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Latex tubes with GP5000 tires?

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Latex tubes with GP5000 tires?

Old 04-29-21, 08:16 PM
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Ataylor
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Latex tubes with GP5000 tires?

I've read that they're "better" with lighter tires. Has this been true in your experience? Some people say using tires like the Turbo Cotton by Specialized or the Corsa G Plus would justify buying a tube like that. I don't know if they mean that you can't feel the benefits (i.e. the speed and comfort) using a heavier tire like the GP5000 or if they mean that it's just not as noticeable a difference. Any thoughts on this?

Didn't want to stuff the subject header with info, but the other thing I was wondering about was whether or not they're good for daily (or maybe every other day) road use. Would it be better to just get lighter butyl tubes for city roads than to use latex? Some say they're not good for everyday use, while others swear by them. Some claim flats no matter how carefully they're installed, while others claim they rarely get flats. I know there's a ton of variables (e.g. installation, road conditions, luck, etc) and I also know that experience is the only way that I can know for sure, but is the topic as polarizing as it seems? Or are there a ton of you that have had no issues yet remain silent? If so, please speak up.

Lastly, maybe a weird question, but how do they go flat? Does air slowly ease out, as is the case most of the time with butyl tubes? Or do they pop and deflate at once? If the latter, is it hard to control the bike when that happens?

Any and all thoughts, comments, opinions are welcome.
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Old 04-29-21, 09:06 PM
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when it comes to "feel", use latex with a light tire, and use it on the front wheel. The reason for this is you want as much more road feedback from the front wheel than from the rear wheel. For the rear wheel, a light butyl tube with a heavier tire (eg, Conti 5000) is preferred for wearablity and not so much for road feel.

Pinch flat. Latex tube, once installed, tend to resist pinch flats becasue latex is much more flexible than butyl and so latex will 'give" instead of pop like butyl.

As for installing. Yes latex takes a little more mindfulness to avoid pinch the tube. The reason for this s latex is soft and it flops around easily, so it's easy to take a lever and press the tire against the latex tube and thus ripping the tube. You need to pump the lates tube up a bit so it can take a cylindrical shape and then carefully squeeze the pumped up latex tube into the rim bed completely, then let some air out before flipping the tire on the rim.

when getting puncture by a staple, latex tube will let out the air slower than a bytle bute, thus allowing you to stop the bike in a safer fashion.

Honestly, the only "downside" to latex is that you do have to pump it daily. Latex is much more porus than butyle so air leaks out overnight. For butyl, you only need to pump once a week.

Lasty, you can patch a latex tube just like a butyl tube. So don't feel like you need to throw a punctured latex tube away!
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Old 04-29-21, 09:53 PM
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I have no experience with latex inner tubes, but keep in mind that there's more rolling resistance on a rear tire and therefore more speed gained by going with a latex inner tube on the rear. Considering BRR has the tubed GP5K fractionally lower than a Turbo Cotton in rolling resistance and significantly lower than a Corsa G+, not sure why you think the latter two are better paired with latex tubes than the former.
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Old 04-30-21, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Ataylor View Post
I've read that they're "better" with lighter tires. Has this been true in your experience?
If you're using a tire that's suppler and has less hysteresis, then the tube makes up a greater proportion of the stiffness and damping of the tube+tire system. In a certain sense I guess you could argue that this increases the relative impact of the tube. But it's not like their benefits just disappear with a beefier tire.
It's like when people argue that weight doesn't matter on a heavy bike. A pound off a 15lb bike makes it 7% lighter, a pound off a 30lb bike makes it 3% lighter, but in both cases it reduces the gravitational cost of raising that bike up a 1000-foot hill by 1355J of energy.

I have one old road bike with 27" wheels, where the low availability of tires in that size means I'm using very basic non-PT Paselas, but I'm happily running latex tubes with them.

