Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Calories and cycling

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Calories and cycling

Old 07-30-21, 08:11 AM
  #176  
NomarsGirl
Senior Member
 
NomarsGirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Easton, MA
Posts: 558

Bikes: Specialized Ruby Sport

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Liked 212 Times in 123 Posts
I don't recommend this method, but I had a serious health issue that resulted in a nearly complete loss of appetite. I lost more than 50 pounds in a month. (I wasn't eating at all). Now, people just tell me that I look great. No one asks if I'm OK. (I'm really not) I finally look like a cyclilst.

NomarsGirl is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 08:36 AM
  #177  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,817

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5078 Post(s)
Liked 4,375 Times in 2,462 Posts
Originally Posted by pgjackson View Post
No it really is that easy. Of course there are medical issues that should be taken into consideration, but for the huge majority of humanity eating less and exercising is the best way to lose weight if that is your goal. We have an obesity problem because of the amounts and types of food people choose to eat. Self control is difficult. I assure you more people have been helped through what you call moralizing than by overcomplicated, touchy-feely weight loss fads.

And winning a baseball game is as easy as scoring more runs than the other side. All that worrying about hitting, pitching and fielding is so besides the point.

The point is there's nothing simple about that when people have varying access to healthy foods, time and facilities for physical exercise, family and job commitments that pull them in different directions, varying genetic traits that make metabolizing of food a different equation for pretty much everybody, and possible physical infirmities that make both exercise and the acquisition of healthy foods difficult for people.

What you're demonstrating here is that it's possible to state the issue at such a high level of generality that it sounds simple when the issue is that there is no cookie cutter formula for how to achieve that balance that keeps a person at a healthy weight over time.

And trust me, I don't believe in "fads", touchy-feely or otherwise. I'll avoid the topic of whether I think cross-training is actually a fading fad, btw, but I think even you would have to acknowledge it isn't a good fit for everyone.

I have lost nearly half my body weight and kept it off for about 5 years now and I assure you I was never helped by anyone's moralizing. I certainly didn't do it through the use of any fad diet, I basically made up my own regimen as I saw what would actually allow me to maintain a slow but steady weight loss, then to keep it off when I actually exceeded my original weight loss goal. Frankly, I do know a fair number of people who have lost and kept off some serious amounts of weight, and I don't believe any one of them ever told me that someone scolding them about their lack of self-control was ever helpful to them. Some egoists like to think they're being helpful, I guess, but it usually is just claptrap from people who claim to have it all figured out for everyone else.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 08:39 AM
  #178  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,817

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5078 Post(s)
Liked 4,375 Times in 2,462 Posts
Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
The answer to substance dependence is simple: Just stop using the stuff and live normally for the rest of your life.

Too subtle--it'll fly right over their heads.
livedarklions is offline  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 07-30-21, 08:50 AM
  #179  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,817

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5078 Post(s)
Liked 4,375 Times in 2,462 Posts
Originally Posted by NomarsGirl View Post
I don't recommend this method, but I had a serious health issue that resulted in a nearly complete loss of appetite. I lost more than 50 pounds in a month. (I wasn't eating at all). Now, people just tell me that I look great. No one asks if I'm OK. (I'm really not) I finally look like a cyclilst.

I'm always glad to see you posting and hope your health is improving. I'm selfish, your posts are always interesting and amusing so I want to read more of them.

I had a bit of the opposite experience, my weight loss was so extreme that people were asking me if everything was ok. I'm sorry you're getting the short end of that bargain.

