L Arnold

Bikes are bikes at Christmas. Like the Carolers who were in Flanders (was it there?) across the lines in the great war a century ago.

And yes, all the bikes are all worth the money if they make people feel good.
Merry Christmas everyone.

Bonzo Banana

If you are referring to my points I was just making the point that Dahon likely buy in their hydro-formed aluminium frames rather than manufacture them in their own factory as there was no sign of such frames being made in their factory. You often read comments on here saying that bike looks like a rebranded Dahon which seems pretty ridiculous when Dahon likely don't even make such aluminium frames themselves but purchase them elsewhere from one of the large OEM frame manufacturers and some of the Dahon designs may be based on the designs of the actual frame manufacturer. I have absolutely no problem with Dahon's own in-house steel frames being made by hand in their factory. That wasn't the point I was making.

Factories like fuji-ta in China are far more advanced than Dahon and Brompton etc and a source of very high quality frames across a wide range of price levels. Although nowadays its less likely you will get as many complete bikes made at fuji-ta at entry level prices in Europe but you may get a budget aluminium framed bike with one of their frames assembled in a different factory. They only thing I would say in support of Brompton is they have developed their own techniques and technology for making their frames. Engineering a very compact steel folding bike frame with good weight capacity and low weight is not something I think fuji-ta has ever done. Their steel frames are pretty much rapidly made by robot using high tensile steel and likely Dahon's own steel frames are superior. I don't think fuji-ta makes premium end steel frames but they make very high quality aluminium and carbon frames in huge numbers for a huge number of famous bike brands and not so famous brands. Not that this is the only large frame supplier in China just its by far the biggest.

vintagerando

Are Dahons a good choice if you want a bike you can upgrade over time? I am new to the world of folding bikes. I am looking for a "go-face" option; a bike that can mimic my road bike, but is easy to transport in the truck of a car. The price for the option I think would be a match for me are behind what I can pay right now; My thought was to get a folding bike with a good quality frame and upgrade components if I want to later. Is there a model or models in the Dahon that may be better for future upgrade?

kayakindude

That was my approach when buying a Dahon Vybe. I bought it cheap on a post Christmas special and upgraded the freewheel to 11-28, crank to 56t, and pedals to Mk's. Each were easy DIY projects tackled over time. Frame is solid and I plan on upgrading something each winter- but I look at the upgrades more like customising.

L Arnold

Vintagerando, modifications are quite fun and relatively doable.

Dahon's I am actively upgrading are these:

Vitesse I7
Mu N360
Mu D10

Lower end bikes you could do nice upgrades to are
Mariner D8 (more than d7)
Vybe D7

People have discussed their modifications of Curve D3 into what I will call Curve-Speed 8 (fast Curve)

Technically though all bikes can be modified in one way or another.
Most Dahon's are relatively easy to upgrade.

If you just want a nice folding road bike (ie to mimic) probably the best out of the box is the Anniversary replica as it has bullhorn bars and integrated brake shifters. Mu SL11, Mu LT10, Visc D18 are others which you could "roadify" though they are quite good out of the box that way.

If you want "project bikes" always easiest to invest in the frame you want and go from there.

2_i 

Hmm, so the bike share companies can go directly to Fuji-Ta (or however they are transcribed) for their models and completely circumvent the traditional manufacturers.

vintagerando

L Arnold-
Thanks for the information. Here is an affordable Dahon on my local Craigslist. But....it looks like its single speed. The big issue with this is that there is no hanger for a derailleur. The listing has zero info regarding the model. Without a derailleur hanger I would be out of luck "upgrading" this correct? Is this a "Speed Uno"?

L Arnold

Not completely clear which bike that is. Speed Unos in the States don't have a chain guard like that. They also don't have rear v-brakes. Still that looks like a nice bike.

Generally it depends on the frame. That bike you may be able to upgrade to multi speed with an internal hub. Derailleur or hub will first depend on the measure across the rear hub. There are adapters to add a derailleur hanger to such a bike. That said, my goal would first be an internal transmission. Likely narrow span so finding the correct geared hub would be the next step in that direction.

Single speeds, often have a narrower hub span though so proceed with caution. I will verify on a Speed Uno tomorrow but you need to actually check on the bike itself.

Easier to start with a multi speed bike and go uo if that is your intention.

Where are you seeing this bike on offer? See what it is from that countries distributor.