Some people say using tires like the Turbo Cotton by Specialized or the Corsa G Plus would justify buying a tube like that. I don't know if they mean that you can't feel the benefits (i.e. the speed and comfort) using a heavier tire like the GP5000 or if they mean that it's just not as noticeable a difference.
What do you mean by "heavier"? Vittoria Corsa is hardly a weight-weenie tire, and it's typically heavier than GP5000 in like-for-like sizing. Turbo Cotton I think tends to be pretty close. And it's not like GP5000 has especially sluggish burly construction, it's a very fast tire that competes well with those other two in rolling performance.

Didn't want to stuff the subject header with info, but the other thing I was wondering about was whether or not they're good for daily (or maybe every other day) road use.
Yes. If anything I seem to get fewer flats on latex than butyl, and they take patches more easily than butyl tubes (you can actually just use pieces of an old latex tube as patches, works great).

Lastly, maybe a weird question, but how do they go flat?
Pretty much how you'd expect a tube to go flat. If a tire takes a big slash from a huge stabby thing, causing a large rupture in the casing and inner tube, then air will exit quite rapidly just like it would with similar damage to any tire setup. With small holes, air escapes gradually, as it does with other tubes.
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Old 04-30-21, 01:07 AM
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people tend to focus way too much on rolling resistance as the sole factor in cycling.
Taking a fast sweeper at 35-40+ mph in a descent, or trailbraking hard around a hairpin at 25 mph, you will quickly learn to appreciate front end control, and that tires that give a good rolling resistance (eg, gp 5000) will give far inferior feed back to a supple tire with latex tube. But sure, if you the money, then go all latex front and back. I have a lot of bikes cost of tubes is a factor for me. While latex tubes can be patched, they are more diffcult to patch due to the slick nature of the tube, and I've patched latex tubes go leaky on me after a while, forcing me to change to a new tubes, and latex tubes cost over 2x more then a light butyl.

Personally, if I'm riding in a group, even in a fast group ride averaging 27-28 mph, I almost never worry about rolling resistance as a factor holding me back. But the ability to take a corner at a higher speed than the guys around me is quite satisfying and energy saving. Rolling resistance will mean nothing if you get dropped coming out of corners.
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Old 04-30-21, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
While latex tubes can be patched, they are more diffcult to patch due to the slick nature of the tube
"Slick nature of the tube"?
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Old 04-30-21, 02:03 AM
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Yep, riders going 27-28 mph definitely don't care about rolling resistance. Just another plot by Big Bike to trick all the gullible rubes into ditching their tubular wheelsets to buy clinchers.
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Old 04-30-21, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Personally, if I'm riding in a group, even in a fast group ride averaging 27-28 mph, I almost never worry about rolling resistance as a factor.
You average 27-28 mph on group rides?
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Old 04-30-21, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
when it comes to "feel", use latex with a light tire, and use it on the front wheel. The reason for this is you want as much more road feedback from the front wheel than from the rear wheel. For the rear wheel, a light butyl tube with a heavier tire (eg, Conti 5000) is preferred for wearablity and not so much for road feel.

Pinch flat. Latex tube, once installed, tend to resist pinch flats becasue latex is much more flexible than butyl and so latex will 'give" instead of pop like butyl.

As for installing. Yes latex takes a little more mindfulness to avoid pinch the tube. The reason for this s latex is soft and it flops around easily, so it's easy to take a lever and press the tire against the latex tube and thus ripping the tube. You need to pump the lates tube up a bit so it can take a cylindrical shape and then carefully squeeze the pumped up latex tube into the rim bed completely, then let some air out before flipping the tire on the rim.

when getting puncture by a staple, latex tube will let out the air slower than a bytle bute, thus allowing you to stop the bike in a safer fashion.

Honestly, the only "downside" to latex is that you do have to pump it daily. Latex is much more porus than butyle so air leaks out overnight. For butyl, you only need to pump once a week.

Lasty, you can patch a latex tube just like a butyl tube. So don't feel like you need to throw a punctured latex tube away!
Thanks for the help and the installation tip. I'll be sure to follow those directions.