I just saw a documentary show (I think it was Nova) about the role of fat in health, and they did a segment on a man who had a genetic disorder that didn't allow his body to store any significant amounts of fat. Because of the lack of fat, his muscles looked huge and defined, but he actually was weak and could barely walk, both because his knees lacked fat pads and because he would get fatigued with very low levels of exertion as he had very little stored energy reserves. But he definitely looked good in a bathing suit.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 09:04 AM
  #180  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 4,273

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 767 Times in 423 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
That conclusion (fasted exercise increases fat metabolism and thus weight loss) is, well, "controversial".
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Any unconventional approach which works and produces positive results is going to be controversial.
When I wrote "controversial", I meant a specific thing: that science has not been able to show that it works.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat
terrymorse is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 09:13 AM
  #181  
RH Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked 154 Times in 81 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
When I wrote "controversial", I meant a specific thing: that science has not been able to show that it works.
That all depends on where you get your information. For every scientist with one fact. I can show you one with the opposite conclusion. Science is not the source of truth. It is simply a method of learning. Science is constantly changing it's mind because we are all constantly learning new things. The best any of us can do is to gather as much information as possible from all sources and then use our reasoning and logic to determine what is the best information for us to use.
RH Clark is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 10:08 AM
  #182  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 4,273

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 767 Times in 423 Posts
Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
For every scientist with one fact. I can show you one with the opposite conclusion. Science is not the source of truth. It is simply a method of learning. Science is constantly changing it's mind because we are all constantly learning new things. The best any of us can do is to gather as much information as possible from all sources and then use our reasoning and logic to determine what is the best information for us to use.
Be careful, that sounds a lot like cherry picking, in which ones searches for a study that confirms what one already believes.

The state of scientific knowledge isn't based on a single study, but on many to form a consensus. That's why it's good to look for review articles that articulates the state of the science, as they synthesize their conclusions from many independent studies.

For example, the review article I linked to: Exercise Training and Fasting: Current Insights. From which I quoted: "there is little evidence to support the notion of endurance training and fasting-mediated increases in fat oxidation".

The best we can do is to make decisions based on the scientific consensus.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat
terrymorse is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 10:43 AM
  #183  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,817

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5078 Post(s)
Liked 4,375 Times in 2,462 Posts
Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
That all depends on where you get your information. For every scientist with one fact. I can show you one with the opposite conclusion. Science is not the source of truth. It is simply a method of learning. Science is constantly changing it's mind because we are all constantly learning new things. The best any of us can do is to gather as much information as possible from all sources and then use our reasoning and logic to determine what is the best information for us to use.

You sort of contradict yourself here, but consider this a friendly correction please.

I agree that the science in this area is particularly muddy with contradictory findings all over the place. My sense is where it's leading is a notion that these things are going to need to be tailored at an individual level as people respond differently in the way things are metabolized, different levels of activity, etc. Given the amount of conflicting information about things like fasting, I think the best thing for me to do is to use the literature to suggest things I might try to see if they actually work for me. Nothing personal, but I have absolutely nothing at stake in figuring out if it will work for you, and when you say it does, I have no way of knowing if that's true or applicable to me. If I think the person might know what they're talking about, I might try something they say works for them, but that's obviously a subjective call on my part.

I'm under the impression that the more I ride over 100 miles in a day, the more fat I lose regardless of what I eat in that day, but I haven't tried to measure that and probably wouldn't care if that turned out to be wrong.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 10:51 AM
  #184  
wolfchild
Senior Member
 
wolfchild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 6,855

Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2297 Post(s)
Liked 1,102 Times in 557 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post

The best we can do is to make decisions based on the scientific consensus.
I believe that the best thing to do is to ignore nutrition studies and continue to do what works for us as individuals...Nutrition science is too confusing and contradictory.
wolfchild is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 10:59 AM
  #185  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,817

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5078 Post(s)
Liked 4,375 Times in 2,462 Posts
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I believe that the best thing to do is to ignore nutrition studies and continue to do what works for us as individuals...Nutrition science is too confusing and contradictory.

The problem comes in when we don't know yet what works for us. When the things that are supposed to be obvious aren't working, where do we go for ideas on what to try?

You haven't really experienced that, many of us on this thread have.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:01 AM
  #186  
wolfchild
Senior Member
 
wolfchild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 6,855

Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2297 Post(s)
Liked 1,102 Times in 557 Posts
Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
When I wrote "controversial", I meant a specific thing: that science has not been able to show that it works.
There are many people out there for whom fasted training works, that's why they keep doing it, if it didn't work they wouldn't be doing it.
wolfchild is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:05 AM
  #187  
wolfchild
Senior Member
 
wolfchild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 6,855

Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2297 Post(s)
Liked 1,102 Times in 557 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The problem comes in when we don't know yet what works for us. When the things that are supposed to be obvious aren't working, where do we go for ideas on what to try?