Bonzo Banana

I don't think fuji-ta is a big supplier of bike share bikes. I don't know for sure but there is a video on youtube somewhere of a news report and they visited an area which had the main bike share factories. This was for getbe, ofa etc (I forget all the bike share brands in China) but lots of fairly basic mainly steel step through frame bikes. Fuji-ta I think mainly sell their 'Battle' bikes in the far east and supply OEM bikes to worldwide brands like Cannondale, Raleigh etc. Basically I think any small company can make steel frames, its the oldest technology for bike frames and its hugely competitive with prices at rock bottom. Difficult for companies like Fuji-ta who have invested in expensive manufacturing technology to compete as well with steel frames. They obviously make a huge amount of steel frame bikes but in no way dominate like they do for high quality OEM aluminium frames. Wouldn't surprise me if there was 100 steel frame manufacturers for every 1 export certified aluminium frame manufacturer in China.

I could be wrong but I'm interested in bike manufacturing and read and watch a lot of material on it and that is the general picture I get. Some of the bike manufacturer's selling complete steel folding bikes for a factory door price of $30 are surprisingly small. The margin must be tiny but there is little investment, everyone copies each other's frame designs and they are made of the cheapest possible parts made in very high volume factories. When you see a pair of pedals can cost 30 cents and inner tubes for 20 cents etc you see how its achieved but still incredible value really. I remember seeing a roll of stickers with Shimano branding on. Were they just putting Shimano stickers on the frame or actually rebranding components for the chinese non export models. There isn't much honesty or respect for intellectual property rights in China.

2_i 

Older city run bike shares certainly have klutzy steel frames. However some European share and likely Mobike bikes have alu frames, still klutzy. Ofa bikes are somewhere in-between in terms of styling, so I would not be surprised if they were steel. Mobike evolves their design relying, I suppose, on the fact that in their army of bikes there is also huge turnaround and that new places they expand to require new bikes. However, I understand your point that Fuji-ta aims at more sophisticated products with higher margins.

Bonzo Banana

Looks like I was completely wrong on that. Seems like Fuji-ta is actually one of the driving forces of shared bike manufacturing.


This was the video I was searching for that seemed to indicate a different manufacturers of such bikes.


I think the blue gogo and getbe bikes are made in the second factory of the second video. Fuji-ta have so many factories and that one they show for shared bike manufacturing is completely different and much smaller than their advanced factory where high end fully certified export models are made.

Here in the UK we are still seeing a large number of getb bikes being sold below cost as they clear out un-needed share bikes for a failed sharing scheme. £45 for a bike delivered is amazingly low cost especially when just shipping them to your door is at least a third of that cost I would of thought. Hard to believe. I can walk into my local bike shop and come out with a tyre and a bottle cage for the same money. They are built like tanks as well.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/24-inch-g...4AAOSw2o1ZlpPf

2_i 

Thanks for the links.

You can tolerate the klutziness of those bikes as a price for having one available as you get out of the door and for being able to drop it wherever you want. They literally meet the condition of nobody wanting to steal 'that'. Incidentally for about that price you can buy a geared folder in Beijing Carrefour.

Bonzo Banana

That doesn't surprise me because I've seen the factory prices on alibaba and I think the cheapest geared folder was something like $25-27 but here in the UK to achieve a £45 price is pretty amazing, with VAT, delivery etc. It doesn't leave a huge amount for the bike and to be honest the components look better than a low end folding bike. It has to be well below cost. I don't agree with a lot of EU import protection actually being dumping but it certainly seems that way with these bikes but then they have been manufactured and if not being used for a shared bike they have to be sold. Shame they don't leave the sharing mechanism on them.

2_i 

Come to think of it there is a mechanism in which customers 'steal' the share bikes. They put their own locks on, so nobody else can use them and the bikes are left waiting for them when they come out. Around student housing that becomes a serious problem as you can see a ton of share bikes parked but you need to seek in desperation one on which you can actually ride off.

superzxq

Bonzo Banana, you are not telling the truth, I am living in China and I have friends who works in the bicycle industry, Dahon has been making the aluminum frames by themselves in their factory for many years. Since 2017 they began to outsource the assembly work to Ming Cycle ( A big Taiwanese OEM factory) but the key parts and components still made by Dahon. by the way, Dahon doesn't have a cooperation with Fuji-ta. You can't just make your judge by watching a old video .

Bonzo Banana

So you are stating the reverse of their own manufacturing videos with them actually manufacturing the aluminium frame but a third party assembling the bikes? I didn't say they had cooperation with Fuji-ta I wrote they were likely buying in manufactured aluminium frames as they have done videos of their factories that don't show any aluminium frame production. No signs of hydro-formed tubing or welding aluminium frames but showing steel frame production. If you are making videos designed to market and promote Dahon engineering it would seem likely to show the most advanced manufacturing technology not the most basic.

I'm certainly not trying to mislead I'm trying to gather the information we can knowing that most brands mislead customers about production in order to impress. So many bicycle manufacturers actively mislead customers about their specification and manufacturing processes. Do you have any supporting information?