Originally Posted by surak View Post
I have no experience with latex inner tubes, but keep in mind that there's more rolling resistance on a rear tire and therefore more speed gained by going with a latex inner tube on the rear. Considering BRR has the tubed GP5K fractionally lower than a Turbo Cotton in rolling resistance and significantly lower than a Corsa G+, not sure why you think the latter two are better paired with latex tubes than the former.
I'm just going off of some of the reviews I've read online. Again, I don't know why they're against heavier tires. Perhaps it has something to do with punctures? They didn't really get into the details. I'm thinking it's because they were all on the same page and what they were saying didn't really need explaining? I don't know. But that's why I was hoping to get some clarity from some of you guys.

So help me understand something. I was under the impression that the lower the watt the less rolling resistance a tire has. In other words, the 7.0 W Corsa Speed G+ 2.0 (TLR) has less rolling resistance (hence the lower number) and thus rolls further than a higher watt wheel. The way I'm reading your post, though, it seems as though you're implying that the opposite is true? If not, then the reason why I came to that conclusion was because less rolling resistance with the Vittoria + the benefits of a "faster" and more comfortable ride with the latex tube is why I imagined they would pair well with one another. Or at least that's why I thought others thought that.

Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
If you're using a tire that's suppler and has less hysteresis, then the tube makes up a greater proportion of the stiffness and damping of the tube+tire system. In a certain sense I guess you could argue that this increases the relative impact of the tube. But it's not like their benefits just disappear with a beefier tire.
It's like when people argue that weight doesn't matter on a heavy bike. A pound off a 15lb bike makes it 7% lighter, a pound off a 30lb bike makes it 3% lighter, but in both cases it reduces the gravitational cost of raising that bike up a 1000-foot hill by 1355J of energy.
Thanks!

Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
What do you mean by "heavier"?
Wasn't sure what word to use. I guess "beefier" is what I meant. So it should it be fine with a latex tube? The GP5000 will reap the same benefits as the Vittoria?

Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Yes. If anything I seem to get fewer flats on latex than butyl, and they take patches more easily than butyl tubes (you can actually just use pieces of an old latex tube as patches, works great).
Nice. Good to hear. What brands do you use? After having contemplated between the Challenge S.C. and the Vittoria Competition tubes, I chose to go with Vittoria, despite the negative reviews about the value issues they have. Wound up picking these up:

https://www.amazon.com/Vittoria-Comp.../dp/B081P5K7DS

Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Pretty much how you'd expect a tube to go flat. If a tire takes a big slash from a huge stabby thing, causing a large rupture in the casing and inner tube, then air will exit quite rapidly just like it would with similar damage to any tire setup. With small holes, air escapes gradually, as it does with other tubes.
Cool, thanks. Just wanted to make sure.

Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
people tend to focus way too much on rolling resistance as the sole factor in cycling.
Taking a fast sweeper at 35-40+ mph in a descent, or trailbraking hard around a hairpin at 25 mph, you will quickly learn to appreciate front end control, and that tires that give a good rolling resistance (eg, gp 5000) will give far inferior feed back to a supple tire with latex tube. But sure, if you the money, then go all latex front and back. I have a lot of bikes cost of tubes is a factor for me. While latex tubes can be patched, they are more diffcult to patch due to the slick nature of the tube, and I've patched latex tubes go leaky on me after a while, forcing me to change to a new tubes, and latex tubes cost over 2x more then a light butyl.