You haven't really experienced that, many of us on this thread have.
Knowing what works and what doesn't comes through self-experimentation and trail and error, that's the way I do it...
wolfchild is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:19 AM
  #188  
RH Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked 154 Times in 81 Posts
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I believe that the best thing to do is to ignore nutrition studies and continue to do what works for us as individuals...Nutrition science is too confusing and contradictory.
Not at all, but it's also important to understand that the science that those studies evaluate is constantly advancing. Notions of what is the perfect human diet have changed over the years. I believe it was as early as 2016 that the Nobel prize was awarded for mapping out the process of Autophagy. Possibly, IMHO, some of the best info we can gain about nutrition science is looking into the diet and lifestyle of the healthiest and longest lived population segments from all around the globe, and even then specific genetics will determine outcomes likely as much as any other factor. Lots of factors play into overall health. Some people have specific needs that require deviation from the norm. That doesn't make what they do wrong. It can make it right for them specifically.

Maybe I'm just a bit older and more cynical than some, but I've seen science change too much over the years to think otherwise. If there is one thing I am sure of today is that anytime anyone thinks they have it all figured out, you can be sure that they don't.
RH Clark is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:19 AM
  #189  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,817

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5078 Post(s)
Liked 4,375 Times in 2,462 Posts
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Knowing what works and what doesn't comes through self-experimentation and trail and error, that's the way I do it...

We agree on that, it's just I had to try a lot more things than you did given that I can't "instinctively" control my caloric intake as you say you do.
Scientific literature can provide me with ideas I can try, and also warn me off of things that are proving to be downright harmful.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:24 AM
  #190  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,825

Bikes: Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times in 1,861 Posts
Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
From what Iíve seen you donít get hammered for saying that at all. But you do get hammered for saying that doing anything different is pointless.
Bingo.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
genejockey is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:26 AM
  #191  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,817

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5078 Post(s)
Liked 4,375 Times in 2,462 Posts
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
There are many people out there for whom fasted training works, that's why they keep doing it, if it didn't work they wouldn't be doing it.

It works for them, or at least they believe it works. It does not mean that that's generally applicable. Scientific studies are designed to pick up the people it doesn't work for as well as the people it does.

My basic approach to this is that everything works for someone but nothing works for everybody. If I tried to do everything somebody claims works for them, I'll constantly be going nuts because the stuff is mutually contradictory.

It's not that long ago everybody was convinced the key was constant grazing on small meals throughout the day, now we're all being convinced the key is intermittent fasting, which is literally the opposite approach.
livedarklions is offline  
Likes For livedarklions:
Old 07-30-21, 11:26 AM
  #192  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,825

Bikes: Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times in 1,861 Posts
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Knowing what works and what doesn't comes through self-experimentation and trail and error, that's the way I do it...
Which means your conclusions should be limited to yourself. An N of 1 is insufficient for making universal conclusions.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
genejockey is offline  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 07-30-21, 11:31 AM
  #193  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,817

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5078 Post(s)
Liked 4,375 Times in 2,462 Posts
Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
And fasted has a different meaning to most everyone here.

Is fasted just not eating right before a ride? I do that many times with just breakfast at 6:30am and a 2 to 3 hour ride starting at noon.

