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I Said I Would Never EVER Buy An E-Bike...but

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I Said I Would Never EVER Buy An E-Bike...but

Old 07-29-21, 05:45 PM
  #251  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
If I could generate an additional 250 watts I'd be a cycling god in my group!
Exactly. Finding an additional 10W is a big win for me during a hard training block.
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Old 07-29-21, 06:49 PM
  #252  
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Without the e bike I would probably be down around 500-800 miles a year now instead of 4,000+
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Old 07-29-21, 07:11 PM
  #253  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
7 watt hours per mile would be consistent with me on my wife's 38 lb 750 watt e bike at 15 mph but not my 82 lb touring fat e bike at 20mph whenever the conditions permit.
At full touring weight and max power I am at just less than 4 watts per KG. Your 350 watts would put me down around 1.8 watts per KG and I could not go much off the pavement or climb steep grades. I would be too slow to balance.
While I can see your conundrum, My POINT is, and always has been, Keeping a bicycle a bicycle... Even tho, I ride an "Assisted" bicycle... at what point does "assist" become" a motorized bicycle, well that IS, already established with the E-Bike laws. Which I strongly dis-agree with here in N America... Your numbers of 20 + watts per mile are almost the same as my numbers for using my E-Assist bike as a moped on the highest setting while I ride, witch, the cut off is 32Km/Hr. that is 20MPH.. It works out to 14watts per Km, or 22.4 watts per mile... Well... whenever I ride like that I am always thinking I am riding a moped, compared to what I can do with my own power only... Oh, my bike and me together are 280Lbs...

My assist is just simply NOT enough to go up any hill without my pedaling, 350 watts hub motor just won't let me go anywhere without pedaling but flat ground. and, THAT is what an E-Assist bike should be.. IMO Assisting, NOT doing the whole job...
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Old 07-29-21, 07:47 PM
  #254  
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FROM THE OP: The direction this thread has taken reminds me of why I resisted buying my wife an e-bike in the first place. There is suddenly so much more "techno-stress" in an activity that was once very pure. Now, every time we ride, I find myself stressing about whether her battery is going to last the whole trip, if she's going to get a rear-wheel flat that requires disconnecting and re-connecting all the power cables to get the wheel off, and how I'm going to store the bike over the winter so the battery doesn't explode.

And now, instead of looking forward to conversations about memorable routes and how to psych yourself up a hill, I find myself going out of my way to avoid conversations about wattage and voltage and laws and proper charging methods. I am thrilled that my wife likes her e-bike (although she is still terrified of it), but I agree with those who feel that e-bikes are casting a cloud over a sport/recreational activity/transportation mode that really didn't need to be messed with. I am saddened to watch young people zipping by on the bike path, thumbs fully engaging the throttle while holding a phone to their face in the other hand. I feel like they are missing out on the thrill and exhilaration of getting from Point A to point B on their own pedal power, and I resent that they seem to be looking down on me and my old-fashioned pedal bike as they leave me in the dust on trails I've been riding since before they were born.

However, to reiterate my original point, for certain people -- older folks and adults who did not grow up on bicycles and don't have the stamina, strength, or desire to sweat their way through even a two or three mile ride - I believe e-bikes have opened up a world they never would have had an opportunity to enjoy.
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Old 07-29-21, 08:24 PM
  #255  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
While I can see your conundrum, My POINT is, and always has been, Keeping a bicycle a bicycle... Even tho, I ride an "Assisted" bicycle... at what point does "assist" become" a motorized bicycle, well that IS, already established with the E-Bike laws. Which I strongly dis-agree with here in N America... Your numbers of 20 + watts per mile are almost the same as my numbers for using my E-Assist bike as a moped on the highest setting while I ride, witch, the cut off is 32Km/Hr. that is 20MPH.. It works out to 14watts per Km, or 22.4 watts per mile... Well... whenever I ride like that I am always thinking I am riding a moped, compared to what I can do with my own power only... Oh, my bike and me together are 280Lbs...