Personally, if I'm riding in a group, even in a fast group ride averaging 27-28 mph, I almost never worry about rolling resistance as a factor holding me back. But the ability to take a corner at a higher speed than the guys around me is quite satisfying and energy saving. Rolling resistance will mean nothing if you get dropped coming out of corners.
Not a pro by any means (neither cycling nor racing) and so correct me if I'm wrong, but lower rolling resistance, as far as I understand, is helpful for longer rides. It means less energy expelled due to a somewhat sluggish roll or feel and that can make both the ride more comfortable and preserve your energy. That's really all I care about. If an increase in speed and slightly less road buzz are an added benefit, then great, but for me it's all about preserving energy and enjoying the ride.
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Old 04-30-21, 04:42 AM
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Latex is more supple and lighter than butyl. They can be used with gp 5000 tyres. Latex doesn't hold air as well as butyl. (Always pump your tyres up before you ride, everytime) and they are more expensive than butyl.
gp5000 are the best tires out there at this time for the money. Period. I run light weight butyl with gp5000 and or the earlier version gp4000sII (I prefer the 4000) The difference is notable even over heavy tubes.
Recently I tried Micheline pro4 endurance tires. They were quite close to 5000 in performance but, I got multiple flat tyres. And I had change them out before I could see how long they would last.
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Old 04-30-21, 07:33 AM
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I use spendy tubes and tires on my race wheels - turbo cottons on my road bike, corsa speed TT bike, both with latex. On my daily driver (Giant TCR) I don't bother and go with butyl tubes and mid range tires, whatever is on sale.

If you don't have dedicated wheels for go-fast time and want to splurge on some every-day type speed, I'd say go for it. It's the most cost-effective speed upgrade one can buy and it does make quite a big difference. Plus the ride feel of a latex tube and supple tire is very nice which makes it enjoyable.
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Old 04-30-21, 07:42 AM
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Why not skip the tube all together and just go tubeless with those tires?
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Old 04-30-21, 08:24 AM
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I would put latex tubes in the same category as bladed spokes, or aero helmets, or skin suits. If you're trying to squeeze out every possible watt, these things will add up, but just adding one of them on their own isn't really going to change normal bike riding, nor will you really notice the saved watts unless you are specifically measuring them. I certainly wouldn't expect any noticeable difference in terms of "ride feel" or reducing "road buzz" with latex tubes vs butyl. This isn't like going from clinchers to tubulars.

Will you preserve energy over a long ride? Marginally. Does a 270 watt effort over 3 hours really feels any different than a 275 watt effort over 3 hours? You'll shave a few minutes I guess.

I'm not saying you shouldn't buy latex tubes and try them out. We're talking about an extra $20 here, so in the scheme of cycling gear this a really cheap upgrade. Is the increased risk of flatting, less durability, air loss "worth it" to save a few watts? Up to you to decide. I know people who run latex tubes every day and love them. These people also own skin suits and aero helmets, and use words like "training" and "effort" more so than "riding".
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Old 04-30-21, 08:36 AM
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I used latex years ago but found them too fussy and too easy to ruin, and so went back to butyl. Years after that, I’ve been happy with road tubeless since ‘13, but now there is Aerothan tubes which claim to offer similar benefits of both latex and tubeless without the hassles of either. I’ve got a pair on hand waiting for my next tire swap, and I’ll see if they’ve got the goods to supplant tubeless.
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Old 04-30-21, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Why not skip the tube all together and just go tubeless with those tires?
because a highend regular clincher with latex is still better overall compared to the best tubeless due to:
-similar rolling resistance as the best tubeless
-better front end feel than tubeless due to more supple tire casing
-easier to maintain

once you get to the 32c+ tire width, then going tubeless makes more sense. Under 32c, not so much.
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Old 04-30-21, 08:40 AM
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Not too much to add here, other than that I run latex tubes in my GP4000s (old stock) for my nice fair-weather wheels and butyl for my winter/training wheels.

I am pleased with them, and I suggest you try them. Yes they are a bit fussy with the install but once set up they do indeed sing sweetly!
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Old 04-30-21, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
because a highend regular clincher with latex is still better overall compared to the best tubeless due to:
-similar rolling resistance as the best tubeless
-better front end feel than tubeless due to more supple tire casing
-easier to maintain

once you get to the 32c+ tire width, then going tubeless makes more sense. Under 32c, not so much.
Better? This may depend on how "high end" you're talking in terms of clinchers.