This is the company you mean?

https://www.mingcycle.com.tw/en/

Being taiwanese based they will be more expensive and the factory looks high quality, lower volume so looks like assembly of Dahon bikes would be for higher end models. Also looks like they wholly own the Strida brand now, which is interesting in itself.

Do you have any information on the exact facility that manufactures Dahon aluminium frames, I assume from what you have stated you know they make aluminium frames and some people that work there. It looks like a facility is manufacturing the aluminium frames and then perhaps supplying the chinese factory, Ming in Taiwan and perhaps Maxcom in Bulgaria. Because Dahon never show this facility I assumed a third party frame manufacturer or multiple frame manufacturers but its sounds like you know which Dahon facility this is? Maybe for low volume more exotic frames they produce themselves but mass market are bought in. There is no reason why it has to be all their own or all third party.

Also you stated 'but the key parts and components still made by Dahon' but you realise most Dahon parts are just components bought from third parties anyway same as most bike manufacturers. Even Dahon branded parts like saddles, derailleurs, cables, brakes etc are all third party sourced?

L Arnold

I've lost track of what the conversation is about.

Superzyq is correct about MingCycle doing some OEM work for Dahon. That is normal. I also understood that many bike companies had difficulties getting bikes built because there were insanely high numbers of orders for share bikes that consumed production possibilities. That is likely effecting the whole market.

There is another thread here about share bikes and their impact on folding bikes...

How companies work changes over time. Likely an older Video there for Dahon.

In an "ideal" world every bike would be made by hand, just down the street. But pricing expectations require certain levels of efficiency which means, for certain bikes, more than for companies as a whole, bigger and more optimized factories.

$45 for a share bike on Alibaba. Did I read that actually?

Bonzo Banana

Fairly recent Dahon video here which I find very confusing.


It shows a very basic assembly line, stack of pre-made frames and then goes on to show the Ford folding bikes being assembled from pre-built frames which was claimed elsewhere were not made by Dahon but imported by them, i.e. completely sourced from a different manufacturer and those frames do look pretty basic and obviously are pre-wrapped as if sourced externally. Just look at the text and then look at what they are actually showing you in the video behind that text. There is no connection at all. If they are hydro-forming the tubes, welding these frames, spraying them why can't they show it? Everything they show is just basic assembly. They have done this now with so many videos. Huge number of bike manufacturers push videos of their fancy manufacturing equipment in your face if you go to their sites showing they are using state of the art machinery but Dahon insist on showing just basic assembly at all times.

I've had a quick look on alibaba and came up with this;

https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...f03b1Jdx0E&s=p

$48 if you order 10,000. The earlier comments where about the clearance of getb share bikes in the UK at £45 delivered which I think were part of a failed share scheme. By the time all costs are taken into account they probably don't get back more than about $20-30 at best. Also folding bikes at a factory door price on alibaba for $25 or so which are quite easy to find.

2_i 

I paid RMB 850 for my first Dahon and a bit more for the second, $110-120 at the time in Beijing. They are Boardwalk level with 6 speeds. There were quality flaws in them, but I was resigned to that. The price included complete dismantling of the bike and some packing for travel that I finished myself. No-name bikes could be had for half that price. By now the bikes had quite a bit of use and hold up, i.e. they are for real.

Pinigis 

I am happy to give you any information that you need on Origami.

captkkk

Well, if we are talking about the folding mechanism which is by the middle hinge and folding side way, there are many options, the most well known ones are the Dahon (Tern) and Oyama.
I owned an Oyama AX-Plus, excellent folder, the prolonged wheel base (1100mm) which gives additional stability up hill as well as down hill, the only give away is the hinge which is located at the middle as most of this kind of folder, problem is, the frame design of the AX-Plus is tend to be slimmer than others, hence the folding box is also comparatively smaller.
Now, i am a 82kg person, so I found the folding box on the AX-Plus may not be as strong to hold me.
So what I decided was to switch to another folder, I spot the Dahon XP frame online and so I bought it back and migrate most of the parts from the AX-Plus.
I am happy with it but I can only show you the picture when I hit 10+ posts here...

tds101 

First off, you quoted a person who hasn't been on the forums since 2018. Secondly, the bike you mentioned in quite nice. The folding mech does seem a bit weak though. Third, and lastly, the bike you're talking about in most likely the Jetstream XP. It's nice, but Dahon has other, higher weight capacity folders available. The Dahon Mariner i7 that I own holds up to 250lbs, and the Dahon HIT can carry a 300lb rider. The Jetstream XP is solid, but rated for up to a 220lb rider.

captkkk

Dahon is alright, all you need to watch out for is the folding box, some also having issues with the head tube as well.

tds101 

Folding hinge, NOT folding box,...

Michael B.

at beginnig I have had some problems with the LockJaw of Cadenza, But now it still works.