My assist is just simply NOT enough to go up any hill without my pedaling, 350 watts hub motor just won't let me go anywhere without pedaling but flat ground. and, THAT is what an E-Assist bike should be.. IMO Assisting, NOT doing the whole job...
To achieve 20 watt hours per mile I have to put in between 125 and 150 watts of my own power. If I were to use throttle alone I would likely be up in the 27-28 watt hours per mile. I have never used throttle to achieve20 mph. My throttle pushes the bike to a top speed of 18 mph. That is how I have it programed. I use it to get started with a heavy load. Most of my group rides are in the 6-7 watt hours per mile range. The power hog stuff is when long distance per day touring.
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Old 07-29-21, 09:07 PM
  #256  
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You guys are studs for sure but when I get my 750 watter back together I'll show you some hill climbing! We've got plenty of 12 to 14 percenters around here, with a few stretches up to 20%. I have to work hard to ride them in my 34-34. With the 750, I expect to clear them w/o breaking a sweat!
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Old 07-29-21, 09:13 PM
  #257  
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on our tandem when we cruse at about 18.5 mph we only use around 4 watts per mile and are only putting out around 120 or less on my part. I can't measure my wife's output. we use around 90 watts per mile when we climb a short 20% grade and put out around 350 to 400 watts.
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Old 07-29-21, 09:18 PM
  #258  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Exactly... Most people seem to not realize that... Now, having said that, most people are people and will take the easy way out almost every time...
exactly.

riding an e-bike allows me and my congenital heart condition to ride 20, 50, 80 miles with thousands of feet of climbing, at exactly the maximum effort I can safely sustain - which is still over 200 watts average. without the motor when needed, I’d be limited to almost entirely flat rides. the assist percentages on my long rides is usually less than 10 percent. there’s also a lot of anecdotal evidence that average people with eBikes ride them more than average people with regular bikes.

I hope to see more even lighter, lower powered, smaller battery eBikes on the market. A 20lb road eBike with a 250w motor and a 150 wH battery would let most all people tackle most all urban and suburban terrain without unreasonable effort.
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Old 07-30-21, 09:07 AM
  #259  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
You guys are studs for sure but when I get my 750 watter back together I'll show you some hill climbing! We've got plenty of 12 to 14 percenters around here, with a few stretches up to 20%. I have to work hard to ride them in my 34-34. With the 750, I expect to clear them w/o breaking a sweat!
I used to sweat in the hills on my YZ490. I started riding bicycles to get in better shape for the mc. I think it had about 33,000 watts.
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Old 07-30-21, 12:06 PM
  #260  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
You guys are studs for sure but when I get my 750 watter back together I'll show you some hill climbing! We've got plenty of 12 to 14 percenters around here, with a few stretches up to 20%. I have to work hard to ride them in my 34-34. With the 750, I expect to clear them w/o breaking a sweat!
Maybe and maybe not. Depends on the bike, the speed you expect and you. 750 watts is way better than a human can do but still totally pathetic from a power transmission point of view. Even a 20" push mower has more power than 750 watts.
Current e bike laws disproportionally favor petite riders but then, so does biking in general.
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Old 07-30-21, 12:19 PM
  #261  
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Well, I'm a porker, right at Clyde territory if you include the bike! I've tried this motor when my friend had it set up. I was able to throttle up one of our steeper hills at a good clip. I'll only use it for short jaunts so battery life shouldn't be an issue.
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Old 07-30-21, 07:10 PM
  #262  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
Maybe and maybe not. Depends on the bike, the speed you expect and you. 750 watts is way better than a human can do but still totally pathetic from a power transmission point of view. Even a 20" push mower has more power than 750 watts.
Current e bike laws disproportionally favor petite riders but then, so does biking in general.
The EU Laws do a MUCH better job at differentiating between a moped/or motorized bicycle... , , , Here in the N American continent, companies seem to have won the governments approval, to sell mopeds/motorized bicycles and Legally call them bicycles... Well, what they should have done, ( the government legislators) is license some of these motorized bicycles as bicycle to people who can "prove" they Need it for medical reasons, (if you need a 1,500 watt motor, no problem,)... , All others need to get a moped license, or ride lower powered E-Bikes that "actually" do fit in the category or an E-Assist bicycle... again . JMO.
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Old 07-30-21, 07:33 PM
  #263  
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If it has a motor, it "actually"....
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Old 07-30-21, 07:41 PM
  #264  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
If it has a motor....
Yes, for the tenth time or more, if it has a motor it is NOT a bicycle... But, Legally, there IS a differentiation, ... , What, do you not understand about that differentiation ... I think most people do, understand the difference, it's the level of "assistance" they have a problem with... or maybe, it's just me... ???