Or is it a ride in that 12 to 18 hour window that some say you should go between grazing the 'fridge?
When anyone mentions "fasting", part of my brain goes right to images of Yom Kippur, and I get really, really thirsty. 24 hours without food is not a big deal, but without water? Bleccch!
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:42 AM
  #194  
RH Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked 154 Times in 81 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
When anyone mentions "fasting", part of my brain goes right to images of Yom Kippur, and I get really, really thirsty. 24 hours without food is not a big deal, but without water? Bleccch!
I can't see any reason to fast without water except for religious reasons or something related to body building competition. I have IM fasted for about 2 years because it is a weight loss and health promoting strategy that works for me. When I started 6 hours without calories was dang tough. For about a year now though I eat calories in a 4 hour window every day. I do that about 90% of the time but I'm not so religious about it that I won't eat some healthy carbs if I start lagging on a long bike ride. It's just a day to day strategy that helps me maintain a healthy body weight. I cycle every day fasted but it might only be 5-10 miles. If I do 30+ miles, you can be sure I'll eat something when I feel like I need it.
RH Clark is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:42 AM
  #195  
terrymorse 
climber has-been
 
terrymorse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 4,273

Bikes: Scott Addict R1

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 767 Times in 423 Posts
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
There are many people out there for whom fasted training works, that's why they keep doing it, if it didn't work they wouldn't be doing it.
For any diet, or food supplement, or training practice, one can find many people who use it and enthusiastically claim that it "works". But science requires more stringent criteria than "a bunch of people say it works".

Do as you please, of course. But science doesn't support your claims.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat
terrymorse is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:43 AM
  #196  
Iride01
Hits [ENTER] b4 thinking
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 8,274

Bikes: '20 Tarmac Disc Comp '91, '78 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3259 Post(s)
Liked 1,857 Times in 1,318 Posts
Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
When anyone mentions "fasting", part of my brain goes right to images of Yom Kippur, and I get really, really thirsty. 24 hours without food is not a big deal, but without water? Bleccch!
We'll not know evidently as the proponents are just arguing without defining or qualifying anything. My question wasn't answered and I don't know if one is expected to be able to hold their own against non-fasted riders they might ride with or if this is just for those that are only concentrating on weight loss above all else.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:43 AM
  #197  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,825

Bikes: Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times in 1,861 Posts
Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
That all depends on where you get your information. For every scientist with one fact. I can show you one with the opposite conclusion. Science is not the source of truth. It is simply a method of learning. Science is constantly changing it's mind because we are all constantly learning new things. The best any of us can do is to gather as much information as possible from all sources and then use our reasoning and logic to determine what is the best information for us to use.
No, no, no, no, no! Science doesn't "change its mind". That's nonsensical. What happens is usually that someone other than the scientists reads conclusions which we have carefully couched in conditionals, and then broadcasts the conclusions without the conditionals.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
genejockey is offline  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 07-30-21, 11:46 AM
  #198  
RH Clark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked 154 Times in 81 Posts
Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
No, no, no, no, no! Science doesn't "change its mind". That's nonsensical. What happens is usually that someone other than the scientists reads conclusions which we have carefully couched in conditionals, and then broadcasts the conclusions without the conditionals.
Really? Leading scientists of the day once used leaches and bleeding to treat disease. It was the scientifically approved practice of the day. LOL!

Be blessed ,happy and well my friend.
RH Clark is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:50 AM
  #199  
livedarklions
Racerboyz' b'crat
 
livedarklions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 9,817

Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5078 Post(s)
Liked 4,375 Times in 2,462 Posts
Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
We'll not know evidently as the proponents are just arguing without defining or qualifying anything. My question wasn't answered and I don't know if one is expected to be able to hold their own against non-fasted riders they might ride with or if this is just for those that are only concentrating on weight loss above all else.

With you on that. Some people consider fasting to be a multi-day event, others just mean skip a meal, and still others mean just don't eat during the ride.

I remember a thread that involved nutrition on a long ride and the answers were all over the barn. I finally realized that no one was agreeing on a definition of a "long ride". The range of rides people were talking about was something like 15 miles to over 100.
livedarklions is offline  
Old 07-30-21, 11:51 AM
  #200  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 6,825

Bikes: Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 3,687 Times in 1,861 Posts
Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
Really? Leading scientists of the day once used leaches and bleeding to treat disease. It was the scientifically approved practice of the day. LOL!

Be blessed ,happy and well my friend.
Given that they weren't practicing the scientific method, I'm not clear why you'd refer to them as 'scientists'.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
genejockey is offline  
Likes For genejockey:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.