the people it's supposed to be "helping." That no excuses rhetoric has been done to death, and look where we are with obesity in this society. If it really was as simple as you say, that obesity wouldn't be happening.
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Old 07-30-21, 05:24 AM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Any unconventional approach which works and produces positive results is going to be controversial....I've been hammered on these forums many times for saying that I eat instinctively and don't keep track of how many calories I eat and burn and still manage to maintain a lean physique....and yes I also believe in fasted exercise and do it quite regularly...

You're being blasted for insisting that that approach will work for everyone. No one is blasting you for doing what you do. You're getting blasted for telling people what they're doing is wrong because it's not the way you do it.

You seem incapable of understanding that a massive amount of this is genetic, and you seem to think everyone has the same genes as you do.
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Old 07-30-21, 06:08 AM
  #172  
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True fasting is not good for performance. Going on an endurance ride before break fast certainly helps build mitochondria in size and density and some would consider this intermittent fasting but that is just semantics. A bigger aerobic engine makes you go faster. Going faster requires more fuel. Burning more fuel generally helps lose excessive fat storage. Those pesky mitochondria take a lot of tending to as we get older. There are lots and lots of ways to get and keep them mitochondria humming........I would contend that weight loss really should focus on correcting one's faulty biochemistry and to stop putting the wrong materials into one's mouth

Summary

  • Mitochondrial biogenesis is regulated at the transcriptional and post-transcriptional levels of gene expression.
  • PGC-1α is a co-transcriptional regulation factor that plays a central role in the regulation of mitochondrial biogenesis.
  • Mitochondrial biogenesis is increased, among other factors, by endurance exercise and caloric restriction.
  • Understanding the molecular mechanisms regulating mitochondrial biogenesis may provide important therapeutic targets to prevent and treat numerous diseases, such as Type 2 diabetes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3883043/
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Old 07-30-21, 07:19 AM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Actually, I lost about 50 pounds eating more and exercising more, but feel free to state your useless generalities as universal truths. Also, the "winning formula" is maintaining whatever regimen it is that's giving you a healthy balance between calories in and activity, that maintaining is the hard part. It's also a balance that's going to vary a lot from person to person. You and I have the relative luxury of being able to engage in high intensity and/or long duration exercise. Lots of people can't tolerate that for a multitude of legitimate reasons.

One thing I'm sure of is moralizing at people doesn't work and is more important to the ego of the moralizer than to the people it's supposed to be "helping." That no excuses rhetoric has been done to death, and look where we are with obesity in this society. If it really was as simple as you say, that obesity wouldn't be happening.
No it really is that easy. Of course there are medical issues that should be taken into consideration, but for the huge majority of humanity eating less and exercising is the best way to lose weight if that is your goal. We have an obesity problem because of the amounts and types of food people choose to eat. Self control is difficult. I assure you more people have been helped through what you call moralizing than by overcomplicated, touchy-feely weight loss fads.
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Old 07-30-21, 08:07 AM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
No it really is that easy. Of course there are medical issues that should be taken into consideration, but for the huge majority of humanity eating less and exercising is the best way to lose weight if that is your goal. We have an obesity problem because of the amounts and types of food people choose to eat. Self control is difficult. I assure you more people have been helped through what you call moralizing than by overcomplicated, touchy-feely weight loss fads.
Not just calories in VS calories used. Types of foods absolutely do matter and too many people have no clue because too many simply preach to eat less and exercise more. I went from a 50 year old 6'2 360lb man to a 53 year old 180lb man, not by eating less and exercising more, but by eating different types of food. Yes ,I did eventually get to the point where I ate less and exercised more but that simple mantra had failed me for 50 years. In one sense it is true to tell an obese person that they need to eat less and exercise more, but you might as well tell them that they need to lose weight for all the good it will likely do. Fasting, and low carb work because it will actually teach someone how to eat healthier type foods and eat less. Exercise should also be key to any weight loss program ,but personally, I had to drop about 80 pounds before I could do any effective exercise.

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Old 07-30-21, 08:09 AM
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