It is certainly feeling like it's just me, for the last 10? years.????
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Old 07-30-21, 07:51 PM
  #265  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
If it has a motor, it "actually"....
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Old 07-31-21, 11:10 AM
  #266  
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This is what the dictionary says:-

Bicycle: A vehicle consisting of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel.

Motorcycle: A two-wheeled vehicle that is powered by a motor and has no pedals.

E-bike: A bike that can be powered by electricity as well as propelled by pedals

As this thread has certainly demonstrated, the generic term E-bike covers an extremely wide range of applications. At one end of the spectrum we have relatively low powered lightweight e-bikes that are still mostly propelled by pedalling with a proportional motor assist. While at the other end of the spectrum we have powerful heavyweight e-bikes with throttles and pedals with high levels of non-proportional assist. Plus about a 100 shades of grey in-between.
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Old 07-31-21, 12:07 PM
  #267  
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
This is what the dictionary says:-

Bicycle: A vehicle consisting of two wheels held in a frame one behind the other, propelled by pedals and steered with handlebars attached to the front wheel.

Motorcycle: A two-wheeled vehicle that is powered by a motor and has no pedals.

E-bike: A bike that can be powered by electricity as well as propelled by pedals

As this thread has certainly demonstrated, the generic term E-bike covers an extremely wide range of applications. At one end of the spectrum we have relatively low powered lightweight e-bikes that are still mostly propelled by pedalling with a proportional motor assist. While at the other end of the spectrum we have powerful heavyweight e-bikes with throttles and pedals with high levels of non-proportional assist. Plus about a 100 shades of grey in-between.
Exactly: 100% of what you said is true, accurate...

The down side of the whole thing is when a certain momentum is reached, and mainstream people realize that this is happening, the Law will be changed, and even the low powered true E-Assist bikes will be relegated to the moped category, thus my obvious anti-high power set ups...
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Old 07-31-21, 01:34 PM
  #268  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
even the low powered true E-Assist bikes will be relegated to the moped category,
That might gore your ox but most folks would support it. Pedals and feet on the MUP, motors on the road. Though I think motorized wheelchairs are often permitted for the truly infirm.
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Old 07-31-21, 09:30 PM
  #269  
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If I am understanding correctly the problem youz guys are having is how fast that e bikes can go. If that is the problem then Road bike should be banded from MUP because the average guy can exceed 20 mph on them. So Road bikes and e bikes belong on the road. Simple conclusion for a politician. The walkers go away happy.
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Old 07-31-21, 11:16 PM
  #270  
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Originally Posted by KPREN View Post
So Road bikes and e bikes belong on the road.
^ This. Who wants to bike on a MUP, any way? Leave them to the walkers, joggers, dog walkers, roller skaters, baby carriage pushers, etc.
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Old 08-02-21, 04:41 PM
  #271  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
I am off my bikes for a couple weeks because hips and shoulders were not designed to be slammed into the asphalt at 20 mph.
Although I do not desire or see a motorized bicycle in my future at 57 y/o, circumstances change. For now I am hiking to have some aerobic exercise. I just cannot visualize an e-bike delivering enough of a workout to justify the purchase. I will either hike or ride a bit slower with shorter distances. No shame in that. We age.
64+
No, hips and shoulders aren't designed to be slammed into asphalt at 20 mph. I did that on June 2nd and that was on one of my road bikes. I bought a Trek Domane+ LT and don't understand why anyone would assume you don't get a workout with an ebike. I ride aggressively. On my normal 10 mile daily ride before work, there are 4 spots I sprint on the bike on the way home. I still sprint with the ebike. I still get a workout. However, MY KNEES AREN'T ACHING. Too many snapping kicks in my 20s and thirties from when I was in martial arts. Arthritis in both knees. I pushed through the aching for years. I've worn the neoprene sleeves. I forgot the sleeves this morning and my knees didn't complain. The ebike has been a blessing and a lot of fun.
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Old 08-02-21, 08:15 PM
  #272  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
I am off my bikes for a couple weeks because hips and shoulders were not designed to be slammed into the asphalt at 20 mph.
Although I do not desire or see a motorized bicycle in my future at 57 y/o, circumstances change. For now I am hiking to have some aerobic exercise. I just cannot visualize an e-bike delivering enough of a workout to justify the purchase. I will either hike or ride a bit slower with shorter distances. No shame in that. We age.
You can ride an E-Assist bike and pedal it as hard as you can... Nothing to visualize,, nothing to wonder at, even ride it with the motor off, and not fall prey to the usual "it has a motor" propaganda, that it is not a bicycle, It ALL depends on weather it's a low powered 350 watt or less E-Assist bike that you MUST pedal to go anywhere with a pressure sensor, or an E-Bike with a 500 watt + motor with a throttle or a rotation/cadence sensor that you can ride without actually doing any pedaling... and... Yes, you actually can, still pedal that E-Bike as hard as you can . it's just that one does NOT know how much effort that motor is ACTUALLY putting in, and you may ACTUALLY only be putting in 10% of the effort instead of the 50%+ you may be "thinking" you are putting in...