I can perceive no difference in terms of road feel between latex/ butyl tubes on a 28mm GP5000 clincher running the same pressure. I'm sure the latex tube is faster in terms of rolling resistance and watts, but in a blind test I would have a hard time telling you which one is which if based purely on feel. I've done this A/B test on my own bike.

Tubeless is a different animal entirely, as it introduces the possibility of running tires at lower pressures, which has a huge impact on feel.

I have no idea how 28mm GP5000 tubeless vs tubed (with latex) measure in terms of rolling resistance or watts, but I'm sure that info is out there.
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Old 04-30-21, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Ataylor View Post
So help me understand something. I was under the impression that the lower the watt the less rolling resistance a tire has. In other words, the 7.0 W Corsa Speed G+ 2.0 (TLR) has less rolling resistance (hence the lower number) and thus rolls further than a higher watt wheel. The way I'm reading your post, though, it seems as though you're implying that the opposite is true? If not, then the reason why I came to that conclusion was because less rolling resistance with the Vittoria + the benefits of a "faster" and more comfortable ride with the latex tube is why I imagined they would pair well with one another. Or at least that's why I thought others thought that.
TLR stands for tubeless ready. Casing and construction of tubeless tires are different from their tubed counterparts and generally there is a big rolling resistance penalty when running an inner tube inside one.
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Old 04-30-21, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
Better? This may depend on how "high end" you're talking in terms of clinchers.

I can perceive no difference in terms of road feel between latex/ butyl tubes on a 28mm GP5000 clincher running the same pressure. I'm sure the latex tube is faster in terms of rolling resistance and watts, but in a blind test I would have a hard time telling you which one is which if based purely on feel. I've done this A/B test on my own bike.

Tubeless is a different animal entirely, as it introduces the possibility of running tires at lower pressures, which has a huge impact on feel.

I have no idea how 28mm GP5000 tubeless vs tubed (with latex) measure in terms of rolling resistance or watts, but I'm sure that info is out there.
You perceive no difference because your boundaries of "performance" is narrow, like riding at a constast speed in a straightline.

However, when I'm talking "performance", i'm talking about many factors, like high-G cornering while trailbraking. This is where I'd use latex on the front, this gives me great road feedback into my arms and fingers that are squeezing the lever, and feedback translate to confidence at higher speed.

I personally don't use latex because of its slightly better rolling resistance compared to butyl, main reason being the higher cost of latex.

As for tubeless. I won't use the if the tire size is not at least 32c. Tubeless tires have sidewalls that are too hard (it's necessary for tubeless), and to compensate for the hard sidewall, people run at lower psi. This is fine going in a straightline. The problem is high-g corners. Lower pressure makes the tire tend to "fold" in high-g corners, this gives an ambiguos road feedbak to the fingers. A highend clincher like Veloflex or Vittoria with latex doesn't do this, you can run them at higher psi (to avoid the "folding" feeling) while still getting great road feedback due to the suppleness.

I could also make a counter argument about using tubeless (with low psi) in fast group rides. Low psi will feel like you're acclerating in mud out of corners, and fast group rides we do this a lot, repeatedly, and if you gradually lose positions at every corner, then it's only a matter of time you'll slip off the back. In this setting, I don't care about comfort or rolling resistance, I care about instant acceleration where I won't lose the wheel of the guy in front.

Not everyone is out there doing high-g corners, but than again not everyone is interested in riding in a straight line at constant speed all day either.
The debate of tubeless, regular clincher, latex, butyl,... to me is choosing difference horses for different courses. In the car world, I don't want to bring a soft and comfty truck tire to a road course with flip-flopping high-g corners.
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Old 04-30-21, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
As for tubeless. I won't use the if the tire size is not at least 32c. Tubeless tires have sidewalls that are too hard (it's necessary for tubeless), and to compensate for the hard sidewall, people run at lower psi. This is fine going in a straightline. The problem is high-g corners. Lower pressure makes the tire tend to "fold" in high-g corners, this gives an ambiguos road feedbak to the fingers. A highend clincher like Veloflex or Vittoria with latex doesn't do this, you can run them at higher psi (to avoid the "folding" feeling) while still getting great road feedback due to the suppleness.