That is what 10 Years of riding an E-Assist bicycle has taught me, I get to pick how much effort the motor puts into the ride... I can ride my bike 100 % under my own power, or 35% assist from the motor on top of what ever I actually put into the pedaling effort on level 1, or 75 % assist from the motor on top of what ever I put into the pedaling effort on level 2, or 150% level 3, or 300% on level 4, added onto what ever effort I put into the pedaling effort, with a cut off of 40ftLbs max, assistance form the motor in any level...
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Old 08-02-21, 08:16 PM
  #273  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
I am off my bikes for a couple weeks because hips and shoulders were not designed to be slammed into the asphalt at 20 mph.
Although I do not desire or see a motorized bicycle in my future at 57 y/o, circumstances change. For now I am hiking to have some aerobic exercise. I just cannot visualize an e-bike delivering enough of a workout to justify the purchase. I will either hike or ride a bit slower with shorter distances. No shame in that. We age.
You can ride an E-Assist bike and pedal it as hard as you can... Nothing to visualize,, nothing to wonder at, even ride it with the motor off, and not fall prey to the usual "it has a motor" propaganda, that it is not a bicycle, It ALL depends on weather it's a low powered 350 watt or less E-Assist bike that you MUST pedal to go anywhere with a pressure sensor, or an E-Bike with a 500 watt + motor with a throttle or a rotation/cadence sensor that you can ride without actually doing any pedaling... and... Yes, you actually can, still pedal that E-Bike as hard as you can . it's just that one does NOT know how much effort that motor is ACTUALLY putting in, and you may ACTUALLY only be putting in 10% of the effort instead of the 50%+ you may be "thinking" you are putting in...

That is what 10 Years of riding an E-Assist bicycle has taught me, I get to pick how much effort the motor puts into the ride... I can ride my bike 100 % under my own power, or 35% assist from the motor on top of what ever I actually put into the pedaling effort on level 1, or 75 % assist from the motor on top of what ever I put into the pedaling effort on level 2, or 150% level 3, or 300% on level 4, added onto what ever effort I put into the pedaling effort, with a cut off of 29ftLbs max, assistance form the motor in any level...

EDIT; Just in case one does not understand the difference, with a pressure sensor controlling the motor input, compared to the cadence sensor, A cadence sensor will put in what ever level 1, 2 3, or 4 watts are programed into the system, not caring how much pressure the rider is "actually" putting onto the pedals...

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Old 08-02-21, 10:31 PM
  #274  
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^^^^& Good for all the older guys and gals getting their groove on an e-bike.

Just not my thang at this point in life. I do not mind going a bit slower over time or cutting distance. I cannot see dropping several $T's for a motorized bike when pedaling still works. It is not a race at this point but purely for the joy and fitness. If I only manage 7 mph up a 2 mile grade at 6%, that works for me. Doing 12 mph on the same grade with an extra 100 watts at my disposal is not needed.

We have a different vision of what is best for us. No problemo. Best of luck on your journeys.
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Old 08-03-21, 05:23 AM
  #275  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
I do not mind going a bit slower over time or cutting distance.
This seems rational to me. Ride whatever your fitness permits. Or get a motor and enjoy the cruise. What's weird to me is folks going on about watts and miles on their motorbikes.
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