I could also make a counter argument about using tubeless (with low psi) in fast group rides. Low psi will feel like you're acclerating in mud out of corners, and fast group rides we do this a lot, repeatedly, and if you gradually lose positions at every corner, then it's only a matter of time you'll slip off the back. In this setting, I don't care about comfort or rolling resistance, I care about instant acceleration where I won't lose the wheel of the guy in front.

Not everyone is out there doing high-g corners, but than again not everyone is interested in riding in a straight line at constant speed all day either.
The debate of tubeless, regular clincher, latex, butyl,... to me is choosing difference horses for different courses. In the car world, I don't want to bring a soft and comfty truck tire to a road course with flip-flopping high-g corners.
Lol.
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Old 04-30-21, 10:56 AM
  #21  
HTupolev
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Originally Posted by Ataylor View Post
Nice. Good to hear. What brands do you use?
Vittoria.
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Old 04-30-21, 10:57 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by nomadmax View Post
You average 27-28 mph on group rides?
I don't average those speeds on the road, but I do average close to those speeds at the velodrome. Handling matters. When I was experimenting with tires, there where some tires that felt fast but handled strangely on the banking. It is difficult to have confidence to go as hard as you can if the bike handles oddly. I eventually settled on Victoria Corsa G+ tires and latex tubes because they make the bike handle in a way that is predictable.
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Old 04-30-21, 10:57 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
You perceive no difference because your boundaries of "performance" is narrow, like riding at a constast speed in a straightline.

However, when I'm talking "performance", i'm talking about many factors, like high-G cornering while trailbraking. This is where I'd use latex on the front, this gives me great road feedback into my arms and fingers that are squeezing the lever, and feedback translate to confidence at higher speed.

I personally don't use latex because of its slightly better rolling resistance compared to butyl, main reason being the higher cost of latex.

As for tubeless. I won't use the if the tire size is not at least 32c. Tubeless tires have sidewalls that are too hard (it's necessary for tubeless), and to compensate for the hard sidewall, people run at lower psi. This is fine going in a straightline. The problem is high-g corners. Lower pressure makes the tire tend to "fold" in high-g corners, this gives an ambiguos road feedbak to the fingers. A highend clincher like Veloflex or Vittoria with latex doesn't do this, you can run them at higher psi (to avoid the "folding" feeling) while still getting great road feedback due to the suppleness.

I could also make a counter argument about using tubeless (with low psi) in fast group rides. Low psi will feel like you're acclerating in mud out of corners, and fast group rides we do this a lot, repeatedly, and if you gradually lose positions at every corner, then it's only a matter of time you'll slip off the back. In this setting, I don't care about comfort or rolling resistance, I care about instant acceleration where I won't lose the wheel of the guy in front.

Not everyone is out there doing high-g corners, but than again not everyone is interested in riding in a straight line at constant speed all day either.
The debate of tubeless, regular clincher, latex, butyl,... to me is choosing difference horses for different courses. In the car world, I don't want to bring a soft and comfty truck tire to a road course with flip-flopping high-g corners.
I'm having a hard time imagining a group ride where cyclists are repeatedly taking corners at such high speeds that cornering grip plays a significant role in staying with the group.

Sounds intense, like a crit race.
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Old 04-30-21, 11:00 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Lol.
oh it's you again, lol and I thought you've put me on ignore?
you know I own you
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Old 04-30-21, 11:25 AM
  #25  
WhyFi
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
oh it's you again, lol and I thought you've put me on ignore?
you know I own you
That post is absurd enough that I could see myself saying that I'd put you on Ignore under the right circumstances, but I clearly didn't get around to it and you're not ringing a bell otherwise - sorry.

Got any other cool, on-topic high-G exploits to tell us, Maverick? Or are you Iceman?
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